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Twinkle66
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Thu Apr 08, 2010 10:09 pm      Reply with quote
foxe wrote:

I do use a retinoid. I've used them for almost 20 years on and off for acne and have tried many different ones.

When I started using CPs in '08, I used Tazorac first, waited about 45 minutes and then used CPs. I stopped using CPs in '09 for most of the year while I tried a new skin care line. When I started up again in the later part of the year, I also started using a different retinoid - Retin A Micro. Retin A Micro has a slow release technology - 'microspheres' and also has a higher pH of 6.0. It's pretty much pH neutral. I now apply my CPs first/let them absorb/then apply the Micro. Since the two products' pH is the same, it's just a matter of making sure the first product is absorbed. I've seen good results doing it this way.


Oh I'm so happy to have found this forum. You guys seem really knowledgeable and I've been trying to get help with this for a while. So thanks for being here!

I've been using a CP serum for a couple of weeks. I'm going to be starting Retin-A micro soon as well. I've been able to find info on advice of using regular retin-a with CPs, but I couldn't find anything regarding the micro gel, as I know that it is slow released and would therefore probably have a longer half life and need to be allowed to absorb longer before you put the CPs on top.

So you put the CPs on first then, do you know if this works with all CP serums, would they all be the same pH? I use a 2nd generation one from a really good Doctor here in Sydney, Australia (though next time I'm going to look into the Skin Biology range you guys are talking about as it seems way better value for money) The ingredients are pretty similar to the Skin Biology CP serum.

So would you recommend I apply this first and as long as it has fully dried then I can apply the retin-a micro. I really don't want the CPs to interfere with the retin-a micro as I'm going to be using it as a maintanence to keep acne away after I finish my accutane course, but I also really want to use use CPs for my pigmentation and scarring.

Also after I use what I have of my CP serum would you reccomend going up to the higher strength Skin Biology's Super CP serum.

Oh dear, I've written so much and feel like I'm demanding a whole lot of info from you. I do appologize! Any help you can give will be greatly appreciated, thanks so much Smile
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Fri Apr 09, 2010 3:31 am      Reply with quote
foxe wrote:
do not use the Bio Active cream at night with your CPs as the Bio Active has Ascorbyl Palmitate (vitamin C) in it. This will cancel out the GHK.


Hi EDSers! I want to comment on a topical Vitamin C and GHK (or 2nd gen CPs) being used together. This is the correct information from Dr. Pickart's right hand wo-man, Cassie.

"Biochemically vitamin C and copper should be opposed to one another, with the copper canceling out the effects of the vitamin C. So in the past we used to advise clients to use their vitamin C products on alternate days than the copper-peptides.

However, in practical application it doesn't seem to be posing as much of a problem as we had once thought. So Dr. Pickart had us remove this suggestion from our websites and printed material.

This could very well be due to the fact that vitamin C is a larger molecule that is very difficult to penetrate the skin topically. So there might not even be enough of vitamin C getting into the skin to pose a problem with the copper-peptides. Or perhaps the so-called vitamin C product has too little of vitamin C in it in the first place (Dr. Pickart recommends that although vitamin C is great for the skin, it is really best taken as an internal supplement).

But we do have many clients who use copper-peptides along with their topical vitamin C products and have reported nothing but great results. It should be fine to use the two together. If clients still are looking at it from a standpoint of what it could possibly do, they can always choose to use it at the opposite end of the day or on days that they are not using copper-peptides. It is up to them. But there are no longer printed instructions advising clients to do so."
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Fri Apr 09, 2010 5:59 am      Reply with quote
Hi Nanci! Thanks for contributing to this thread.

That's great to hear the comment on Vit C from Skin Bio. That is one reason why I don't worry too much with using a C Serum in the AM (w/ CPs at night).

I would still worry, though, about the GHK being exposed to a L-AA Serum since L-AA is very acidic and the GHK is very fragile and is usually recommended to be used at the opposite end of the day with C Serums. The C in the Bio Active product is NOT L-AA, so that might not be a problem w/ GHK

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Star Model
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Fri Apr 09, 2010 6:12 am      Reply with quote
Hi Nanci Smile ,

My take on Vit C and CPs from Dr. Pickart has been that *in theory* that GHK or CPs cancel out topical Vit C. Since Vit C is fragile and has a hard time penetrating the skin, alternating or using on opposite ends of the day may be the best approach to be on the safe side.

For skin brightening though, you still may see positive effects from Vit C when used at the same time as CPs. But it is unlikely that it will do much in collagen production dept. If using at the same time Vit C *may* help to brighten skin with CPs going to work with new collagen production. So using together they would be doing 2 different things.

Since topical Vit C has a difficult time penetrating the skin & needs to be at a low pH to be effective, when using CPs it is most beneficial (if not critical) to take Vit C internally. It boosts new collagen production with CPs cross-linking & bonding to the Vit C to rebuild skin.

Hope that makes sense!
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Fri Apr 09, 2010 6:38 am      Reply with quote
summer2004 wrote:
Anyone here has Latic power 10?

I 'd like to alternate it with Vit C serum in the morning.

Is it as thin as water & soaks in immediately as Vit C does?


I have been using the Lactic Power 10 for a bit over a week. It is a cream base, not a liquid or serum, so a little difficult to make the comparison to vitamin c. I do love it. It is very emollient, so a tiny bit spreads nicely to cover the face and neck. The sample that came from SkinBio was quite generous. I am using the LP10 two nights, and Retin A the third. I will definitely be ordering the LP10 when I've finished the sample. Two thumbs up on this one!

Also...A shout out to those that have contributed to this thread, sharing a wealth of knowledge. It has been so helpful to me on my CP journey, which just passed the four month mark. Thanks for so generously passing along info and experience!! EDS'ers ROCK!! Smile

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Fri Apr 09, 2010 7:35 am      Reply with quote
mangosteen wrote:
I have been using the Lactic Power 10 for a bit over a week. It is a cream base, not a liquid or serum...Also...A shout out to those that have contributed to this thread, sharing a wealth of knowledge. It has been so helpful to me on my CP journey, which just passed the four month mark. Thanks for so generously passing along info and experience!! EDS'ers ROCK!! Smile


Hi Mangosteen,

Your feedback helps me a lot!

Yes, I also love the members here who exchange the low-down and experience candidly.
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Fri Apr 09, 2010 8:21 am      Reply with quote
foxe wrote:
Hi Nanci! Thanks for contributing to this thread.

That's great to hear the comment on Vit C from Skin Bio. That is one reason why I don't worry too much with using a C Serum in the AM (w/ CPs at night).

I would still worry, though, about the GHK being exposed to a L-AA Serum since L-AA is very acidic and the GHK is very fragile and is usually recommended to be used at the opposite end of the day with C Serums. The C in the Bio Active product is NOT L-AA, so that might not be a problem w/ GHK


Better safe than sorry regarding GHK Foxe. I don't use a topical Vitamin C product, but since the L-AA is so acidic, I'd use it at the opposite end of the day myself - just in case..... There is such a tiny amount of Vit. C in the Bio-Active products, it doesn't matter - it's way down on the ingredient list. Another important point is that a topical C product does not cancel out the effects of Copper Peptide - it used to be thought that Copper Peptide cancels out the effects of the Vitamin C. But Dr. Pickart is saying he's finding that not to be true any longer. I asked specifically about both the first and second generation CPs.
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Fri Apr 09, 2010 8:29 am      Reply with quote
Star Model wrote:
Hi Nanci Smile ,

My take on Vit C and CPs from Dr. Pickart has been that *in theory* that GHK or CPs cancel out topical Vit C. Since Vit C is fragile and has a hard time penetrating the skin, alternating or using on opposite ends of the day may be the best approach to be on the safe side.

For skin brightening though, you still may see positive effects from Vit C when used at the same time as CPs. But it is unlikely that it will do much in collagen production dept. If using at the same time Vit C *may* help to brighten skin with CPs going to work with new collagen production. So using together they would be doing 2 different things.

Since topical Vit C has a difficult time penetrating the skin & needs to be at a low pH to be effective, when using CPs it is most beneficial (if not critical) to take Vit C internally. It boosts new collagen production with CPs cross-linking & bonding to the Vit C to rebuild skin.

Hope that makes sense!


Hi Star Model, sure does make sense (see my prior post to Foxe). And you're correct about taking Vitamin C internally being critical - it is absolutely critical. Taking Vitamin C (500-1,000 mg. a day) internally when using CP is what improves skin firmness (elasticity) so much. Without taking Vit. C, you can't get the tightening effect. The fibroblasts use an enzyme called lysyl oxidase to connect the collagen strands, which requires both CP and a Vit. C supplement. It really does work!
rileygirl
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Fri Apr 09, 2010 8:31 am      Reply with quote
NCN wrote:
Taking Vitamin C (500-1,000 mg. a day) internally when using CP is what improves skin firmness (elasticity) so much. Without taking Vit. C, you can't get the tightening effect.


So, the CP's by themselves will not cause firmness/tightening? They require internal supplementation?
NCN
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Fri Apr 09, 2010 8:35 am      Reply with quote
Yes! Absolutely!!!
Leggy 61
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Fri Apr 09, 2010 8:46 am      Reply with quote
This is the first time I have heard of this also,fortunately I take 1000mg a day so I guess I'm safe,something new everyday to learn!!!
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Fri Apr 09, 2010 8:57 am      Reply with quote
It REALLY should be written on each and every bottle from Dr. Pickart, but it isn't..... and so important!
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Fri Apr 09, 2010 8:59 am      Reply with quote
NCN,I'm using the Pure & Simple after acid free exfoliating serum,matrixyl,bio active day cream.I wait in between each product,but the S.S balls up on me.I don't have that problem if I use it by itself,can you help?
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Fri Apr 09, 2010 9:07 am      Reply with quote
Leggy 61 wrote:
NCN,I'm using the Pure & Simple after acid free exfoliating serum,matrixyl,bio active day cream.I wait in between each product,but the S.S balls up on me.I don't have that problem if I use it by itself,can you help?


Oh Leggy 61, I can't STAND it when anything balls up on me! Try applying your S.S. right after your Bio-Active Day Cream without a wait period....
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Fri Apr 09, 2010 9:11 am      Reply with quote
Hi Nanci,

Can I just take Vit C, not MSM?

I am a person who do not want to take any health supplement as I do have a balanced diet and do cast doubts on their quality control & ingredients.
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Fri Apr 09, 2010 9:22 am      Reply with quote
NCN wrote:
It REALLY should be written on each and every bottle from Dr. Pickart, but it isn't..... and so important!


Thank you Nanci! Very Happy
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Fri Apr 09, 2010 9:43 am      Reply with quote
Hi Summer2004, certainly you don't need supplements if you're getting enough Vitamin C every day through your diet. Not easy to get 1,000 mg. a day that way though. To get 577 mg. of vitamin C, here's an example of what you would need to eat daily:

Eat one orange (53 milligrams), a kiwi (98 milligrams), one 3.5-ounce serving of cooked broccoli (75 milligrams), and one 3.5-ounce serving of cooked cauliflower (31 milligrams). If you want 500 milligrams, just add a 9-ounce glass of fresh orange juice (130 milligrams) and a 3.5-ounce serving of raw red peppers (190 milligrams).

MSM is very difficult to get through food - mostly because it's lost when food is cooked. MSM supplies the sulfur needed for the production of skin proteins. Take it for 2 months and you'll see a noticeable difference not only in your skin, but your hair and nails as well. Foods high in MSM (if not cooked) are Asparagus, Brussel Sprouts, Cabbage, Cauliflower, Garlic, Horseradish, Milk (non-pasteurized), mustard, onions, radishes, red hot peppers. I'm sorry I don't have the mg equivalents for you!
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Fri Apr 09, 2010 9:46 am      Reply with quote
rileygirl wrote:
NCN wrote:
It REALLY should be written on each and every bottle from Dr. Pickart, but it isn't..... and so important!


Thank you Nanci! Very Happy


You're welcome rileygirl! xo
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Fri Apr 09, 2010 10:02 am      Reply with quote
Nanci,

Thx for your prompt reply!

OK, I'll take Vit C & MSM for a couple of months to see if they'd enhance the benefits of CP.
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Fri Apr 09, 2010 10:59 am      Reply with quote
NCN wrote:
Star Model wrote:
Hi Nanci Smile ,

My take on Vit C and CPs from Dr. Pickart has been that *in theory* that GHK or CPs cancel out topical Vit C. Since Vit C is fragile and has a hard time penetrating the skin, alternating or using on opposite ends of the day may be the best approach to be on the safe side.

For skin brightening though, you still may see positive effects from Vit C when used at the same time as CPs. But it is unlikely that it will do much in collagen production dept. If using at the same time Vit C *may* help to brighten skin with CPs going to work with new collagen production. So using together they would be doing 2 different things.

Since topical Vit C has a difficult time penetrating the skin & needs to be at a low pH to be effective, when using CPs it is most beneficial (if not critical) to take Vit C internally. It boosts new collagen production with CPs cross-linking & bonding to the Vit C to rebuild skin.

Hope that makes sense!


Hi Star Model, sure does make sense (see my prior post to Foxe). And you're correct about taking Vitamin C internally being critical - it is absolutely critical. Taking Vitamin C (500-1,000 mg. a day) internally when using CP is what improves skin firmness (elasticity) so much. Without taking Vit. C, you can't get the tightening effect. The fibroblasts use an enzyme called lysyl oxidase to connect the collagen strands, which requires both CP and a Vit. C supplement. It really does work!


Yes Nanci, It really does work! Very Happy

My skin not just on my face, but my whole body is as tight as a drum considering my age. I no longer use Two Timing Tightener(DMAE)for extra tightening. Dr. Pickart recommends 500 - 1,000 mg Vit C ea. day, but I do not think many realize the importance of it as a supplement. Brick wall

This is one of the easier things we can do. Sometimes I think we are looking for a "fancy named, higher priced product" like "Booster C" or "C Builder" to get our attention. Laughing

All it takes is a simple inexpensive supplement.
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Fri Apr 09, 2010 1:00 pm      Reply with quote
It is because of Dr. Pickart I started taking both MSM and Vitamin C in larger doses when I was using CP's the first time around and continued the habit.
I use a powdered C product as I think this results in better absorption in most cases. Also powdered MSM.
Hi Nanci - Nice to see you here. Thanks for helping us out. ~Sis

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Fri Apr 09, 2010 1:16 pm      Reply with quote
How much MSM is recommended to take?

Another question I have is if a person is using Retin A does the Day Cover give adequate SS protection? Thanks.
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Fri Apr 09, 2010 2:10 pm      Reply with quote
brierrose - As far as I can recollect it is recommended 2:1 MSM to Vitamin C. Example: 2000 MSM to 1000 C. I probably take higher amounts of both.

Anyone know differently please feel free to chime in.

Can't answer the day cover question - This one is for Star.

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Fri Apr 09, 2010 3:06 pm      Reply with quote
Nanci - thank you, thank you so much for sharing your wealth of info on this thread - it's contributed so much to it.

I take 1 gr (1000mg) each of Vitamin C and MSM due to hearing about it from all my research on CPs (and most certainly, from Dr P always stressing it). You, my dear, have explained it way better though.

And, this might also be why I have experienced such great results with CPs Smile .

BTW - it is better to take your vitamin C divided into 2 doses of 500mg each twice per day rather than one 1gr dose. What your body does not need will be eliminated through your urine. I take a slow release version myself.

sister sweets wrote:
brierrose - As far as I can recollect it is recommended 2:1 MSM to Vitamin C. Example: 2000 MSM to 1000 C. I probably take higher amounts of both.


sis - I thought the amt was 1 gr each, but Dr P often gives differing advice, so I can't be certain. I am sure I've read that the minimum should be 1 gr each at least. But, if you included some C in your diet as Nanci mentioned, then a 500mg dose of C should do it.

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Fri Apr 09, 2010 5:19 pm      Reply with quote
I divide both the MSM and the C into at least two different times of day = half of C is from a powdered source and the other half is from grapefruit, smoothies, lemons, etc - trying to separate these out throughout the day. I love C sources of foods so I know I get lots of this.

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