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Sun Apr 22, 2012 7:29 pm  |
| Keliu wrote: |
As I see it, the only viable solution is to judge something on measurable biological results. Isn't this the yardstick by which all pharmaceuticals are judged? For example, what would be the point in me taking my blood pressure medication every day if it wasn't going to lower my blood pressure? And I have never thought it necessary for me to read a degree level book on blood pressure meds.
All I'm saying is, as a consumer, I want to see factual results and not subjective opinions. |
Measurable biological results are exactly what are found in a published study or dermatology textbook. They are also on manufacturer's websites but I think we all agree those are far from unbiased sources. How else do you want this information presented to you and by whom? As soon as the textbook or study information is regurgitated by any scientist or skincare professional there will be subjective opinion involved.
As I said, I have not suggested you research anything, my post was directed at Tiny. If you have a better answer for him/ her please respond to their post rather than responding to my posts negatively.  I'm sick of being attacked, accused and expected to defend a position I don't hold. |
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Sensitivity, forehead pigmentation & elevens, nose & chin clogged pores. Topicals: Aloe vera, squalane, lactic acid, Myfawnie KinNiaNag HG: Weleda calendula, Lanolips, Guinot masque essentiel, Flexitol Naturals, Careprost. Gadgets: Vaughter dermarollers, Lightstim. |
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Sun Apr 22, 2012 7:30 pm |
| DragoN wrote: |
| All I'm saying is, as a consumer, I want to see factual results and not subjective opinions. |
| Quote: |
| That is fair. And that costs $$ in testing. |
But does it? What are all those computerised measuring devices in skin clinics which measure sun damage, collagen and elastin and general skin health compared to age? Are they just worthless? |
_________________
Born 1950. There's a new cream on the market that gets rid of wrinkles - you smear it on the mirror!! |
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Sun Apr 22, 2012 7:46 pm |
| Keliu wrote: |
| Firefox7275 wrote: |
| What other solution is there if people don't trust Barefacedtruth, DragoN or NCN? |
As I see it, the only viable solution is to judge something on measurable biological results. Isn't this the yardstick by which all pharmaceuticals are judged? For example, what would be the point in me taking my blood pressure medication every day if it wasn't going to lower my blood pressure? And I have never thought it necessary for me to read a degree level book on blood pressure meds.
All I'm saying is, as a consumer, I want to see factual results and not subjective opinions. |
It costs a LOT of money to get the factual results for pharamceuticals. I was talking to a doctor/researcher I know a little while ago and he said it costs a billion dollars to develop a drug. Lots of pharmaceutical firms are not doing anything to develop new antidepressants because it costs too much for them to do so. Never mind that advances in antidepressant research could help lots of people, it's all about the money.
Dr. J's company is a start up. He used his own money. There has to be a cost benefit analysis done of how much money can be spent on testing before releasing the product. I'm sure lots of money went into the development of the products but how cost effective is it to engage in elaborate testing of it? Apparently there is some research that they have done and they will be sharing and I look forward to reading it. |
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Sun Apr 22, 2012 7:46 pm |
| Quote: |
| But does it? What are all those computerised measuring devices in skin clinics which measure sun damage, collagen and elastin and general skin health compared to age? Are they just worthless? |
For the most part, probably useless to you. To run a trial is a tad more complex. Some have been done. Finding participants willing to stick to protocol is one parameter. You also need approval. Money,machinery, data collection,analysis, time to publish etc,etc,etc. It's not the simple thing one might assume.
Pre-post intervention and collection of histological data. Many variables. Machines can be chosen and Are chosen based on their flaws for cosmeceutical aggrandizement. Well moisturized skin will read as wrinkle reduction. You get the idea.
PAL KTTKS vs. Retinol.
That is the worst joke. Matrixyl out performs Retinol. Malarkey...they jerked the data and highlighted the insignificance and made a grand claim. Compared apples and oranges. They are both nice. But in different ways. |
_________________
If you make, first do no harm, your Law, you will never strike the first blow and will be known as a man of peace who can fight like ten tigers, a Human in the act of Being. There is no greater rank than this. Ashida Kim on War.~Cellese~AnteAge Serum and Accelerator, DermaRoller ,MyFawnie AA2G serum, KNN G ForceUltrasound., SEA, ChrySun 25% ZnO |
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Sun Apr 22, 2012 8:38 pm |
| Tiny wrote: |
Dr. J
You are twisting my statement, I did not impose any "rule", I said "a simple rule of thumb". I have no bias that concerns these ingredients, or you for that matter. |
Then you are a unique individual indeed.
| Tiny wrote: |
| My point was/is simple, if anyone has a monetary gain on the outcome, then their opinions are not un-biased. To say I have a "hidden agenda" to state this is absurd. |
I didn't say you had a hidden agenda.I said you have biases, as all sentient beings do. That's before you informed us have no biases. At least as regards me or ingredients. Hmm.
| Tiny wrote: |
| I find you telling me to go elsewhere for my trusted sources, uncalled for. I find EDS a very trusted source and normally a very friendly environment. For the record, my comment was simple, not rude, and not intended to "tweak your scientific nose". |
Glad to know that.
I didn't say you shouldn't look to EDS. I was just curious why this debate, this forum, at this time? I implied there might be some bias in your choosing to do so, here, now. You deny it, fine. Either you really don't have any like you say, or you don't understand what bias is, or just don't see it in yourself. Welcome to the debate.
You didn't respond to my (friendly) invitation to tell us about yourself. so we have no way of knowing where you come from. So we really have no basis to judge whether you have biases or not. You don't disclose. So we are left with your opinion and your rule of thumb.
I stand firmly by my argument that everyone has biases. Opinions are formed by entrenched worldviews more than facts. There is abundant scientific literature on the subject. That's my rule of thumb. |
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Mon Apr 23, 2012 7:32 am |
again I ment, I have no bias on the ingredients or you. I am just here to see what works and what doesn't. The only way I have found that out is to use products and hear others opinions of their use. The mud slinging of product claims turn out wrong alot of time. This is a BILLION dollar industry, companies have alot to gain, in making their claims.
An example just mentioned was matrixyl being touted as stronger than A. Until recently, I did buy into that, that was very wrong information (science, or at least it was presented as such). Both are actually better together (in my opinion or at least my skins opinion).
I get very leery when the "maker" of a product is telling me, other's products are junk (or worse will hurt me) and only theirs work (guess that's a bias). One does not have to slam anyone elses to sell theirs. If theirs is fantastic enough, it will sell itself, by others results.
I am 49, don't work, active life, normal skin, with normal 49 yr old skin issues (aging). I do not DIY, nor buy from Nanci, I guess I do buy from Sederma (since I use Matrixyl), nor do I use EGF, that debate/information is not new and has been around for years. I am looking for whats new, seems everyday something is coming out, hince my interest here. Not sure how that information helps you, but there you go. |
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Mon Apr 23, 2012 7:52 am |
| loopylori wrote: |
| All I got from this thread was wrinkles, from frowning whilst trying to make sense of the information that may or may not have been here somewhere. Sighs. |
LOL. I vote this the best post on the thread!  |
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Mon Apr 23, 2012 8:01 am |
| Tiny wrote: |
again I ment, I have no bias on the ingredients or you. I am just here to see what works and what doesn't. The only way I have found that out is to use products and hear others opinions of their use. The mud slinging of product claims turn out wrong alot of time. This is a BILLION dollar industry, companies have alot to gain, in making their claims.
An example just mentioned was matrixyl being touted as stronger than A. Until recently, I did buy into that, that was very wrong information (science, or at least it was presented as such). Both are actually better together (in my opinion or at least my skins opinion).
I get very leery when the "maker" of a product is telling me, other's products are junk (or worse will hurt me) and only theirs work (guess that's a bias). One does not have to slam anyone elses to sell theirs. If theirs is fantastic enough, it will sell itself, by others results.
I am 49, don't work, active life, normal skin, with normal 49 yr old skin issues (aging). I do not DIY, nor buy from Nanci, I guess I do buy from Sederma (since I use Matrixyl), nor do I use EGF, that debate/information is not new and has been around for years. I am looking for whats new, seems everyday something is coming out, hince my interest here. Not sure how that information helps you, but there you go. |
There are plenty of others products out there that I rate positively. But I talk not about products,but rather about ingredients - the science of actives. There are obviously many actives that I like (I started a thread here about that)based on good evidence.
I agree about matrixyl and VitA being additive, not one better than the other. That derives from their separate mechanisms of action that complement one another.
I buy from Sederma too. They have some good actives. And then there is Teprenone. |
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Mon Apr 23, 2012 8:03 am |
| loopylori wrote: |
| All I got from this thread was wrinkles, from frowning whilst trying to make sense of the information that may or may not have been here somewhere. Sighs. |
We were just trying to help you by preventing you from getting smile and laugh lines.  |
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Mon Apr 23, 2012 12:46 pm |
| LOL. Now i am laughing so I am completely blaming you DrJ for my increased frown and laughter lines. |
_________________
50, happy reluma user started 16.6.12 original formula. PMD user. started LouLou's ageless regime. |
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Tue Apr 24, 2012 12:24 pm |
| loopylori wrote: |
| LOL. Now i am laughing so I am completely blaming you DrJ for my increased frown and laughter lines. |
Welcome back Loops! I've missed you |
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Tue Apr 24, 2012 2:53 pm |
| marina wrote: |
| loopylori wrote: |
| LOL. Now i am laughing so I am completely blaming you DrJ for my increased frown and laughter lines. |
Welcome back Loops! I've missed you |
Me, too.  |
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Tue Apr 24, 2012 8:01 pm |
| Whoa! Look at the dates you three joined!! Nice to see some 'old timers' around |
_________________
early 60's, fair skin, combo skin, very few fine lines, vertical lip lines, crows feet & 11's, fighting aging! Using Palancia HF, dermarollers, CPs, Retin A Micro, Safetox, AALS, Clairsonic |
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Wed Apr 25, 2012 3:48 am |
I agree it is nice to see members back, I love reading the posts from you trailblazers on the forum!
You remind me what a relative newbie I still am! |
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I'LL SEE YOU ON THE DARKSIDE OF THE MOON.... |
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Wed Apr 25, 2012 9:10 am |
Awww, Marina and MajorB its nice to be back. Have missed you guys so glad you are still here.
Although reading some of the threads reminds me of why I took a long break. There is a war in progress at the moment.I might start a thread in lounge so we can chat. |
_________________
50, happy reluma user started 16.6.12 original formula. PMD user. started LouLou's ageless regime. |
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Thu Apr 26, 2012 2:44 am |
| loopylori wrote: |
Awww, Marina and MajorB its nice to be back. Have missed you guys so glad you are still here.
Although reading some of the threads reminds me of why I took a long break. There is a war in progress at the moment.I might start a thread in lounge so we can chat. |
Now we just need guapagirl to return - it would be fab to have the Dynamic Duo back with us!
And yes, still some spectacular bunfights every now and again, alas. |
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Sat Apr 28, 2012 5:48 am |
It seems to me that it takes *years* for products to be widely accepted in the mainstream as being effective.
Up to that point, there is endless debate, so I read the studies as the river continues to run past me. At some point, I may jump in the river and join the earlier adopters.
For skeptics,www.lotioncrafter.com usually sells these emerging ingredients in their "raw" form for a few dollars per 5 or 10 grams.
You can always try mixing them in a plain gel base and trying them that way on the cheap.
By the time they are marketed in a solution chocked full of amazing, miraculous botanicals and other emollients, they are often over $100/small container.
BFG |
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Fri May 04, 2012 2:46 pm |
Latest news on Teprenone/Renovage. Turns out it is not all that great as an anti-ulcer drug. tested against omeprazole (which is OTC in this country) ... only half as many respond. Japanese are re-evaluating whether to keep using this.
BMC Gastroenterol. 2012 May 1;12(1):42. [Epub ahead of print]
Efficacy of omeprazole, famotidine, mosapride and teprenone in patients with upper gastrointestinal symptoms: an omeprazole-controlled randomized study (J-FOCUS).
Sakurai K, Nagahara A, Inoue K, Akiyama J, Mabe K, Suzuki J, Habu Y, Araki A, Suzuki T, Satoh K, Nagami H, Harada R, Tano N, Kusaka M, Fujioka Y, Fujimura T, Shigeto N, Oumi T, Miwa J, Miwa H, Fujimoto K, Kinoshita Y, Haruma K.
Abstract
ABSTRACT:
BACKGROUND:
In Japan, treatment guidelines are lacking for patients with upper gastrointestinal symptoms. We aimed to compare the efficacy of different drugs for the treatment of uninvestigated upper gastrointestinal symptoms.
METHODS:
This was a randomized, open-label, parallel-group multicenter study. Helicobacter pylorinegative, endoscopically uninvestigated patients [greater than or equal to] 20 years of age with upper gastrointestinal symptoms of at least moderate severity (Global Overall Symptom score [GOS] [greater than or equal to] 4 on a 7- point Likert scale) were randomized to treatment with omeprazole (10 mg once daily), famotidine (10 mg twice daily), mosapride (5 mg three times daily) or teprenone (50 mg three times daily). The primary endpoint was sufficient relief of upper gastrointestinal symptoms after 4 weeks of treatment (GOS [less than or equal to] 2). UMIN clinical trial registration number: UMIN000005399.
RESULTS:
Of 471 randomized patients, 454 were included in the full analysis set. After 4 weeks of treatment, sufficient symptom relief was achieved by 66.9% of patients in the omeprazole group, compared with 41.0%, 36.3% and 32.3% in the famotidine, mosapride and teprenone groups, respectively (all, p < 0.001 vs omeprazole). There were no treatment-related adverse events.
CONCLUSIONS:
The favorable efficacy and safety profiles of omeprazole in relieving uninvestigated upper gastrointestinal symptoms support its use as first-line treatment in this patient group in Japan. Patients who show no improvement in symptoms despite PPI use, and those with alarm symptoms (such as vomiting, GI bleeding or acute weight loss) should receive further investigation, including prompt referral for endoscopy. Trial registration UMIN000005399. |
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Wed May 09, 2012 2:58 pm |
Okay, so relief was achieved by 32.3% of people taking teprenone 50 mg three times daily for gastrointestinal symptoms in the study.. No treatment related adverse events were noted.
What does this study have to do with the topical application of (what I would assume to be) a tiny amount of Teprenone in a cosmeceutical? |
_________________
♥I'm flattered by all the lovely PM's, but I don't get here much these days. Please don't be afraid to post your quearies to other DIY members who will be glad to help you (or sell you their wares..lol) Still happy with LED, dermarolling and a DIY antioxidant regime. Peace & Hugs to all.♥ |
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Wed May 09, 2012 3:13 pm |
| Kassy_A wrote: |
Okay, so relief was achieved by 32.3% of people taking teprenone 50 mg three times daily for gastrointestinal symptoms in the study.. No treatment related adverse events were noted.
What does this study have to do with the topical application of (what I would assume to be) a tiny amount of Teprenone in a cosmeceutical? |
My guess: probably nothing. |
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Wed May 09, 2012 3:34 pm |
| Lotusesther wrote: |
| Kassy_A wrote: |
Okay, so relief was achieved by 32.3% of people taking teprenone 50 mg three times daily for gastrointestinal symptoms in the study.. No treatment related adverse events were noted.
What does this study have to do with the topical application of (what I would assume to be) a tiny amount of Teprenone in a cosmeceutical? |
My guess: probably nothing. |
My guess is the same! |
_________________
I'LL SEE YOU ON THE DARKSIDE OF THE MOON.... |
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Wed May 09, 2012 3:39 pm |
| Lotusesther wrote: |
| Kassy_A wrote: |
Okay, so relief was achieved by 32.3% of people taking teprenone 50 mg three times daily for gastrointestinal symptoms in the study.. No treatment related adverse events were noted.
What does this study have to do with the topical application of (what I would assume to be) a tiny amount of Teprenone in a cosmeceutical? |
My guess: probably nothing. |
Perhaps it is because there is no (i.e. NONE, NADA, ZERO) credible evidence for its use as a cosmeceutical that we are left to look at its use an ulcer drug. Now it turns out to be not even a very good ulcer drug. But maybe that's good, because its mechanism of action on the GI lining is to produce mucous (snot) which protects against acid erosion. Maybe this study means there is less mucous being produced than previously thought. Which could be a blessing in disguise for those people putting it on their skin (epithelial cells just like gastric lining). In fact I think they should use this study and make it into a marketing slogan. RENOVAGE- LESS SNOT THAN PREVIOUSLY THOUGHT. |
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Wed May 09, 2012 4:25 pm |
| I didn't know facial skin was a mucous membrane... |
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Wed May 09, 2012 6:44 pm |
| Quote: |
| RENOVAGE- LESS SNOT THAN PREVIOUSLY THOUGHT. |
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_________________
If you make, first do no harm, your Law, you will never strike the first blow and will be known as a man of peace who can fight like ten tigers, a Human in the act of Being. There is no greater rank than this. Ashida Kim on War.~Cellese~AnteAge Serum and Accelerator, DermaRoller ,MyFawnie AA2G serum, KNN G ForceUltrasound., SEA, ChrySun 25% ZnO |
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Sun Jun 10, 2012 2:41 pm |
| Lotusesther wrote: |
| Kassy_A wrote: |
Okay, so relief was achieved by 32.3% of people taking teprenone 50 mg three times daily for gastrointestinal symptoms in the study.. No treatment related adverse events were noted.
What does this study have to do with the topical application of (what I would assume to be) a tiny amount of Teprenone in a cosmeceutical? |
My guess: probably nothing. |
I am still trying to understand if this is so awful, why is it in tons of products being sold now? |
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