| Author |
Message |
|
|
|
Thu Mar 26, 2015 9:06 pm  |
| Thanks for the heads up about avoiding using acids for about 2 weeks post deep rolling. |
|
|
|
|
|
Thu Mar 26, 2015 11:29 pm |
| pandora77 wrote: |
| .........Again in the consice guide to dermal needling, Dr Setterfield does suggest to avoid using acids for about 2 weeks post deep roll as the effect of the acids effect the keratinocytes which in turn effects their signalling to the deeper skin layers and the building of collagen......... |
Hi Pandora,
Did Dr. Stetterfield mention what the acids were? I wonder if Vic C serum is included in the list. |
|
|
|
|
|
Fri Mar 27, 2015 3:00 am |
Hi Pandora77
Don’t be fooled into thinking lymphatic massage isn’t less intense – real lymphatic massage can be incredibly painful when carried out by a proper trained person and is actually very intense and probably moreso. I trained in two different forms of it, and whilst I do incorporate lymphatic movements into my own massage I am also very aware its no where near the same quality as going to a professional for that treatment.
| pandora77 wrote: |
| Unfortunately Dr Setterfield's book does not shed a great deal of light on the question of facial exercise, he does recommend lymphatic drainage in the 1st week but I imagine that may be less intense than some forms of massage practiced by members of this forum, myself included. |
I have friends who work at professional clinics and the advice re not using They also state NOT to use any Alpha Hydroxy Acids, Beta Hydroxy Acid, Retinol (Vitamin A), Vitamin C (in a low pH formula) or anything perceived as 'active' skincare actually came from them and their post-care leaflet. Something people jumped on me for sharing and I won’t be doing it again but its good to see that it is a viewpoint shared by other professionals and in print elsewhere
| pandora77 wrote: |
| Again in the consice guide to dermal needling, Dr Setterfield does suggest to avoid using acids for about 2 weeks post deep roll as the effect of the acids effect the keratinocytes which in turn effects their signalling to the deeper skin layers and the building of collagen. He seems to be ok with the use of acid toners past the point and careful use of acids for specific conditions. |
Not all plastic surgeons and derms are against facial exercise, in fact quite a lot are changing their viewpoints about this which is very refreshing in my book. As to there being no proper study – its not for the want of trying. During the past 7 years I have several times volunteered my own time when I was approached by some bodies to doing a proper study. And by proper study they said they were willing to spend a year following people doing them. I also had 40-100 people in different studies which was wonderful. I have spent at least 6-8 months on each study and people were getting amazing results and sharing their results and the university was also impressed only to have their request for fundings withdrawn or their allocations assigned to a more needing department. Now one of them was in relation to a new medicine for cancer treatment which is important and I understand fully why it was felt necessary. Yet for some of the others we are 6 months into it and you can see visible changes and the whole project gets scrapped. One study I had taken part to got cancelled at the 8 month stage and they were doing reviews and tests every 2 months to monitor progress and the results of that showed some really exciting changes. Yet the studies are often the property of the University and so even though data is collected which shows some brilliant changes I am never able to use it. Its one of the reasons that this year I have refused studies because the terms and conditions preventing me from using any data I find to be incredibly limiting.
There is some evidence showing changes are possible from facial exercises but these are few and far between and often times there are quibbles over the studies themselves as not being done scientifically enough etc. Again that was one of the reasons I jumped at the chance previously to take part in the ones I had done. I’m always in hope that studies will come to light, but I also realise that it may take some time before they do and as I personally have seen facial exercise transform many peoples faces I’m not willing to wait till they do show up.
| pandora77 wrote: |
| There seems to be no real evidence either way regarding the combination of facial exercise and dermarolling so I find both view points useful and I suppose it is up to each of use to decide. Have their even been any proper studies on facial exercise, most plastic surgeons and dermatologists I have see asked about them are skeptical but the point could be made that they would say that. |
|
_________________
FlexEffect Trainer |
|
|
|
|
Fri Mar 27, 2015 3:03 am |
Hi Pandora77
Don’t be fooled into thinking lymphatic massage isn’t less intense – real lymphatic massage can be incredibly painful when carried out by a proper trained person and is actually very intense and probably moreso. I trained in two different forms of it, and whilst I do incorporate lymphatic movements into my own massage I am also very aware its no where near the same quality as going to a professional for that treatment.
| pandora77 wrote: |
| Unfortunately Dr Setterfield's book does not shed a great deal of light on the question of facial exercise, he does recommend lymphatic drainage in the 1st week but I imagine that may be less intense than some forms of massage practiced by members of this forum, myself included. |
I have friends who work at professional clinics and the advice re not using They also state NOT to use any Alpha Hydroxy Acids, Beta Hydroxy Acid, Retinol (Vitamin A), Vitamin C (in a low pH formula) or anything perceived as 'active' skincare actually came from them and their post-care leaflet. Something people jumped on me for sharing and I won’t be doing it again but its good to see that it is a viewpoint shared by other professionals and in print elsewhere
| pandora77 wrote: |
| Again in the consice guide to dermal needling, Dr Setterfield does suggest to avoid using acids for about 2 weeks post deep roll as the effect of the acids effect the keratinocytes which in turn effects their signalling to the deeper skin layers and the building of collagen. He seems to be ok with the use of acid toners past the point and careful use of acids for specific conditions. |
Not all plastic surgeons and derms are against facial exercise, in fact quite a lot are changing their viewpoints about this which is very refreshing in my book. As to there being no proper study – its not for the want of trying. During the past 7 years I have several times volunteered my own time when I was approached by some bodies to doing a proper study. And by proper study they said they were willing to spend a year following people doing them. I also had 40-100 people in different studies which was wonderful. I have spent at least 6-8 months on each study and people were getting amazing results and sharing their results and the university was also impressed only to have their request for fundings withdrawn or their allocations assigned to a more needing department. Now one of them was in relation to a new medicine for cancer treatment which is important and I understand fully why it was felt necessary. Yet for some of the others we are 6 months into it and you can see visible changes and the whole project gets scrapped. One study I had taken part to got cancelled at the 8 month stage and they were doing reviews and tests every 2 months to monitor progress and the results of that showed some really exciting changes. Yet the studies are often the property of the University and so even though data is collected which shows some brilliant changes I am never able to use it. Its one of the reasons that this year I have refused studies because the terms and conditions preventing me from using any data I find to be incredibly limiting.
There is some evidence showing changes are possible from facial exercises but these are few and far between and often times there are quibbles over the studies themselves as not being done scientifically enough etc. Again that was one of the reasons I jumped at the chance previously to take part in the ones I had done. I’m always in hope that studies will come to light, but I also realise that it may take some time before they do and as I personally have seen facial exercise transform many peoples faces I’m not willing to wait till they do show up.
| pandora77 wrote: |
| There seems to be no real evidence either way regarding the combination of facial exercise and dermarolling so I find both view points useful and I suppose it is up to each of use to decide. Have their even been any proper studies on facial exercise, most plastic surgeons and dermatologists I have see asked about them are skeptical but the point could be made that they would say that. |
Questioning things is healthy and always a good thing to do and I am in complete favour of it and encourage it. How many of the so called aging symptons we just buy into and create without realising is probably a lot higher than we realise, but they are substantially different from personal attacks. |
_________________
FlexEffect Trainer |
|
|
|
|
Fri Mar 27, 2015 7:55 am |
Summer, Vitamin C as well as Retinoid (both acids) are recommended after rolling but Dr Setterfield does have a long chapter on various ingredients that should be avoided post roll which is too long and detailed to go into here but I think would probably be found in many vitamin c preperations both DIY and commercial. I haven't quite got my head round it yet myself but I would really recommend his book as it has made me aware of a lot of things I was as yet unaware of that might have affected my results if I was unaware of them.
Sean, of course professional lymph massage for the body and face is intense but I think that in the book, Dr Setterfield is encouraging gentle lymphatic drainage massage from quite early on afer rolling to remove waste products away from the site of injury.
Sean, I totally agree with you that facial exercise is effective, this is totally subjective but most people I know do no facial exercise and they mostly age in a similar facial as they lose muscle tone, facial fat and bone desnity the only thing that seems to really address all these issues in a non-invasive way is facial exercise combined with a health diet and good skincare which is why for me it is a must in my own personal programme. For me the real question is how to structure that programme to get the benefits of a range of modalities with out setting myself back through over work.
It is such a pity the studies you were involved with did not go though to the end. Was anything in relation to these published?
I did read about a study done at McMaster University in Ontario last year which found regular physical exercise appeared to reverse skin aging so I do not see why this would not also apply to the addition of facial exercise especially as this in particular works on improving the face as a who, muscle and bone rather then just the skin.
Also another study linked facial aging and wrinkling to bone density and I believe that at least a couple of the well know facial exercise programs address facial bone loss and include work to help slow and prevent this. |
|
|
|
|
|
Fri Mar 27, 2015 8:30 am |
| Just remembered regarding Lymph drainage in another book on dermal needling I read by Anthony Kingston he recommends using a Jade roller for post needling facial massage. Another interesting book which combines dermarolling with TCM. |
|
|
|
|
|
Fri Mar 27, 2015 10:07 am |
| pandora77 wrote: |
| Sean, of course professional lymph massage for the body and face is intense but I think that in the book, Dr Setterfield is encouraging gentle lymphatic drainage massage from quite early on afer rolling to remove waste products away from the site of injury. |
Okay cool. I mistakeningly stated one time about noticing lymphatic movements in a particular massage style that was in vogue and all of a sudden people started labelling it as a “lymphatic massage” which I know was attributed to me. Whilst it did include lymphatic movements it was far from a lymphatic massage and so I’m always cautious when I use that wording.
| pandora77 wrote: |
| It is such a pity the studies you were involved with did not go though to the end. Was anything in relation to these published? |
Nothing was published, because the studies were all a year plus length, and I know when I was looking at the data the staff were collecting and tests they were doing I wanted to shout from the roof tops. Even 6 month into the first two showed dramatic evidence in my mind that skin, bone and muscles had all improved drastically and there were amazing visible changes, but also the testing that was being done was also monitoring things happening underneath the skin and that was getting a lot of praise from the testers. Sadly one of the things is when I entered the study I was asked to sign a contract (not so untoward) but basically the study and the results/findings etc were the property of the University. I didn’t mind that so much because I figured if anything it would be used to promote facial exercises across the board, but having done so many that are always pulled before they complete I’m not so weary of doing that. Not to mention the many hours I spent (for which I wasn’t paid) so I’m very apprehensive about volunteering to do any more now. Initially I thought it would be a credit to all programs out there showing just what can be done with them, but now I’m starting to realise even with studies there will be many negative nay sayers anyhow.
Deb of FlexEffect has an amazing page on her website and took part in a study herself which you can view here: http://www.flexeffect.com/research and her stuff on bone was really the first time I heard about someone coming up with physical techniques to just go after bone. Interestingly enough its not that resistance exercises don’t stimulate bone, because they do, but there are other techniques out there
| pandora77 wrote: |
I did read about a study done at McMaster University in Ontario last year which found regular physical exercise appeared to reverse skin aging so I do not see why this would not also apply to the addition of facial exercise especially as this in particular works on improving the face as a who, muscle and bone rather then just the skin.
Also another study linked facial aging and wrinkling to bone density and I believe that at least a couple of the well know facial exercise programs address facial bone loss and include work to help slow and prevent this. |
|
_________________
FlexEffect Trainer |
|
|
|
|
Tue Mar 31, 2015 2:15 pm |
Thanks sean, the link to the research on the Flex effect site looks great, very inspiring. Deb easily looks 20 years younger than her age which is quite a feat! Its definetely a system I need to consider more fully.
It is a pity about the studies, I am sure things like this will always get less money for studies because there isn't the money in it for those who can afford to fund such things. |
|
|
|
|
|
Wed Apr 01, 2015 6:44 pm |
pandora77, how are you using the Tria ADL while needling? I use the Tria and am considering rolling with .5 needles to help product absorption only (I am currently wading through this thread for info http://www.essentialdayspa.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=36278) My gut is telling me to patch test different routines on my arm to see if it is overkill (it is not the same but if my arm doesn't respond well-my face won't either).
I recently purchased the Red MD LED lamp and am trying to pull a routine together with everything (rolling, Tria, LED and my C serums).
I also use NuFace on my cheeks and jaw and occasionally the Labelle skin spatula with a sheet mask, but I don't feel that these gadgets interfere with allowing the skin to heal (I am on the break period with the Tria). |
|
|
|
|
|
Wed Apr 01, 2015 8:05 pm |
Nikossmile, I'm not using the Tria ADL while needling, I think that would be too much. I have read that needling can be used post laser to get a better result but only with much stronger treatments than what you get with the Tria. Needling and the Tria do pretty much the same thing so I think it would be wise to use them both seperately months apart but someone else may suggest other wise, this is only my feeling.
I think that the Red Led you have and your serums are fine to use along with needling and I think microcurrent could be used fairly soon like a week or so after a deep roll.
I think the only issue is using needling and the tria to close together because you need to be careful of chronic inflammation and collagenese production. |
|
|
|
|
|
Thu Apr 02, 2015 6:18 pm |
thanks for the advice  I think that using the Tria and needling even with something small like a .2 or .5 would be too much. I think that if I order one, I'm just going to use it on my drivers arm. |
|
|
|
|
| Tue Apr 16, 2024 3:18 pm |
If this is your first visit to the EDS Forums please take the time to register. Registration is required for you to post on the forums. Registration will also give you the ability to track messages of interest, send private messages to other users, participate in Gift Certificates draws and enjoy automatic discounts for shopping at our online store. Registration is free and takes just a few seconds to complete.
Click Here to join our community.
If you are already a registered member on the forums, please login to gain full access to the site. |
|
 |
|
