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cinncinn
New Member
 
Joined: 12 Jul 2015
Posts: 8
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Wed Sep 23, 2015 12:32 pm  |
I came across this article on futurederm website where the lady talks about how over-the-counter retinols are more effective than prescription tretinoin.
As a new member I can't post the link to that, but here is what she says:
"When retinol or retinyl palmitate are applied to skin samples, retinoids were uncovered in all five skin layers, including the deepest layer (the dermis) (Toxicology and Skin Health, 2006). This is not a bad thing at all –some of the retinol in the uppermost layers have enzymes that can convert retinol to its active form, tretinoin. But some of the unconverted retinol traverses your skin and gets into the deepest layers, where collagen is formed. On the other hand, when you apply tretinoin directly to the skin, it has been shown to work mainly on the uppermost layers of the skin.
Why? It all has to do with the chemical structure of the molecules — smaller, nonpolar molecules tend to traverse the skin better. And over-the-counter retinol and retinyl palmitate do just that."
Has anyone heard about it? Any links to further investigate it?
I have been under the assumption that prescription tretinoin is the best form available, but now looks that I might be wrong. Given the choice I would rather go for a product that penetrates deep enough to stimulate collagen production rather than just works on the surface.
Having said that, can anyone please recommend a good retinol product that is microencapsulated?
Thank you |
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Wed Sep 23, 2015 3:07 pm |
| *Listens* I was going to start using renova instead of Avene so I'm interested in this topic. |
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Curent Regime: Cosmetic Skin Solutions CE Ferulic and Phloretin/ Revale Intensive Serum / NIA 24 Intensive Recovery Complex cream / Jojoba and Squalane oils / Avene Emulsion SPF 50 & Prevage City Smart SPF 50 / Skinceuticals Retinol 1.0/ Dermaroller / Facial exercises |
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Wed Sep 23, 2015 8:18 pm |
| I don't have a source, but I recall reading 8-10 months ago that encapsulated retinol works as well or better than retin A and causes less irritation. Perhaps this article was referring to the encapsulated version? When I looked at that point, it was difficult to find products made with it. Might be more available now. This is an interesting topic. |
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Wed Sep 23, 2015 8:23 pm |
| cinncinn wrote: |
I came across this article on futurederm website where the lady talks about how over-the-counter retinols are more effective than prescription tretinoin.
As a new member I can't post the link to that, but here is what she says:
"When retinol or retinyl palmitate are applied to skin samples, retinoids were uncovered in all five skin layers, including the deepest layer (the dermis) (Toxicology and Skin Health, 2006). This is not a bad thing at all –some of the retinol in the uppermost layers have enzymes that can convert retinol to its active form, tretinoin. But some of the unconverted retinol traverses your skin and gets into the deepest layers, where collagen is formed. On the other hand, when you apply tretinoin directly to the skin, it has been shown to work mainly on the uppermost layers of the skin.
Why? It all has to do with the chemical structure of the molecules — smaller, nonpolar molecules tend to traverse the skin better. And over-the-counter retinol and retinyl palmitate do just that."
Has anyone heard about it? Any links to further investigate it?
I have been under the assumption that prescription tretinoin is the best form available, but now looks that I might be wrong. Given the choice I would rather go for a product that penetrates deep enough to stimulate collagen production rather than just works on the surface.
Having said that, can anyone please recommend a good retinol product that is microencapsulated?
Thank you |
Here's the link to the futurederm article for those interested.
https://www.futurederm.com/11-things-you-never-knew-about-retinol-and-retinoids-until-now/
Also, here's a link to the study it references:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16786840
It doesn't say whether it's encapsulated. Given the study was done in 2006, I'd guess it's not. I think the encapsulated version is newer than that. |
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Thu Sep 24, 2015 1:44 am |
| cinncinn wrote: |
| I came across this article on futurederm website where the lady talks about how over-the-counter retinols are more effective than prescription tretinoin. |
Not all tretinoins are the same. Different mediums and strengths, gels for example are supposed to be more suited to oily skinned folks, whereas the creams are supposed to be more suited to dry skinned folk. I have yet to find someone oily skin or otherwise who is able to tolerate the gel without any side reactions. Likewise that’s before we even discuss microgel which is like a sprinkler system. The microgel is actually a medium that tends to suit most folk and delivers a high strength of tertinoin without the unusual side effects and its higher than retinoids.
I think I’d take it all with a pinch of salt – unless there is some serious scientific backing behind it. |
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cinncinn
New Member
Joined: 12 Jul 2015
Posts: 8
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Thu Sep 24, 2015 7:01 am |
ShastaGirl,
what I am trying to understand is whether retinol is more effective than tretinoin. As she says that tretinoin only works on the surface not reaching as deep as retinol. And yes, the study she refers to is from 2006 therefore I am wondering if there are any new findings or any other information to support that.
For the microencapsulation, yes I understand it's just a form of delivering ingredients to skin layers. On this I am settled as I am using Retin-A micro gel now and it is indeed way milder than the regular prescription variety I was using before. Therefore if retinol is a more desirable form of vitamin A then I rather switch to a product that contains it in microspheres (because this way it's milder) |
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Fri Sep 25, 2015 4:09 am |
More effective is a difficult question to answer, because each person you speak with will have different results with both retinoids and retin.
The microgel is one of the best in my opinion, and I’ve used different forms of retin A for over 30 years. I think the microgel retin a is actually far superior to retinoids. My derm put me on it years ago, and I have gone through stages of thinking it may be the best thing I’ve ever done!
| cinncinn wrote: |
what I am trying to understand is whether retinol is more effective than tretinoin. As she says that tretinoin only works on the surface not reaching as deep as retinol. And yes, the study she refers to is from 2006 therefore I am wondering if there are any new findings or any other information to support that.
For the microencapsulation, yes I understand it's just a form of delivering ingredients to skin layers. On this I am settled as I am using Retin-A micro gel now and it is indeed way milder than the regular prescription variety I was using before. Therefore if retinol is a more desirable form of vitamin A then I rather switch to a product that contains it in microspheres (because this way it's milder) |
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Mon Sep 28, 2015 7:03 am |
| From my own experience retinol is totally useless. I cant imagine it being more effective than Retin A. |
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Tue Sep 29, 2015 2:07 am |
I wouldn't call retinol useless..I remember using Green Cream some years ago and was delighted by its performance. The reason I switched from Green Cream to Retin-a had much to do with my budget sense of consciousness; Why spend $45 dollars for little over a months use when I could spend less for something that would last 6 months + and was scientifically proven to be superior?
I do think high level retinols perform (especially if someone is too sensitive to tretinoin) but I've yet to see any studies that convince me retinols could actually be better. |
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Tue Sep 29, 2015 5:02 am |
| I wouldn't label retinol as useless. For one, it can be a godsend to people who can't tolerate Retin A. It can produce the same sort of results but needs longer to deliver them. I think its pointless to get into the xyz is better than abc, because in essence they are just different. Some people love Retinoids, others love Retin A. At the end of the day, its about finding what works for you. |
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Tue Sep 29, 2015 1:15 pm |
I think the name Future Derm is misleading. Nicki dropped out of medical school years ago. She continues to blog and her has own line of products.
She is going to write articles that support her line of products. |
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Canadian with fair skin. 50+ years old sensitive and reactive. |
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Fri Oct 02, 2015 8:20 pm |
| Autumn1995 wrote: |
I think the name Future Derm is misleading. Nicki dropped out of medical school years ago. She continues to blog and her has own line of products.
She is going to write articles that support her line of products. |
Got this from real self it helped me get a better understanding. But I have a friend who is so sensitive she can only use Retinol, even tazoret and micro gels are too much. So their is a place for both. Actually I use both since Retinol is in so many of my products, and I'll never give up my retinA.
" from real self ; Looks pretty simple. One is a studied, tried and true medical (prescription) product = RetinA and one is a cosmeseutical (encapsulated Retinol).
The other (encapsulated Retinol) is likely a hyped, marketing driven product that is not a prescription product and will likely not have the same results as the (stronger) prescription product.
Retinols, in general, are "watered down" products that allow companies to market them (sell on internet or spas) without a prescription. They are not (generally) as regulated (don't really have to prove they do what they claim since they are probably cosmetic grade) as FDA regulated, prescription products.
That's sort of the consumer explanation vs the chemistry explanation. Different molecules and such... I did not do so well in chemistry, so I'm probably not the one to explain the true science of it all, but my explanation is also a "watered down" version of the differences in the two products. " |
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Too numerous to mention! |
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Sat Oct 03, 2015 1:15 pm |
| Guys, I said Retinol was useless for my own skin. It has been my own experience that retinol did not do anything for my skin, others may like it. |
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Tue Oct 27, 2015 2:51 pm |
Encapsulated retinol and other new synthetic retinoids like retinyl retinoate can be used at higher % and work over the course of the day/night instead of getting the Full Hit of tretinoin (which some simply cannot tolerate).
Tretinoin dried my skin up and dehydrated it like the Sahara Desert - no matter how I used it or in what form. My skin is normal and acne prone.
Retinyl retinoate is great for acne too. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20536650
http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs13770-012-1088-z#/page-1
My feeling is that we each may have different variations of retinoid receptors in our skin and so we react differently to different ones. The trick is finding what works for you! Vive le difference. |
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✪ My go-to products: MyFawnie.BigCartel.com ✪ |
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Tue Oct 27, 2015 3:14 pm |
Fawnie,
Which of your products would you recommend that contains this synthetic retinoid? I've used plain ol' retinol in a product from a derm associated with Dr. Setterfield and it made my skin like the Sahara within 3 days although I could see it was also smoothing my skin! If I could find a retinol product that wasn't so drying I would be thrilled. Please PM me if this question is not appropriate to answer on the forum. |
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71 years, primarily raw living food 35 years(vegan 45 years) herbal tea decoctions, homeopathy, TCM, facial massage, facial exercises, vacu-lifting, gua aha, shiatsu/acupressure, intention, home microcurrrent |
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havana8
Moderator
Joined: 09 Sep 2005
Posts: 3449
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Wed Oct 28, 2015 3:56 pm |
| Havana, thanks for the suggestion. Have you used this product? |
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71 years, primarily raw living food 35 years(vegan 45 years) herbal tea decoctions, homeopathy, TCM, facial massage, facial exercises, vacu-lifting, gua aha, shiatsu/acupressure, intention, home microcurrrent |
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Mon Nov 02, 2015 6:48 pm |
| jasminerosey wrote: |
Fawnie,
Which of your products would you recommend that contains this synthetic retinoid? I've used plain ol' retinol in a product from a derm associated with Dr. Setterfield and it made my skin like the Sahara within 3 days although I could see it was also smoothing my skin! If I could find a retinol product that wasn't so drying I would be thrilled. Please PM me if this question is not appropriate to answer on the forum. |
Its a matter of trial and error to find what works, I've found. Dr Des Fernandes has this to say about vitamin A:
http://apaa.com.au/ask-the-experts-at-apaa/5-the-role-of-vitamin-a-in-prevention-and-corrective-treatments |
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✪ My go-to products: MyFawnie.BigCartel.com ✪ |
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Mon Nov 02, 2015 6:50 pm |
Unfortunately they use coconut oil which is an acne trigger for myself and others. But if it works for you, all is well! |
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✪ My go-to products: MyFawnie.BigCartel.com ✪ |
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Tue Nov 03, 2015 12:41 pm |
I found this article about cosmeceutical ingredients: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2921764/
It discusses several usual ingredients, but retinol is discussed first, and retinaldehyde is shown as more successful than retinol.
Retinyl retinoate was not discussed, it is only studied by one group of Korean researches, still now widely studied so not enough data I guess. |
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Tue Nov 10, 2015 8:15 am |
My medical aesthetician claims that Retinol THICKENS skin while Retin A makes it THIN.
Has anyone heard of any research confirming this claim? |
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Wed Nov 11, 2015 3:21 am |
| I know with Retin A it thins the outer derma but in so doing it increases cellular turnover and production deeper in the derma, so its not much to worry about (other than having to wear sun screen). I’m not aware of any research that claims Retinol thickens skin. I have heard it compared to Retin A, but simply that its an over the counter purchase compared to prescription that is capable of delivering similar results but just requiring longer usage. |
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Fri Mar 17, 2017 10:17 am |
| LondonJamie wrote: |
| *Listens* I was going to start using renova instead of Avene so I'm interested in this topic. |
Talking about retinol penetrating deep enough into the skin to make changes in the collagen.https://www.platinumskincare.com/retinol-molecular-serums-10-20-30/ is a retinol in a microfluid delivery system that can get the retinol down to the prickle layer. This may be what you are referring to. I do not believe that just a plain retinol molecule will travel that deep into the skin on its own. To my knowledge it is too large. A higher percentage may help, but that will just cause irritation and not penetration like a transdermal solution. *I have also used RetinA Micro and regular RetinA in the past. Both caused me extreme irritation. I started alternating prescription with the Molecular Retinol and then transitioned into just the retinol. My acne is still clear and I don't ever get irritation. I use the .20% and sometimes the .30% if I am mixing a few things to apply. |
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Jennifer www.platinumskincare.com |
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Fri Mar 17, 2017 12:56 pm |
| I will stick with my Retinol products, I have used Retin A in the past when I had acne, since I don't anymore, Retinol suits me fine. |
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47, former sunworshipper, skincare addict, oily T-zone, fair skinned, love Vita A, some hyperpigmentation, microneedler. |
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