DermaRoller
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Sat Jul 19, 2014 4:07 am

Hello there EDS peeps! I am profoundly grateful to have been introduced to a very informative site that caters to all women-centric woes Smile

I would like to share my personal experience with microneedling. My first introduction was via a derma-assisted procedure where a derma pen was used. I had 4 sessions in total with downtime normally lasting for 3-4 days. Treatment was started last year and its been past 6 mos. since I had the last session.

The interval bet treatment sessions was at an average of 1.5-2months. I was told the deeper acne-induced scars were needled with a 2mm stamp and a 1.0mm for the rest of the surrounding skin. With the gravity of inflammation and bleeding post-roll, I would say my dermatologist made sure she needled the skin to a point where a beet and my face will be indistinguishable for 3 days.

Its been past 6 or 7 months and I have only resorted to cosmetic rolling (0.5mm) thrice and performed it on a bi-weekly basis. Noteworthy improvement has been observed on the ice pick scars at the temple region where I used to get cystic zits. At first, I thought it was just the inflammatory response giving the illusion of a more leveled skin but as months flew by, and to my surprise, it takes less effort now to conceal the pits with make-up.

Skin was infused with a collagen serum post-medical roll and a soothing mask afterwards to tame down the redness. As for my DIY cosmetic roll, I have only tried a tranxenamic acid serum once and the tretinoin (0.1%) mixed with rose hip-Vit.E oil combo twice.

I wish to continue doing the cosmetic rolling and probably dabble into clinical rolling by my own if work schedule permits as it has truly yielded improvements on my skin with respect to scarring problem. The visible pores and hyperpigmented spots were left to their own devices though to continue breaking my day. But that has been fairly managed with the use of low-grade hydroquinone cream (0.3%). To sum it up, I'm quite satisfied with this resurfacing technique as I nary have anything commendable to say about laser-assisted resurfacing like Pixel since after 2 sessions, I only ended up a few grand poorer and sadder bec of the post-treatment flare-ups the procedure brought.

I am now contemplating on embarking in the Obagi system and wonder if anyone had had any success with combining the regimen with dermarolling. I understand the Obagi products have the tendency to thin the skin bec of constant exfoliation but Im sure the regimen can be tailored in such a manner where exfoliation won't be as aggressive to permit integration of mild mechanical surfacing like microdermabrasion, needling, dry brushing and the likes.

Fri Oct 10, 2014 8:32 pm

Hi, everyone. I'm so glad I read up on this. I have been here for a while but this is my first post. This is my second roll w a .5 mm. The next day my skin looked droopy almost from the inflammation but the next day everything looked calm again. I rolled again today. & what I'm noticing is I rolled on a scar that's on my neck. It almost seems like it looks smoother. I'm in my late 30s & after the car wreck where I got the scar from, it's as if it accelerated the aging in ny neck. I have the turkey neck. ��. & has made my neck seem like I have no elasticity. So I'm really hoping that not only this decreases the scar but helps at the tugging of the larger scar that pulls at the rest of the neck. I had to have surgery to remove glass. When I had the surgery to remove the glass, it seemed like my collagen was broken up. But back to the results, I hope it really helps so my neck looks semi decent.

Sat Oct 18, 2014 11:49 am

hi everyone! i've recently found out about dermarolling, & i need to read about it more before i actually begin anything, but i have a question! i'm allergic to nickel, so are there any dermarollers that aren't made with/don't have any nickel in them whatsoever? i just want to be sure, because whenever nickel's exposed to my skin it gives me a rash, so i definitely don't want to be poking holes in my skin with it!

free skin care · Sat Oct 18, 2014 7:32 pm

pumpkinmocha wrote:

hi everyone! i've recently found out about dermarolling, & i need to read about it more before i actually begin anything, but i have a question! i'm allergic to nickel, so are there any dermarollers that aren't made with/don't have any nickel in them whatsoever? i just want to be sure, because whenever nickel's exposed to my skin it gives me a rash, so i definitely don't want to be poking holes in my skin with it!

Rollers are typically made with stainless steel or titanium alloy.

free skin care · Sun Nov 16, 2014 9:22 am

Cosmetic vs Medical Needling

Typically, dermal needling is divided into "Cosmetic" and "Medical" based on the length of needles (Cosmetic: less than 0.5 mm; Medical: 0.5 mm and greater), and the depth reached in the skin (see diagram page 4 Cool

. Cosmetic needling micro-injures the epidermis, and medical needling, the dermis. (Page 48 Concise Guide to Dermal Needling Expanded Medical Edition.)

There are two completely different pathways involved, both of which lead to increased collagen production.

A. The "cosmetic" pathway -- Initially it was believed that cosmetic needling only allowed greater absorption of products. However, keratinocyte injury triggers a cascade of cell-to-cell communication that leads to up-regulation of genes. This results in normal collagen production in the absence of inflammation, and the optimization of cellular function at a number of levels, both of which contribute to the anti-aging effect.

B. The "medical" pathway -- Injury at the dermal level triggers a completely different kind of cascade with platelets playing the predominant role. Platelets are like a first-aid kit containing growth factors and cytokines that are released at time of injury to facilitate repair. It is important to note that inflammation drives this process and when in excess, may lead to scar collagen or fibrosis. Thus, in the context of medical needling, best results are obtained by cancelling this negative effect through use of anti-inflammatory products and treatment modalities, such as LED.
https://www.facebook.com/doc.setterfield

Mon Mar 16, 2015 7:59 pm

I've been derma needling for about two years and I've come to the belief that doing it every other day, even with needles as long as 1.5mm, is the way to get results. I'm not a doctor so don't take my word for it, but my experience is if you needle your face every six weeks you are going to get absolutely nowhere. Needling is not that injurious/impactful to the skin to cause any dramatic changes when done so infrequently. Lastly, I'll just say that Dr. Fernandez himself has admitted he needles his hands every day. So, you know....from a person who has been doing it for so long, he ought to know.

free skin care · Mon Mar 16, 2015 8:29 pm

Lisa, perhaps you are right that rolling often creates more visable results but all the scientific research points to this being counter productive in the long run. The skin need to go through a lengthy healing process involving an inflamatory response, breakdown of old collagen and the laying down of new collagen which takes weeks. Needling deeply every couple of days risks keeping you in the early stages of inflammation and collagen breakdown without letting your body complete the process of laying down a new collagen matrix. I would be worried rolling deeply several times a week that improvements I was seeing were due more to swelling and inflammation than to true remodelling of the underlying structure of my skin.

I believe this is likely to be true of needles of 0.5mm and above. Shorter needles for enhanced uptake of topicals can I believe be used more often.

free skin care · Mon Mar 16, 2015 8:43 pm

+1 what Pandora77 said. Very well said indeed.
Very reckless to recommend rolling with needles that long or even shorter, that often. Inflammation is going to be confused for progress.

Mon Mar 16, 2015 9:52 pm

Pandax and Pandora, thanks for your responses. I'm not recommending every-other-day needling, I'm just sharing with the readers here that I'm doing it. So if it doesn't work out, others can benefit from hearing about my experience. Or vice versa, if it does work out. I've seen no 'serious' science to prove or disprove the theory about collagen being hindered from building if the skin isn't in perfect condition. Early stages of inflammation? I don't get that. Needling doesn't really do much damage, it seems to me, and needling has never caused me any swelling. My skin usually feels totally back to normal from needling in 24 hours. Anyway, I've been needling every other day for the past two weeks and so far my skin looks improved. I'll keep you all posted as to how it goes in the weeks and months to come. If I start looking worse or my face falls off I will definitely be back here to report it.
I should also mention, I use an infrared light on my face five days per week. I look pretty good for 61. Though not as good as Bo Derek. I really would love to know what she does Question

Or maybe I wouldn't.... Question

Mon Mar 16, 2015 10:55 pm

pandora77 wrote:

Needling deeply every couple of days risks keeping you in the early stages of inflammation and collagen breakdown without letting your body complete the process of laying down a new collagen matrix.

So, I'm trying to think this through logically. Why would one needling (presuming one is doing the rolling in the typically recommended manner) cause one to need to regrow a whole new collagen matrix? I'm assuming it doesn't (?) and so, I theorize that one can get away with a few needlings a week. Needles are going to be pricking different spots. If the belief is that a derma rolling does cause a total breakdown and turnover of collagen, I'd question that belief. I think the only thing I can think of that would cause complete collagen breakdown and necessitate the formation of a whole new collagen matrix would be the Phenol peel. Now that is something I would definitely not recommend.

free skin care · Tue Mar 17, 2015 9:39 am

Lisa, everyone is different so of course I can't categorically say how others will react to derma needling all I can go on is the research that is done by medical professionals and by and large such frequent rolling with longer needles is not advised.

It is true that when you perform a single roll you only create the microchannels in a small percentage of the skins total surface. However that small percent of total damage spread somewhat evenly over the surface of the skin triggers a process which is systemic rather than only affecting the small area of damage directly. For example dermal needling increases the production of collagenases which breaks down collagen and is a necessary step in the production of new healthy collagen but if collagenases is elevated consistantly its effect will be destructive rather than playing its important role in skin healing and remodeling. I do agree that an entire new collagen for the whole face will not be made each time you role with a 0.5mm roller or above. Treatments are cumulative over months and years but only if the skin is given time to heal. The key thing is to see the skin as a living breathing organ with its own processes and the best results seem to be in harnessing the skins natural functions rather than trying to beat it into shape like it was an old table top and believe me I have been there!

There is so much that is only just beginning to be understood about skin about how it works and repairs itself. For example the signalling that goes on between the various layers of the skin the keratinocytes in the epidermis and the effect they have on the production of collagen in the deeper dermis this signalling is believed by Dr Setterfield to be key to the success of dermal needling. Also most of us are not medical professionals or even aestheticians so I think it is wise to be prudent when attempting to DIY what is essentially a medical procedure especially anything over 0.5mm.

Just after Christmas when deciding to really seriously study and try dermal needling I rolled with a 1.5mm needle on the back of my left hand which was is a frankly dreadful state as it is the one that always seems to get the most sun / weather damage. In the days immediately following my roll my hand looked great with very plump and juicy skin, this was the inital inflammatory phase. Then it seemed to get worse for several weeks it looked so bad and I was very worried then the skin on my had actually peeled (common wheh rolling your hands at first) and over the next week or so continued to improve and now my bad hand is my good hand! This was my experiment and it has personally convinced me of the time rolling take to produce lasting results and that less is probably more.

However all that being said Lisa, this is only a combination of my online research and experiance and I fully accept that you may feel differently and even with in the reseach / medical community there is some disagreement on treatment protocols but I have to say I have not seen anyone recommend rolling several times a week with 1.5mm needles.

I would really encourage everyone to read as much as they can on dermal needling before they get into it as understanding the research, the skins functions and so on is not optional with this. I have read everything I can find online and their is a whole lot and I eagerly await my copy of Dr Setterfield's book from the US.

Sun Mar 22, 2015 2:56 am

Pandora, thank you for your response. I posted a fairly long answer much earlier this evening but it failed to appear. Anyway, the most important thing I said was that I worked my way up to what I'm now doing over a two year period. That's probably why I can do this with no adverse effects (that I can detect so far) But we'll see how it goes. So far my skin is just a little dry, otherwise fine. I'll post again in a week or so.

Cheers!

Mon Mar 23, 2015 9:18 am

Can anyone please advise whether the saline solution intended for contact lenses (below) is appropriate to use with a derma pen to provide slip?

Sodium chloride 0.75%, EDTA 0.02%, PHMB 0.0002% in a sodium phosphate buffer

free skin care · Mon Mar 23, 2015 10:27 am

Not an expert but that's what I use.

free skin care · Tue Mar 24, 2015 7:40 am

Have read since to use nasal spray...this would be simpler because you wouldn't have to transfer to a spray bottle. HTH

free skin care · Fri Mar 27, 2015 5:10 pm

Hi Ladies

I am hoping for some help in choosing a dermaroller. I am looking for one that does the same as you would get at the docs. I know 1.5mm is what they use, especially for thighs and arms, but is there a needle count and type of metal that needs to be used. What brand do you recommend and is the Derminator the best?

Am ready to buy, but need your help. Will report my results back.

free skin care · Sat Mar 28, 2015 9:41 am

wrinklefreeforever wrote:

Hi Ladies

I am hoping for some help in choosing a dermaroller. I am looking for one that does the same as you would get at the docs. I know 1.5mm is what they use, especially for thighs and arms, but is there a needle count and type of metal that needs to be used. What brand do you recommend and is the Derminator the best?

Am ready to buy, but need your help. Will report my results back.

Seems your knowledge about rolling is rather minimum. I would advise researching rolling before diving in. This thread is great but can be overwhelming of course due to it's length and much of the earlier advice is outdated so to speak. Are you familiar with Dr's Setterfield and Fernandez?

There is no best brand of roller. It's all subjective. My personal opinion is to stick with 192 needle rollers as the 540 ones that are usually purple have blade like needles rather than the straight ones. This slices the skin rather than punctures it. Not a good thing IMO but I have no evidence it is more dangerous. Just made sense after reading about this at owndoc.com

There is no answer to which is better, a Derminator or a regular roller. Both should get the job done equally well. I would at least start out with a regular roller but that's just me.

I've rolled for a few years now and always buy my rollers on ebay. I've had no issues doing this. Seems the ones I have bought in the past are more limited now (the green head and mustard yellow head ones)....the purple (blade like) head ones seems to be taking over :\

free skin care · Sun Mar 29, 2015 6:41 pm

Thanks so much for this info. Yes my knowledge is limited, I am just now getting into it. Trying to learn as much as I can before starting. Since you've been doing it so long, can you tell me what kind of results to expect?

free skin care · Sun Mar 29, 2015 7:10 pm

wrinklefreeforever wrote:

Thanks so much for this info. Yes my knowledge is limited, I am just now getting into it. Trying to learn as much as I can before starting. Since you've been doing it so long, can you tell me what kind of results to expect?

This forum has been closed for some time but still a good source of info.
http://forums.owndoc.com/dermarolling-microneedling/

https://www.facebook.com/doc.setterfield

free skin care · Mon Mar 30, 2015 10:18 am

Thanks I will check it out. So much info!

free skin care · Mon Mar 30, 2015 10:20 am

I've been doing some reading too and I keep coming up with articles saying it's better to get it done by a pro - but on here it seems everyone is getting great results on their own.

free skin care · Sat Apr 18, 2015 11:32 am

Just wanted to give everyone an update. I got my first microneedling done yesterday. They used a Dermapen and it wasn't all that painful. I want to do so many other areas I think I definitely want to purchase the Derminator but the site said it's not available until May 8th, so I may do another area next week at the doc's office. I will post my results in a week. They applied this lotion called nectrifirm and gave me ampules of this stuff from snail slime called biopelle tensage growth factor. I am hoping that the Derminator provides the same type of medical grade needling as the pro did with the Dermapen. We shall see I guess.

Tue Apr 28, 2015 7:40 pm

I just wanted to check in and follow up on my previous postings. I had written about 6 weeks back that I was dermarolling every other day. I did stop that completely because my skin was getting terribly dry. I gave my face a rest for a week, and then did a TCA peel. I have some 30% concentration TCA peel but it's three years old and so it's gotten stronger over the years. I have no idea what the percentage of concentration is exactly but I suspect it's about 50 percent. Anyway, I just used it on small areas, getting to different spots over a period of two weeks, and it took about ten days for each section to heel. I looked horrible for a whole month while the different sections were healing. But it got me some significant results. There is still some redness under my eyes but I have to say that the wrinkles/bags under my eyes improved by about 60 percent. Around my mouth looks better too. Anyway, I'll probably go back to needling again when all the redness is gone, but as to needling, not more than once a week for me ever again. Makes my skin much too dry.

Tue Apr 28, 2015 11:52 pm

I am new to this forum but have done some derma rolling but not faithfully. I have looked at You Tube videos and done other research.

My confusion is needle length, and how many days per week one should use for the face. Taking into account the inflammation factor, the time the skin needs to heal between treatments etc. this appears to be a controversial subject with many opinions by well respected professionals. And then there is the question of should you "treat" the skin with topicals during, or wait til after. If I am asking a redundant question please forgive as this thread is L O N G but I believe derma rolling is a very valuable tool and I would love to benefit from other's experiences!
Thanks!! Laughing

free skin care · Wed Apr 29, 2015 3:50 pm

You should take a look at the owndoc website. There's tons of info there.

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