Eyes - face exercise
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free skin care · Sat Mar 01, 2014 11:01 am

Deb Crowley wrote:

bob44 wrote:

hey guys,

Can we just stick to the topic?

question - anyone have results with vigorous eye massage?

the end goal of this topic is to discuss the long term effects of eye massage.

Simply put, what some of you have said in pages can be condensed to a paragraph at most.

I really liked the last responses by LouLou and ATester where it can help but you will have puffiness for a day after, which makes logical sense. But my question is, do you think 2 or 3 days after your eyes are better off than they were a week ago? Does the massage cause fine lines and wrinkles?

I appreciate all your responses as they are informative, but please try to stay on the topic Smile

Thanks!

Hi Bob,

In answer to your questions.. I have vigorously trained my eyes (rub, pull, stretched...you name it) for over 30 years. I'm serious when I say I doubt anyone on this planet has taken it to the limits that I have. Bottom line...Where is the damage?

The answer to your question... "In two or three days look better?"...
Now that's more of a stretch than my training Laughing

You really have to be in for the hall.. however long it takes (everyone is different)

Please Note: I don't own a monopoly on eye training; any and all eye training offers results, and there are so many programs to choose from!

I had put these pics up before. but they didn't take. trying again.

Again.. where is the damage?

Hey Deb, another question. When you had started this rubbing did you ever question it? Looked in the mirror and were like "oops, what have I done"? And then just continued to stick through it, or did none of this occur and it was smooth sailing the whole way through?

thanks.

free skin care · Sat Mar 01, 2014 11:37 am

Bob44,

My 2 cents:

* I have very aggressively trained my eyes, like I am currently doing 11 sets per day on 5 different places on the orbicularis oculi muscle, 2 days a week on different parts of my eye muscle...My eyes look great and are probably my youngest looking feature. But I've been doing facial exercises for years and have worked up to this.

* On the question of whether you can do too much for this area, the answer is YES. The amount that you should do to see good results will vary from person to person. If you just starting out or are older, you can run into issues if you are training too hard. It's common sense and applies to any type of exercise: it's possible to do too much (or too little).

My personal opinion is that there are more people who do too little (not facial exercising at all or not doing any resistance facial exercises when they would benefit from building more volume in their face), than there are people who are doing too much.

So if you don't do massage or do exercises for the eyes, then yes, I think you are missing out.

However, how much to do (much aggressive and what exercises to do, how often to train, etc.) is a personal question that no one can answer for you. You have to learn by experimenting to figure out what works best for your own eyes. . Make sense?

HTH Smile

free skin care · Sat Mar 01, 2014 2:12 pm

ok, so i def have gotten permanent wrinkles from doing face exercises

i do Ageless with some Flex Effect and a few other exercises from elsewhere (i did Ageless for over a year before i added the other exercises)and i could see from the beginning that the Ageless exercises (especially the cheek exercises) were creating wrinkles that i just Knew would be permanent

sometimes we just Know something about ourseves, physically, spiritually, emotionally..and this 'something' that we Know is true for who we are..in this moment of time...not because of a 'fault' in ourselves but just because for our particular path, destiny, genetic make-up, dosha, etc..it just IS that way.

I was 64 when i started doing facial exercises..had barely any wrinkles at the time...have eaten exceptionally well (for who i am and my particular path)since i was in my mid twenties...but, yes, my skin wasn't perfect..

someone could always suggest something else i could do to change the fact that my skin wrinkled with facial exercises...but honestly that can be an unending process..

because ultimaely it comes down to ..if i were just someone else..with dif perceptions, emotions, skin quality, etc. etc... all of life, including facial exercises, would just come out perfectly 'for me' just the same way it comes out perfectly for some others...who have dif qualities, emotions, percptions, genetics, paths, etc.

of course, IMO, this isn't..can't...be true

i spend a lot of time in india..and i have come to appreciate tradional indian medicine(ayurvedic)..which classifies people according to three dosha types..with dif physical features as well as dif emotional/spiritual qualitities...

one type of dosha , for example, has qualities of very thin dry ultra sensitive skin...and no matter what is done to balance this dosha..a vata tpe skin is always going to be more dryish, delicate, wrinkle-prone, sensitive than a kapha type skin, for example which is thick, oily, resilient.

the same kind of facial exercise, massage, manipulation, diet, just isn't going to have the same outcome for people in both dosha types..in fact what balances one type will unbalance the other type..

for example...i have read on the flex effect board itself, from a women who had been doing Flex effect for many yeas.. who had no issues with the program itself...and was still engaged in it..who was just honestly reflecting that if she could begin all over with the program she would eliminate all pulling on her skin

personally i continued to do Ageless because i felt at the time...and still do ...that it was a worthwhile exchange to substitute wrinkles for potential sag (now 4 years later i have more of both..but def see a major dif when i am doing face exercises..at least in the sag..but not in the wrinkles...i do other things for wrinkles.

so i am grateful for all who pioneer and hold creatively to the facial programs they have manifested..but also wish all would realize that what works for one (or many) may not work for you.

free skin care · Sat Mar 01, 2014 2:42 pm

I also think that the reaction is more individual - imho it would be unrealistic to expect a person with thick oily skin to react the same way as the one with dry very thin skin.

I was always very curious about facial exercises, but somehow was very reluctant to start a program. I tried Ageless (did not like it); FE (was concerned about "uglies") and now got CFF. The one which I started and am beginning to see some results after a few weeks is Tom Haggart's one.

There is also a research by an European anti-aging guru, who is against most exercise programs (but of course has her own "technique" how to achieve the results - the premise in short: some muscles are in hypo tonus and some in hyper - so while some do need strength training the other need to be relaxed). One of the components of her method is vacuum cups massage (including under eye area with anchoring skin with fingers to avoid mishaps) and bone stimulation.

The other technique which I am learning and loving so far is Gua Sha massage - thank you JR for introducing it. They also have several movements for upper and lower lid.

HTH

free skin care · Sat Mar 01, 2014 3:50 pm

sigma wrote:

I also think that the reaction is more individual - imho it would be unrealistic to expect a person with thick oily skin to react the same way as the one with dry very thin skin.

I was always very curious about facial exercises, but somehow was very reluctant to start a program. I tried Ageless (did not like it); FE (was concerned about "uglies") and now got CFF. The one which I started and am beginning to see some results after a few weeks is Tom Haggart's one.

There is also a research by an European anti-aging guru, who is against most exercise programs (but of course has her own "technique" how to achieve the results - the premise in short: some muscles are in hypo tonus and some in hyper - so while some do need strength training the other need to be relaxed). One of the components of her method is vacuum cups massage (including under eye area with anchoring skin with fingers to avoid mishaps) and bone stimulation.

The other technique which I am learning and loving so far is Gua Sha massage - thank you JR for introducing it. They also have several movements for upper and lower lid.

HTH

Hi there,

I know you were not asking for the following explanation... but thought it a good opportunity to clear up a few misconceptions.

When you hear the expression "The Uglies" when talking about FlexEffect, know that this expression has to do with Copper Peptide... a product I promoted in the FlexEffect book. It is referring to the skin becoming SLACK after repeated use of the serum (not giving the skin time to adjust to it.) Naturally, the skin would become firm again but during the time someone was dealing with it they called it..."the uglies". Since you more than likely were hearing this expressive term coming solely from Flexers, I can certainly understand your line of thought. But again, that expression has to do with a serum not a response to training.

The expression Awkward Stages again came from me (found in my book) that has to do with one muscle building faster than another... not quite the look you would be going for but for some its part of the process. Simply put, a little time is needed for the slower muscle to catch-up.

Overbuild (more muscle size than you want) that term too is in my book, with a thorough explanation as to why and how it can happen, and what to do about it if it does.

Thanks for this opportunity. Smile

free skin care · Sat Mar 01, 2014 5:16 pm

sigma wrote:

There is also a research by an European anti-aging guru, who is against most exercise programs (but of course has her own "technique" how to achieve the results - the premise in short: some muscles are in hypo tonus and some in hyper - so while some do need strength training the other need to be relaxed). One of the components of her method is vacuum cups massage (including under eye area with anchoring skin with fingers to avoid mishaps) and bone stimulation.

Hi sigma, Can you let us know who the above person is? Sounds very interesting.

I also like using my Gua Sha board.

Take care.

free skin care · Sat Mar 01, 2014 9:28 pm

Packratmack,

her name is Natalia Osminina and her method is called Revitonica. I am not sure they have a program in English, but they were planning to come up with one. She is a very educated lady (Ph.D. in some subject, I believe some area of bio-engineering), who spend years researching the facial aging mechanisms (there used to be something similar to NIH grants in the past so people had the luxury to study esoteric subjects). Her program is very time consuming and consists of some cranial manipulations - I tried it but did not have the luxury of time to dedicate to it.

HTH

free skin care · Sat Mar 01, 2014 11:17 pm

Oh dear, how extreme this is getting Surprised

!

I think each programme has things to offer and things that might not work for you. I have searched around and taken the exercises that work for me from various programmes:

I started out with FE and now use mainly Ageless if you Dare (lovely and quick, Loulou Smile

) and Tom Hagerty's scalp exercise and the CFF neck brush, with some FE things too. I felt the full FE programme took quite a long time and took a bit more work than I needed. I think someone's muscle response will help decide how much work to do: the Ageless programme seems to be plenty for me.

Deb Crowley has done great work and especially in the new FE book added an extremely important feature: maintenance of bone structure. As soon as I feel I need that (no doubt within the next 10 years), I'll be using my FE bone exercises (relevant structure around eyes too).

I also use needling, though I think Deb does not approve of needling (please correct me if that's incorrect, Deb). I find it's something that deals with areas all exercises (including years of FE) weren't fixing (parenthesis lines, upper lip lines, forehead lines).

free skin care · Sat Mar 01, 2014 11:29 pm

PS: the worst my eyes ever looked was 4 years ago, when I got slack about my diet and didn't eat enough protein. My eyes became very puffy and looked about 10 years or more older! So strong, healthy skin for me at least requires plenty of protein.

free skin care · Mon Mar 03, 2014 11:02 am

bob44 wrote:

Hey Deb, another question. When you had started this rubbing did you ever question it? Looked in the mirror and were like "oops, what have I done"? And then just continued to stick through it, or did none of this occur and it was smooth sailing the whole way through?

thanks.

My first attempt with facial exercise was Isotonic training (no resistance) I was in my mid twenties... no problem with the exercises and I loved what I saw... began teaching what I had learned.

Several years later (early 30's) stepped into competitive bodybuilding and that's when I developed Facial Resistance Training (Facialbuilding) At times I would overbuild an area (teaching) but with my knowledge of muscle and knowing what I needed to do (simply back-off)...again no problem.

Fast forward (60s) new set of problems due to age... bone loss, and an obvious need for more ways to challenge the skin. I then developed Pressure Reps for bone, Cross Stretching for skin.

To answer your question... Because my face was obviously prepped from one stage to the next EVERYTHING I did was without problem. Like you said "smooth sailing"

I would say anyone can start Facialbuilding (forgoing isotonic) and be way ahead of the game... But, first read how muscle responds to such training i.e., fast twitch, slow twitch muscle fiber (how one area can and will build faster than another) and how to prevent or deal with overbuild... all in the book

Bone Remodeling... One can start this at anytime...I would say no later than 40+.

Cross Stretching... As stated in the book START SLOW.. create a routine that suits you.

Cross Stretching is not the same as rubbing the skin.... You can rub the surface of a flat rubber band or stretch the rubber band.
That is NOT to say rubbing the skin is not beneficial... it most definitely is. You will find that technique in CFF... She goes after wrinkles with this technique aggressively...And, it works!

BTW: In my last post to you... I meant haul not hall...good God...these post can be soooo unforgiving Rolling Eyes

free skin care · Mon Mar 03, 2014 11:12 am

Needl wrote:

Oh dear, how extreme this is getting Surprised

!

I think each programme has things to offer and things that might not work for you. I have searched around and taken the exercises that work for me from various programmes:

I started out with FE and now use mainly Ageless if you Dare (lovely and quick, Loulou Smile

) and Tom Hagerty's scalp exercise and the CFF neck brush, with some FE things too. I felt the full FE programme took quite a long time and took a bit more work than I needed. I think someone's muscle response will help decide how much work to do: the Ageless programme seems to be plenty for me.

Deb Crowley has done great work and especially in the new FE book added an extremely important feature: maintenance of bone structure. As soon as I feel I need that (no doubt within the next 10 years), I'll be using my FE bone exercises (relevant structure around eyes too).

I also use needling, though I think Deb does not approve of needling (please correct me if that's incorrect, Deb). I find it's something that deals with areas all exercises (including years of FE) weren't fixing (parenthesis lines, upper lip lines, forehead lines).

Hi You!

Actually I know needling works. Again, a little damage can go a long way in improving the skin... I'm just too big of a baby with this one Shock

free skin care · Mon Mar 03, 2014 1:00 pm

Deb,

Do you think that pressure reps and jolting prevent the loss of bone, or do you think that they can also stimulate new bone growth? Have you see any evidence of new bone growing since you've been doing these techniques?

free skin care · Mon Mar 03, 2014 3:24 pm

Oooo, love this healthy discussion of techniques and results!

I have a question about fine lines around the eyes (especially directly under the eyes and to the immediate corner) and facial exercise and massage: For a about a month or more, I have been actively, almost daily doing eye exercises, several from CFF, as well as a forehead exercise or two, and have only seen many, many fine expression lines worsen as well as slight sagging of upper eye area. So in short, I seem to have made things worse.

Now, it is the longest, coldest winter and the indoor air is probably sahara-like humidity-wise, but I am wondering what to do differently... do I back off because the slight sag means overwork? or do I begin aggressive massage/pinch/roll (I do not do this yet)? or do I gently rub? Do I do more intense exercising?

This lack of results (or backpeddling) doesn't scare me away completely because I used skin rubbing and facial exercises to deal with my nasolabial lines and have had excellent results. It took over a year, though-- and if I slack off on rubbing or exercising, I can tell right away!

Thank you to everyone participating in the topic! So nice to share knowledge Smile

p.s. My signature is outdated-- I am 34 now.

free skin care · Mon Mar 03, 2014 3:39 pm

cm5597 wrote:

Deb,

Do you think that pressure reps and jolting prevent the loss of bone, or do you think that they can also stimulate new bone growth? Have you see any evidence of new bone growing since you've been doing these techniques?

Hi CM!

Absolutely... Think about it, if Bone Remodeling does one... it does the other.

As for what changes have I made... I can REALLY see a difference in my skin through Cross Stretching (huge difference) for this reason I can't yet gauge how much of the change in my face has to do with my bone density ...I'm assuming it's all playing out together. Remember, I said I developed those two new disciplines because I didn't like what I was beginning to see...muscle was there but things were no longer looking right. It took aging a little more to realize more would be needed.

By looking at my eyes today one can clearly see no trace of 'hollowing' And, at my age, bone loss (hollowing) around the eyes is a given.

free skin care · Fri Mar 07, 2014 4:46 pm

Thanks, Deb! So you do think that if someone has hollowed out eyes, that they can increase their bone mass in the orbital bone therefore reducing the look of hollowed, deep-set eyes..?? Is this like with gauntness in that you think someone could improve bone mass but still not completely rebuild what has been lost?

free skin care · Fri Mar 07, 2014 4:58 pm

sigma wrote:

Packratmack,

her name is Natalia Osminina and her method is called Revitonica. I am not sure they have a program in English, but they were planning to come up with one. She is a very educated lady (Ph.D. in some subject, I believe some area of bio-engineering), who spend years researching the facial aging mechanisms (there used to be something similar to NIH grants in the past so people had the luxury to study esoteric subjects). Her program is very time consuming and consists of some cranial manipulations - I tried it but did not have the luxury of time to dedicate to it.

HTH

How old is Natalia Osminina? What does her program include: just facial exercise, or also massage, lymphatic drainage, etc.? To view or get a sense of her methods, what do you recommend?

free skin care · Sun Mar 16, 2014 9:14 am

Do eye exercises help with ptosis or it could make it worst?

free skin care · Sun Mar 16, 2014 12:54 pm

Pablita wrote:

Do eye exercises help with ptosis or it could make it worst?

Hi Pablita,

If you were born with ptosis it is caused by poor developemt of the muscle that lifts the eyelid (leavator muscle) It usually doesn't improve overtime.

With children, they sometimes patch the good eye to work and strengthen the weaker one ... That pretty musch says it all.

So, do I think that eyelid resistance training can be affective? Absolutely.

BTW Surgery can cause a multitude of problems. Shortening of the muscle (to lift the lid) usualy causes even more weakning of the muscle..sometimes calling for another surgery down the road.

free skin care · Sun Mar 16, 2014 1:27 pm

Thanks Deb,

I was not born with ptosis. I first notice a loss of volume on my left eyelid and something like an extra crease but the wierd thing is that it is only noticiable at the end of the day and only some days. I went to many plastic surgeons that did not see any problem on my eyelid because at day time it looks fine maybe just with a bit less volume than the other eyelid. I took pictures at night and show them but they did not know what to do as each time thy saw me the eye looked right.
I got in the place where te extra fold is at night co2 fractionates laser which caused me to lose more volumen in that area.

Looking for a doctor that would inject restylane on my upper eyelids i went to an oculoplastic doctor who tested me and told me i have very mild ptosis on that eye that only shows at the end of the day and latent ptosis on the other eye.

I was tested for myasthenia but i dont have that and he sayd i have aponeurotic ptosis by deshicence of the levator.

Solucion should be surgery but he tested the result i will ger by giving me some eye drops and my eyes wont look completely symmetrical with the surgery, as if he just repair my left eye the other will drop cos of the latent ptosis.
As is not very noticiable he told me to wait 3 months and comeback to clinic to see how my eyes are doing.
I was doing some facercise eye exercises and he told me to stop doing them because i was going to make my ptosis worse.
I though it was strange for hin to say that as i had read that eye exercises could help with ptosis.

For my case do you think eye exercises will help?
I was not seein any improvement on eyes with facercise, i got resulta obly on cheeks with them, so i may need to change to FE for sronger exercises to help me with the night ptosis anf the loss of volume.
Problem is that mu eye crease get higher at the end of the day, leaving me eith 2 creases at night

free skin care · Wed Mar 19, 2014 8:15 pm

Pablita, check your PM Very Happy

free skin care · Thu Mar 20, 2014 1:46 pm

Thanks very much Deb Smile

free skin care · Fri Mar 21, 2014 6:14 pm

I was just reading back over jasminerosey's previous post about different doshas responding differently to exercise and was wondering about the dry, thin skin dosha and its response to facial exercise.

As I mentioned in my earlier post in this thread, I have been working the skin and muscles around my eyes for months now and do not see any major improvements in the lines under my eyes (mainly visible during expression). Is it possible it is because my skin is naturally more dry/thin? Or has anyone with dry, delicate skin actually seen his or her skin thickening and lines diminishing with facial exercise? I'm just wondering if I should keep it up or try something else...

free skin care · Wed Mar 26, 2014 1:34 am

Its the one called Debs photos.

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