Sharing What We Know About Product Penetration
EDS Skin Care Forums Forum Index » Skincare Tools & Do-It-Yourself Skincare

enjoys freebies · Fri Oct 02, 2009 1:26 pm Quote

Yes FatSwan,

We have been trying desperately to figure all of this out!

DM

enjoys freebies · Fri Oct 02, 2009 1:45 pm Quote

Good gosh I must be reading these posts too late into the night! Shock

I thought that thread was about how to mix up a LAA serum without water... Embarassed

Oops. Sorry

enjoys freebies · Fri Oct 02, 2009 2:36 pm Quote

fat_swan wrote:

Good gosh I must be reading these posts too late into the night! Shock

I thought that thread was about how to mix up a LAA serum without water... Embarassed

Oops. Sorry

Don't appologise - you're not the only one hopping from post to post in total confusion about this! Very Happy

I'm not sure about the layering of silicones either. If you use a face primer (which usually has silicones) then it's supposed to go on last because it's meant to stop your foundation from sinking in to the pores. I think the silicones in the Anhydrous C Serum are supposed to make it time released.

I'm now mixing in the penetration enhancer, Dimethyl Isosorbide into my serums. Hope it will be ok.

enjoys freebies · Fri Oct 02, 2009 3:52 pm Quote

Keliu wrote:

fat_swan wrote:

Good gosh I must be reading these posts too late into the night! Shock

I thought that thread was about how to mix up a LAA serum without water... Embarassed

Oops. Sorry

Don't appologise - you're not the only one hopping from post to post in total confusion about this! Very Happy

I'm not sure about the layering of silicones either. If you use a face primer (which usually has silicones) then it's supposed to go on last because it's meant to stop your foundation from sinking in to the pores. I think the silicones in the Anhydrous C Serum are supposed to make it time released.

I'm now mixing in the penetration enhancer, Dimethyl Isosorbide into my serums. Hope it will be ok.

Maybe this will help explain a few things regarding silicone (from Cosmetic Dermatology By Murad Alam, Hayes B. Gladstone, Rebecca Tung, page 9):

"Occlusives are agents designed to reduce TEWL by forming a hydrophobic film on the skin between the corneocytes, Occlusive ingredients are greasy, and function best when applied to slightly dampened skin. Petrolatum can reduce TEWL by 98% and is the most effective occlusive agent. Mineral oil and lanolin also used widely in over-the-counter skin care products, but are less efficacious in preventing TEWL compared with petrolatum. Mineral oil is the main ingredient excluded in oil-free products. Lanolin has been implicated in many cases of allergic contact dermatitis. Silicone derivatives are smoother in texture and less greasy, BUT ALSO HAVE LIMITED ABILITY IN PREVENTING TEWL." (my emphasis added)

And then there is this: Dow Corning Cosmetics & Toiletries: Understanding Factors Which Influence Permeability of Silicones and Their Derivatives. It is a much more thorough technical document, discussing the water permeability of various types of silicones compared to petrolatum.

I think the bottom line is this: silicones are occlusives, but not 100% totally occlusive; they form a water repelling barrier but still allow for some TEWL.

(Apologies to those who dislike scientific studies and technical information LOL)

enjoys freebies · Fri Oct 02, 2009 4:25 pm Quote

Lacy,
I read the same portion of the study you posted, but as it is comparing to two products I don't want near my skin I found it not that helpful. Petroleum and mineral oil are horrid in my opinion.
Silicons still up in the air.
As far as studies I am not against them per se I just wanted to make a very valid (in my opinion) point how studies contradict each other, and experts constantly change their minds. Sorry if my example offended you in any way, not at all my intention. I am not the only one finding all this differing information a wee tad frustrating.

DM Smile

enjoys freebies · Fri Oct 02, 2009 5:12 pm Quote

DarkMoon wrote:

Lacy,
I read the same portion of the study you posted, but as it is comparing to two products I don't want near my skin I found it not that helpful. Petroleum and mineral oil are horrid in my opinion.
Silicons still up in the air.
As far as studies I am not against them per se I just wanted to make a very valid (in my opinion) point how studies contradict each other, and experts constantly change their minds. Sorry if my example offended you in any way, not at all my intention. I am not the only one finding all this differing information a wee tad frustrating.

DM Smile

Not offended in the least, DM (just my sense of humour I guess). To be honest with you, my head spins too when I read technical information; much of it is beyond my ability to grasp little more than the basic gist of the article. I totally understand your dislike of petrolatum and mineral oil; you are not alone in this (and some government agencies are now questioning the use of hydrocarbon derivatives in topical products). My main reason for citing these two documents was to support my statement that silicones are not 100% occlusive. Too often I see opinion confused with "fact"; I was trying to provide some justification for my statement, that's all. The use of petrolatum and mineral oil have been widely used in the past to formulate over-the-counter products as well as prescription topical medications simply because they are effective at forming an occlusive barrier; that doesn't mean they are right for you or that they are completely safe either. It just means they work.

My only comment on studies is this ... new science builds on what is shown in the past; knowledge is build incrementally; sometimes the old knowledge doesn't "stand up" over time and it is replaced with new theories. Always note the source of your information (some are more credible than others). There are no proofs, just "best guesses" at a particular time.

enjoys freebies · Fri Oct 02, 2009 5:56 pm Quote

Lacey,
I actually have quite the warped sense of humor, have to temper it online especially as it can be very difficult for the reader to grasp the tone. I read many a study about mineral oil 30 years ago as most books on pregnancy warned against it's use topically along with petrochemicals period. The reason was that mineral oil will bind with the vitamin in skin rendering them useless!
I do understand that at this time we are finding conflicting information on silicon's. I find it difficult to know just what to believe, I posted earlier how perm solution and hair color don't take if silicon's are left on the hair. This I have seen happen, that said the silicons used in the studies you posted may well be different!
They aren't comparing those and I have yet to find a study that does. I am aware just like motor oil silicones come in many different weights, from thin and fluid as water to thick as Vaseline or even thicker(just can't think of a comparison at the moment).
I am sure this may very well be the best vehicle for an anhydrous C at this time! The big question I ponder is what about other actives, and my beloved EO's and the conflict between a barrier of silicone and the above mentioned products
Basically still confused as to how to incorperate them into a healthy well rounded skincare routine.

GLAD YOU DID NOT TAKE OFFENSE!

DM Shock

enjoys freebies · Fri Oct 02, 2009 6:03 pm Quote

Lacey,
BTW I always use my primer before foundation, I do use MMU but that is what I am sure all my primers recommend???? Am I mistaken?
ETA
Now I can't even find where I just read that, now I know I am losing my poor little mind!
OK found it when you said it goes on last you meant last before foundation, after skin care?
DM

enjoys freebies · Fri Oct 02, 2009 8:09 pm Quote

DarkMoon wrote:

Lacey,
I actually have quite the warped sense of humor, have to temper it online especially as it can be very difficult for the reader to grasp the tone. I read many a study about mineral oil 30 years ago as most books on pregnancy warned against it's use topically along with petrochemicals period. The reason was that mineral oil will bind with the vitamin in skin rendering them useless!
I do understand that at this time we are finding conflicting information on silicon's. I find it difficult to know just what to believe, I posted earlier how perm solution and hair color don't take if silicon's are left on the hair. This I have seen happen, that said the silicons used in the studies you posted may well be different!
They aren't comparing those and I have yet to find a study that does. I am aware just like motor oil silicones come in many different weights, from thin and fluid as water to thick as Vaseline or even thicker(just can't think of a comparison at the moment).
I am sure this may very well be the best vehicle for an anhydrous C at this time! The big question I ponder is what about other actives, and my beloved EO's and the conflict between a barrier of silicone and the above mentioned products
Basically still confused as to how to incorperate them into a healthy well rounded skincare routine.

GLAD YOU DID NOT TAKE OFFENSE!

DM Shock

I am the worst person to ask about silicone primer application recommendations; other than mascara and something on my lips I don't wear makeup as a general rule. On those occasions when I wear full makeup, I use a liquid foundation (just couldn't get the hang of those mineral powder makeups). But I believe you are right ... primer is applied right before mineral makeup.

I totally agree with you about silicones in shampoo, conditioners and styling products. As nice as they are for smoothing the hair and maybe increasing the appearance of shiny hair (which we interpret as healthy), they just seem impossible to wash off completely. It wouldn't surprise me if they interfere somewhat with the absorption of dyes and perming products. I know my hair is always washed by my stylist before she highlights it; she says I have "product buildup" that needs to be removed so the highlights will take. Not sure what shampoo she uses to remove the silicones though (I am blaming the 'cones for the buildup).

If you take a look at the Dow Corning article you will see it directly compares petrolatum, mineral oil, and vaious silicone products (cyclomethicone and various types of dimethicones which have varying chain lengths). Not sure this is what you are looking for ... and it's all too technical for me LOL.

enjoys freebies · Fri Oct 02, 2009 8:44 pm Quote

Lacey,
Don't laugh but as an ex-stylist you would not beleive the evil tricks salons use, Non organic IE: regular baby shampoo has a very high PH and we used it to remove build up, and dye jobs that are too dark LOL. The reason for applying with a brush when coloring is to appear more professional and mysterious! I have never met a stylist who doesn't use just a regular bottle to apply color when doing their own or someone else's hair at home! Marketing trick is what that boils down to!
I had the same issue with MMU, untill I read tips on the Arimaleigh web site and realized when they say a little goes a long way they aren't kidding, I had to get the hang of starting with a tiny amount and layering. Now it is all I use. I managed to get my 2 daughters hooked as well, not sure that was such a great idea as I end up spending a fortune replenishing their supplies.
As to silicone "weights" the article is above my head as to if they are referring to the same thing, I have bottles I purchased off Ebay for craft needs and they have weights measured in numbers all I know on that is the higher the number the thicker it is!
I went through some of the same studying for a+ and Network+ certification, computer tech and a big step below the MCISE Tech heads, I love a lot of it and actually learned to figure math in binary.....Shock. But reading all the technical stuff put me to sleep! It is amazing how the mind shuts out what it doesn't want to absorb. I guess we will muddle through and figure this all out, might be trial and error but as long as I don't melt my face off it will be ok.
DM Bad Grin

enjoys freebies · Sat Oct 03, 2009 12:57 am Quote

Lacy53 wrote:

I totally agree with you about silicones in shampoo, conditioners and styling products. As nice as they are for smoothing the hair and maybe increasing the appearance of shiny hair (which we interpret as healthy), they just seem impossible to wash off completely. It wouldn't surprise me if they interfere somewhat with the absorption of dyes and perming products. I know my hair is always washed by my stylist before she highlights it; she says I have "product buildup" that needs to be removed so the highlights will take. Not sure what shampoo she uses to remove the silicones though (I am blaming the 'cones for the buildup).

I've been using Moroccan Oil on my hair for quite a while now - and it's full of silicones. However, in the blurb on it, it says to use it before a dye job as it will protect the hair. I bleach my hair myself, so I usually apply it to the hair before the bleach. Can't say I've noticed any difficulty in the colour taking.

Also, I do conditioner only washing - and considering I use the Moroccan Oil, hair thickeners and hairspray, I suppose it's a miracle that my hair survives. But I do rinse with ACV once a week.

I'm still undecided about silicones - I suppose I'd rather be silicone free, but then I like what they do. Oh, and I also think there's silicone in my sunscreen, Sofina Nuance UP (which I love), I'd better double check that.

enjoys freebies · Sat Oct 03, 2009 4:54 am Quote

Keliu,
The ACV treatment once a week may just cut
the silicons enough, also bleach is stronger on the hair than regular dye or perms, it could be the whole PH thing. What I know with silicons is I just don't know!
I guess as long as we are not getting silicone injections good enough!!! I think in moderation
it is OK to use some, until the experts come up with the next study. LOL

OH and by the way girls you will all just love this, Dr. Oz yesterday was asked about collagen supplements and he said your stomach acid destroys it before any benefit can be obtained from it, and the only way would be injections. Which he did not recommend.

What is a girl to do!!

DM

enjoys freebies · Wed Oct 07, 2009 8:01 am Quote

Found some additional information related to the penetration topic:

www.revance.com

Incidentally, this is the company behind Relastin.

BF

enjoys freebies · Wed Oct 07, 2009 8:48 am Quote

Hi All,
Just a note I got an email from Sallry's Beauty Supply and they are selling a version of "Moroccan Oil" containing argan oil. I wonder how it will compare to the real deal. Might have to check it out and see. When I get a chance I'll let you all know. If it helps my color treated hair, and combats the constant swamp like humidity I'll be sold!!

HTH
DM

enjoys freebies · Thu Oct 08, 2009 6:15 am Quote

Using a clarisonic before applying face masks and creams i believe would help.

enjoys freebies · Thu Oct 08, 2009 8:30 am Quote

avogrape wrote:

Using a clarisonic before applying face masks and creams i believe would help.

When Santa brings me one I would love to use it! Bad Grin

DM

enjoys freebies · Sat Nov 07, 2009 11:15 am Quote

Quote:

I'm now mixing in the penetration enhancer, Dimethyl Isosorbide into my serums. Hope it will be ok.

Keliu,

Are you adding this to your vitamin C serum? If so, do you think you're getting better results because of it?

Thanks.

enjoys freebies · Sun Nov 08, 2009 1:10 am Quote

Skippie wrote:

Are you adding this to your vitamin C serum? If so, do you think you're getting better results because of it?

Yes, I am adding it to my Vitamin C Serum. Can't say I can see any visible difference - but then I never do! I just hope it's making a difference in terms of penetration and effectiveness - but let's face it, everything takes time!

Sun Nov 08, 2009 3:21 am Quote

Thanks for all of the great tips in here. I find that the heat and hot compress is the best for acne prone skin and it helps serums/moisturisers work even better. But you already knew that Smile

Can vitamin C serums be used on active breakouts or is it best to wait?

I am waiting for my Clarisonic to arrive. Very Happy

So can't wait!

enjoys freebies · Mon Nov 09, 2009 7:28 am Quote

Skippie wrote:

Quote:

I'm now mixing in the penetration enhancer, Dimethyl Isosorbide into my serums. Hope it will be ok.

Keliu,

Are you adding this to your vitamin C serum? If so, do you think you're getting better results because of it?

Thanks.

One more question, Keliu. Are you adding this to your oil-based vitamin c serum?

enjoys freebies · Mon Nov 09, 2009 6:08 pm Quote

Skippie wrote:

One more question, Keliu. Are you adding this to your oil-based vitamin c serum?

No, only to the LAA serum - it's water soluble.

Mon Nov 09, 2009 9:28 pm Quote

Great thread, thanks!!

Me, I try hard not to use any chemicals at all, even my deodorant is natural. It's very difficult sometimes but I try and want to remain cancer free (due to past health problems). I also heard about lipstick from someone else.

As for hair and silicones, I avoid them if I can. There was a list I saw once (forgot the link) that tells you which ones are water soluble or not.

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