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Thu Mar 23, 2006 12:22 am  |
OK I just read this, what do you think? How much is too much, and is using a glycolic or other types of exfoliators causing accelerated aging?
"The dangers of excessive skin exfoliation:
Less wrinkles today could mean more wrinkles tomorrow
Main benefits of alpha hydroxy acids come from their ability to exfoliate skin. Removal of the outermost layer of the skin stimulates the cells in lower layers to grow and divide, causing the skin to thicken and thus diminishing visible signs of aging. The more you exfoliate the more cell divisions will occur in the lower skin layers. There is one problem though. Normal human cells cannot divide indefinitely. Fibroblasts (a key type of cells in the skin) would divide about fifty times and then enter a so-called stage of senescence. This limit of about fifty cell divisions is called the Hayflick limit (after its discoverer, Dr. Leonard Hayflick). This is a state in which the cell is sluggish, inefficient, unresponsive to various signals from the body and unable to divide. Skin with many senescent cells is usually fragile blotchy and easily wrinkled.
Exfoliation remains a valuable cosmetic tool but if you overuse it, your skin may "hit the Hayflick limit" earlier than it should. In recent years, researchers have discovered the molecular mechanism of the Hayflick limit. (It has to do with the areas at the tips of chromosomes called telomeres). Medical technologies to eliminate the Hayflick limit may appear in a reasonably near future. These technologies are likely to work only for those cells whose Hayflick limit has not yet been reached.
Today's good news is that Hayflick limit does not appear to be carved in stone. Research indicates that very simple measures available today may help extend it by as much as 50 percent. (Further details are included in the Skin Rejuvenation Infopack ). "
http://users.erols.com/gtodorov/skincare/aha_bha.htm |
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Thu Mar 23, 2006 6:42 am |
| Not long after I joined this forum, someone mentioned the Hayflick limit. After checking it out, I was very alarmed to say the least. But since then, I've read two different articles about health and disease where the Hayflick limit was referred to and dismissed. I think the basis of dismissal had something to do with faulty testing or conclusions drawn by Dr. Hayflick. |
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Thu Mar 23, 2006 8:54 am |
| There are some good studies on skin thickness and exfoliation using acid peels or microdermabrasion. They do not address the hayflick limit but found stimulation of collegan production and increased skin thickness with some exfoliation but skin thinning with too frequent exfoliation. The "too much" varies from person to person but I think you'd know if you were going too far. |
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Thu Mar 23, 2006 9:22 am |
I asked my derm about the Hayflick Limit as well, and she felt it wasn't a concern either.
-Cheri |
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Thu Mar 23, 2006 9:51 am |
JMHO, I think there may be something to it. I mean there are theories that our hearts are pre-programmed to beat a certain number of times based on our genes (can be altered by lifestyle of course), why not skin? I think there MAY BE a limited to a number of turnover until cells just give up.
I just don't know what to believe any more 
"Everything is good in moderation" probably works for peels and microderms, too. |
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Thu Mar 23, 2006 10:27 pm |
Hi pumaka - Here's a snippet I found that is essentialy like other things I've read that refute the Hayflick Theory:
Hayflick limit
In 1961 Leonard Hayflick and Paul Moorhead demonstrated that human cells in culture can only divide a limited amount of times. This phenomenon, is called replicative senescence. Hayflick's theory illustrates two pitfalls. He presumed that cells in culture had all that is needed for survival, which may not be so. An undetectable deficiency of a growth factor may let cells divide only a limited amount of times. After all most cancer cells can divide in vitro for ever.
The second pitfall is known here as context fallacy, A phenomenon discovered in a narrow context (petri dish) is applied as such to the wider context of the organism. Certain cell lines such as hemopoietic cells, bone marrow, epithelial cells in the skin and gastrointestinal mucosa, endure many more population doublings in vivo than they do in vitro. Hayflick limit is a laboratory artifact which does not apply to the organism. |
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Fri Mar 24, 2006 7:18 am |
Thanks, M.April. That's interesting. I'm sure there's a huge difference between in vitro and in vivo testing.
Still, I think the entire nutrition and gerontology fields are not fully studied and there are very few absolute truths regarding it out there All the links aren't discovered yet. I'm keeping an open mind for now, not defending any one position just thinking anything's possible. |
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Fri Aug 09, 2013 4:10 am |
Hi all,
I have skin that is very lined, dehydrated, wrinkly and creepy looking, with large pores, scars and purple/brown marks from acne also. For the last six months or so, it seems to not 'work' properly. Products don't seem to sink in, even oils, skin appears very damaged and dented with thousands of fine lines, unable to respond etc.
I had been told that due to extreme over exfoliation I had ruined my skin barrier and had severe dehydration. Another cosmetic skin specialist told me about the Hayflick theory and said that it seems that my case gives it some credence, as my skin literally seemed to age 10-15 years in a couple months.
For the record I am Caucasian male, early twenties. I sincerely hope I haven't reached my cell limit and caused extreme aging. I am very depressed over this. 
Anyway, just don't over exfoliate! Check the ph balance of your products, and less is definitely more.
*dream* |
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Fri Aug 09, 2013 7:13 am |
My exfoliation is usually done with a facecloth when I wash my face. I have always believed over-exfoliation would cause skin trauma because the reason for exfoliating is to remove dead cells and reveal new fresh cells, which usually happens whether you do it yourself or not, but this slows down with age hence the need for a helping hand. I have always thought surely it takes a while for the new cells to die and be in need of removal so if you did it too soon, you would be tearing away at cells that are not loose or ready to go. So when I read about over-exfoliation leading to skin breakdown in an article a few years ago (although I don't recall ever seeing the word "Hayflick" before now), it made sense to me. So every time I would read of people doing peels often, I would cringe. But it seems exfoliation is so addictive as I found it hard to get people to believe less was best once they were hooked on weekly peels even while in their 20's when skin turnover is still pretty good.
In the past when I would use physical exfoliants like microdermabrasion, while my skin would feel great shortly after, it seemed to demand more of the same in a few days as if turning me into some sort of junkie. The less I used them, the less I needed them so eventually I just stopped. (I used an AHA (Estee Lauder Fruition Extra) in my 20's but I cannot remember if the same thing would happen.) I found this "need for more" would also happen if I used lip balms with a sugar scrub. Felt good on application but my lips would develop this hard, dry skin that needed peeling off within a day or so and I would go from having normal lips that just need a light balm to lips that were raw and cracking and always dry. Of course the other mistake was in the product having menthol which led to discoloration and some ugly patchwork on the lips.
It is because of my experience with exfoliation that the first time I saw the PedEgg, I knew that was the worst thing you could use on your feet. It just looked to me like it would tear so much skin off and lead to thicker, rougher skin growing back so you needed to do it again sooner and even harder.
The skeptic in me has always felt that the thinking behind many products is "in order to stay in business, the product should convince people they need more of it so they can keep using or buying it". So when I see freebies advertised on TV or new products with a "full money-back guarantee if you don't like the product", I always suspect that it will create a monster in you that feels you can't do without it so you end up buying more.  I remember when Olay came up with a lotion you applied to wet skin in the shower, my skin felt like butter after I used it. But the next time I took a shower, you would've thought I used salt to wash my skin: it got so dry that I HAD to use that lotion. Prior to bringing this newbie into my life, my skin had never felt that dry. I stopped using it, and my skin returned to normal. All that glitters is not gold, so yeah, I am not big fun of "new things".
*dream* thank you for sharing. While I have suspected this to be possible, I had never "met" anyone for whom it was true so I appreciate your confirmation but I am so sorry this happened to you. (((Big Hug))). I do agree with pumaka, "All things in moderation" and I also believe that in a lot of things, "less is more". |
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Fri Aug 09, 2013 9:28 am |
| *dream* wrote: |
Hi all,
I have skin that is very lined, dehydrated, wrinkly and creepy looking, with large pores, scars and purple/brown marks from acne also. For the last six months or so, it seems to not 'work' properly. Products don't seem to sink in, even oils, skin appears very damaged and dented with thousands of fine lines, unable to respond etc.
I had been told that due to extreme over exfoliation I had ruined my skin barrier and had severe dehydration. Another cosmetic skin specialist told me about the Hayflick theory and said that it seems that my case gives it some credence, as my skin literally seemed to age 10-15 years in a couple months.
For the record I am Caucasian male, early twenties. I sincerely hope I haven't reached my cell limit and caused extreme aging. I am very depressed over this.
Anyway, just don't over exfoliate! Check the ph balance of your products, and less is definitely more.
*dream* |
Dream, I am so sorry that happened to you. You are very young and time is on your side. I am sure that your skin will rebound, but it may take awhile. Continue to take good care of it.
Some suggestions would be to take some collagen capsules (I take Hyaluronic Acid with Biocell Collagen II that was recommended here). Also you may want to look into copper peptides (skinbiology). Eat a very good diet of whole foods and lots of water. Try to attack this problem from the inside out.
Please don't give up hope. I have children your age, so my heart goes out to you. |
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Fri Aug 09, 2013 10:11 am |
I'm not too worried about it. I'm 58 and my skin always looks better when I exfoliate.
I use a slightly scratchy microfiber washcloth in the shower every day. I don't scrub hard with it, but it provides sufficient exfoliation that I am able to do away with using hydroxy acids. |
_________________
Derminator, phytoceramides, Retin-A, DIY Vitamin C serum, Ageless if You Dare and Pilates! |
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Fri Aug 09, 2013 3:02 pm |
I only ever use a facial sponge/mitt for occasional light exfoliation and only intermittently when my skin looks a dull. I never needed to use them when I had younger skin - it has been since the menopause. (And if you have ever had a cast on a broken limb for 5 or 6 weeks, as I did recently, when you take it off it really brings it home how much skin we all shed naturally anyway, even palms  .) I think over-exfoliation with some of the more extreme treatments is interfering too much with the natural process - but I also believe skin can rebound from this over time if allowed to. |
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Sat Aug 10, 2013 3:30 am |
Hey all,
Thanks so much for the encouraging words and support.
nonie aka AD The cosmetic specialist suggested it and said it appeared this was the best explanation in my case, but I am hoping that it just is a compromised skin barrier that WILL eventually heal. I'm trying to hold onto that thought (very hard to do). I have just started PRP (platelet rich plasma) treatment with him, and I'm hoping this will regenerate the skin. I'm using simple products, OCM, Aloe Vera straight from the plant, and Cerave (as well as sunscreen) as my only topicals. My next step is Epionce and I just ordered ceramide and hyaluronic acid supple ts. I already take spirulina, colloidal silica, vitamin c, evening primrose oil, and eat plenty of fatty fish (at least three times every week) and more than five fruits and vegetables daily. I eat junk food (very small amount) once every week or two. I'm off dairy also.
panoslydios I am hoping this 'theory' remains just that, and that I'm really not a case proving it correct. I do think skin should be able to regenerate. If PRP doesn't work, I will even look at stem cell therapy derived from fat cells.
I also exercise and take ginkgo biloba pure extract from a top naturopath. Hopefully my circulation is ok.
swissmom I just hope my story can help others, and prevent people from over doing exfoliation ( I always did mine as suggested by 'specialists'). I have ordered ceramide and hyaluronic supplements (source naturals with Biocell) and should get them soon.
Thanks everyone for your suggestions. I will continue to update my progress on this thread and related threads, so that if my skin DOES bounce back, then as someone that *could*!have experienced Hayflick limit and recovered, it may help others.
Dreaming of the day when I wake up with nice skin...
*dream* |
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sam1991
New Member
 
Joined: 24 Oct 2013
Posts: 1
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Thu Oct 24, 2013 10:49 pm |
I'm in a similar situation. I used a exfoliating scrub daily for two weeks and my skin is destroyed. I have fine lines and wrinkles under my eyes, next to my nose, and around my mouth. I'm in my early 20s as well and also so depressed to the point where I can't even function. I've become obsessed with how old I suddenly look, and trying to figure out how to fix it.
It's been over a month since this happened, and I have not seen any improvement. It's possible it's even worse. I used a heavy moisturizer but I had the same problem, where it never even sank in. Even olive oil didn't really absorb - in the past it would have made be break out. Now I'm going to try some natural carrier oils. My skin just seems so stretched out and inelastic now. My skin was perfect before, I didn't have a single line under my eyes.
Have you found any improvement? Do you have any suggestions? It's been so hard for me to find any information on this.
| *dream* wrote: |
Hi all,
I have skin that is very lined, dehydrated, wrinkly and creepy looking, with large pores, scars and purple/brown marks from acne also. For the last six months or so, it seems to not 'work' properly. Products don't seem to sink in, even oils, skin appears very damaged and dented with thousands of fine lines, unable to respond etc.
I had been told that due to extreme over exfoliation I had ruined my skin barrier and had severe dehydration. Another cosmetic skin specialist told me about the Hayflick theory and said that it seems that my case gives it some credence, as my skin literally seemed to age 10-15 years in a couple months.
For the record I am Caucasian male, early twenties. I sincerely hope I haven't reached my cell limit and caused extreme aging. I am very depressed over this.
Anyway, just don't over exfoliate! Check the ph balance of your products, and less is definitely more.
*dream* |
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Fri Oct 25, 2013 1:46 am |
sam1991 I think there is plenty of hope for your face at your age, so do not despair. Perhaps the advice given to applesz in the following thread might be helpful to you, especially the advice from bethany on repairing your skin barrier. Check it out:
http://www.essentialdayspa.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=49272
I think keeping things simple for a spell will be your best move. Also, because what you put inside your body plays a part in the way you look, try to eat a diet that is healing to your body like the one suggested here:
http://www.shapeyourface.com/nutrition.htm |
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Fri Oct 25, 2013 3:21 am |
| sam1991 wrote: |
| I'm in a similar situation. I used a exfoliating scrub daily for two weeks and my skin is destroyed. I have fine lines and wrinkles under my eyes, next to my nose, and around my mouth. I'm in my early 20s as well and also so depressed to the point where I can't even function. I've become obsessed with how old I suddenly look, and trying to figure out how to fix it. |
Did the product tell you to exfoliate daily or did you read somewhere that this is beneficial? Young skin renews so quickly, this should not be necessary - in fact even at any age IMO it is too much. I am over 60 and still only exfoliate occasionally, very lightly, with a mitt. When younger I used to use the buff puff but don't think it is around now. I agree to keep things simple for now, using baby cream possibly (with no added perfumes etc) - I always say if it is good enough for a baby's bottom, it is good enough for my face  and have been using such a cream since my 20s as a moisturiser/cleanser. |
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Fri Oct 25, 2013 5:13 am |
Sounds like you've pushed it past the inflammatory point - suggest you search for topicals effective in repair and give the skin a chance to heal. At this point, further efforts would likely only be damaging.
You can search here or offline for solutions - there are several.
BFG |
_________________
Not Affiliated with any products or gadgets, encourage other posters here to state their affiliations in their signature line |
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