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Can Vitamin C Serum be made with pure Hyaluronic Acid Base??

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mermaid7000
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Wed Mar 29, 2006 8:36 am      Reply with quote
Can Vitamin C Serum be made with pure Hyaluronic Acid Base and nothing else in it but Ascorbic Acid and hyaluronic acid. I don't like Propylene glycol or glycerin in mine. I know it may not keep as long, but I'd be willing to make a new batch once a week if needed. Is this possible?? If so, would this be the amounts I need for the recipe?:

1/4 teaspoon of Lysorbic Acid (Vit-C) powder or crysals
• 5 ml distilled water
• 5 ml of Hyaluronic Acid
(or skip the water and just 10 ml of Hyaluronic acid)?
hpjrt
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Wed Mar 29, 2006 10:48 am      Reply with quote
Hi mermaid7000,

Hyaluronic acid is quite expensive ... probably too expensive to put into a new serum every week or so.

Besides, what you refer to as "pure" Hyaluronic Acid really is 99% water and 1% Hyaluronic Acid.

At 2% concentration, Hyaluronic Acid is an almost solid gel ... which can't be used topically.

So ... what you're wanting to know is if you can make a Vitamin C serum out of 10 ml Hyaluronic Acid 1% solution and l-ascorbic acid powder/crystals ... so that the liquid portion of the serum is 100% HA 1% solution.

The answer is "yes" ... but I'd be wanting to add some sort of preservative to ensure that I wasn't wasting the Hyaluronic Acid.

I use HA in my Vitamin C & E serum, and really like it.

Mary

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mermaid7000
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Wed Mar 29, 2006 11:03 am      Reply with quote
So with 1/4 tsp ascorbic acid and 10 ml hyaluronic acid....does that make a 10% or 15% vitamin C formula? On the formulas chart she doesnt state.
hpjrt
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Wed Mar 29, 2006 11:44 am      Reply with quote
Hi again mermaid7000,

I use the same recipe ... and I believe that it's a 10% Vitamin C solution ... at least that's what I've always figured it to be. Laughing

If you wanted a 20% solution, I wonder if it's just a matter of reducing the liquid from 10 ml to 5 ml? Very Happy

I mean that makes sense ... but sometimes what seems to make sense to me doesn't make sense to anyone else ... Laughing

However, I must try that one of these days.

Mary

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mermaid7000
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Wed Mar 29, 2006 12:04 pm      Reply with quote
Thanks!!

I guess the option of just mixing Distilled water and ascorbic acid, without the hyaluronic acid isnt an option??
pnw
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Wed Mar 29, 2006 12:18 pm      Reply with quote
Hi Mary,
How do you make your serum exactly?
Thanks
Chrissie
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Wed Mar 29, 2006 12:39 pm      Reply with quote
I have not had good luck making my Vit C serum. I use
3 ml HA,
2 ml distilled water,
5 ml PG
1/4 teaspoon Vit C powder

its thick...like a gel. I can add more distilled water, to think it but I'm sure it dilutes the Vit C way too much. I would like a 20% serum. So any Vit C/HA recipes would be greatly appreciated my me also!!!!!

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hpjrt
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Wed Mar 29, 2006 1:14 pm      Reply with quote
Hi PNW,

Okay ... Laughing ... here goes my variation on the basic recipe.

    1. I measure out the Vitamin C crystals [I have had pretty good luck with using a mortar and pestle to crush the crystals a little more so that they dissolve better] ... and using a funnel, I pour these into a 15 ml amber dropper bottle.

    2. I measure out 1/2 tsp of distilled water and pour into amber glass bottle.

    3. I measure out 1 tsp of HA 1% solution and pour into amber glass bottle.

    4. I shake this until the Vitamin C powder/crystals are dissolved.

    5. In a small dish [I often use a shot glass for this], I measure out

    1/2 tsp of PG
    contents of 1 lecithin capsule
    contents of 1 Vitamin E capsule [400 IU]
    tweensy amount of xanthan gum [as a suspending agent and thickener]

    6. Using a small stick blender I "beat" this mixture for several minutes.

    7. I pour the Vitamin C solution into this small bowl and mix for a few seconds.

    9. Pour everything into the amber glass bottle.


Now, I do have to shake this every morning ... or at least I shake it to ensure that the oil and water solutions are nicely mixed together.

Ideally one would use an emulsifier ... and while the xanthan gum is great at suspending things, it doesn't really emulsify ... and lecithin alone isn't enough to fully emulsify the serum either.

So that's how I do it ... it's not the most scientific procedure in the world Laughing ... but I find it makes a very nice serum with a lovely texture and a slightly thicker consistency than it would have without the xanthan gum.

I'm sure there will be lots of people ready to tell me that I'm doing this all wrong Confused ... but it works for me.

Mary

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Lanie
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Wed Mar 29, 2006 1:26 pm      Reply with quote
The recipe I have says to use KY Jelly as a base, is this bad? Embarassed
hpjrt
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Wed Mar 29, 2006 1:59 pm      Reply with quote
Hi Lanie,

Gee ... I don't know. I guess you'd have to look at the ingredients of KY ... and see if any of those things are bothersome to your skin.

Where did you see this recipe?

You know Very Happy ... it's really not a bad idea ... except I don't know how the Vitamin C crystals/powder would dissolve in it.

I must go and check out the ingredients in KY! Laughing

Mary

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Wed Mar 29, 2006 3:22 pm      Reply with quote
hpjrt wrote:
Hi PNW,

Okay ... Laughing ... here goes my variation on the basic recipe.

    1. I measure out the Vitamin C crystals [I have had pretty good luck with using a mortar and pestle to crush the crystals a little more so that they dissolve better] ... and using a funnel, I pour these into a 15 ml amber dropper bottle.

    2. I measure out 1/2 tsp of distilled water and pour into amber glass bottle.

    3. I measure out 1 tsp of HA 1% solution and pour into amber glass bottle.

    4. I shake this until the Vitamin C powder/crystals are dissolved.

    5. In a small dish [I often use a shot glass for this], I measure out

    1/2 tsp of PG
    contents of 1 lecithin capsule
    contents of 1 Vitamin E capsule [400 IU]
    tweensy amount of xanthan gum [as a suspending agent and thickener]

    6. Using a small stick blender I "beat" this mixture for several minutes.

    7. I pour the Vitamin C solution into this small bowl and mix for a few seconds.

    9. Pour everything into the amber glass bottle.


Now, I do have to shake this every morning ... or at least I shake it to ensure that the oil and water solutions are nicely mixed together.

Ideally one would use an emulsifier ... and while the xanthan gum is great at suspending things, it doesn't really emulsify ... and lecithin alone isn't enough to fully emulsify the serum either.

So that's how I do it ... it's not the most scientific procedure in the world Laughing ... but I find it makes a very nice serum with a lovely texture and a slightly thicker consistency than it would have without the xanthan gum.

I'm sure there will be lots of people ready to tell me that I'm doing this all wrong Confused ... but it works for me.

Mary


Being numerically challenged myself Very Happy , how long does this much serum last you, using it every a.m.? Also, how long is this stable in the fridge?
Gayle
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Wed Mar 29, 2006 3:26 pm      Reply with quote
Lanie wrote:
The recipe I have says to use KY Jelly as a base, is this bad? Embarassed


That's the instructions I also was given and have been using. It dissolves fine for me. It is a bit sticky, so I sometimes put a drop or 2 of water in my palm when I put it on my face to mix it with. Distilled water.
hpjrt
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Wed Mar 29, 2006 3:44 pm      Reply with quote
Hi Gayle,

Quote:
Being numerically challenged myself , how long does this much serum last you, using it every a.m.? Also, how long is this stable in the fridge?


This lasts me for about 2 to 3 weeks ... and while I'm not certain if it remains at 10% for that length of time, I once took this serum at the two week mark, spread a few drops onto half a sliced apple, and the apple was still white the next day.

Now ... I read somewhere that this was a test for the "effectiveness" of a Vitamin C serum ... but I don't know how reliable that test is. Laughing

Quote:
That's the instructions I also was given and have been using. It dissolves fine for me. It is a bit sticky, so I sometimes put a drop or 2 of water in my palm when I put it on my face to mix it with. Distilled water.


If you dilute it further, then you also dilute the concentration of the Vitamin C ... don't you? Confused

Wouldn't it be better to use 1/2 KY ... and 1/2 Distilled Water when making the serum? That way it wouldn't be too sticky ... and you wouldn't be diluting the concentration.

Just a thought.

Mary

ps ... I couldn't find the ingredients for KY ... but they say it's water-based ... I just don't know if I have the nerve to purchase KY for this purpose! Laughing

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Wed Mar 29, 2006 3:53 pm      Reply with quote
Hi Mary,
Thanks for posting your vitamin C recipe, it sounds great! Do you think it has a lighter consistency than the regular recipe using just the PG and water alone? It still feels kind of masky to me and I don't get the nice glow I usually get when I buy a C serum. Also, I know HA is expensive and some members use NA-PCA instead for hydration purposes. I have heard it is a spray by TwinLabs. I wonder if I could just use this as a base and add my vitamin C? Any thoughts?

Great idea using the funnel, I was trying to figure that one out still.
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Wed Mar 29, 2006 4:54 pm      Reply with quote
Hi PNW,

It's not a good idea to use NaPCA as a base for l-ascorbic acid. They "fight" one another according to the experts.

I can't recall exactly what the quoted abstract said [because I'm not good at understanding some of those things Smile ]... but it indicated that NaPCA and ascorbic acid in any form were not good "bed fellows." Laughing

I suspect that you'd get very little, if any, benefit from either if used together.

Mary

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Wed Mar 29, 2006 5:09 pm      Reply with quote
Thanks, Mary
I've also pm'd Darren about this and will post any reply I receive. You are such a big help!
pnw
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Wed Mar 29, 2006 6:31 pm      Reply with quote
Wow. Here's what Darren says. I'm surprised, now we have opposing views. Anyone else like to comment? It would be so cool if I could use this to make my serum with.

From Darren:

Quote:
Those ingredients should be fine with the vitamin c serum. It's an interesting formulation. Let me know how you like it!
hpjrt
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Wed Mar 29, 2006 6:57 pm      Reply with quote
Well PNW,

I checked one of the abstracts that I had saved on my hard drive ... it was from

Biomed Mater Eng. 1995;5(1):9-20

And, in part it said:

"The higher the concentration of PCA Na used, the lower value of the permeability coefficient of vitamin C through the excised skin and the downward spectral shift of asymmetric CH2 band were obtained.

When PCA Na coexisted with vitamin C in the cell donor compartment, a competitive effect between PCA Na and vitamin C was found."


Now, like I say, I don't quite understand all these things ... but I think the abstract itself is to be trusted ...

Perhaps you could send the above quote and source to Darren and see what he says? For all I know, it's out of date ... and new information indicates just the opposite of what this abstract says! Laughing

He'd certainly know more than I do. I'd just hate to see you combine the two things only to find that each was rendered ineffective by virtue of the other. Smile

Mary

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Wed Mar 29, 2006 8:05 pm      Reply with quote
Quote:
Perhaps you could send the above quote and source to Darren and see what he says? For all I know, it's out of date ... and new information indicates just the opposite of what this abstract says!


I know, this happens a lot, huh? I do appreciate your taking the time to find the info and for looking out for me. Very Happy I will try and find more up to date info on this, thanks.
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Wed Mar 29, 2006 8:51 pm      Reply with quote
hpjrt wrote:
Hi Gayle,

Quote:
Being numerically challenged myself , how long does this much serum last you, using it every a.m.? Also, how long is this stable in the fridge?


This lasts me for about 2 to 3 weeks ... and while I'm not certain if it remains at 10% for that length of time, I once took this serum at the two week mark, spread a few drops onto half a sliced apple, and the apple was still white the next day.

Now ... I read somewhere that this was a test for the "effectiveness" of a Vitamin C serum ... but I don't know how reliable that test is.

Quote:
That's the instructions I also was given and have been using. It dissolves fine for me. It is a bit sticky, so I sometimes put a drop or 2 of water in my palm when I put it on my face to mix it with. Distilled water.


If you dilute it further, then you also dilute the concentration of the Vitamin C ... don't you? Confused

Wouldn't it be better to use 1/2 KY ... and 1/2 Distilled Water when making the serum? That way it wouldn't be too sticky ... and you wouldn't be diluting the concentration.

Just a thought.

Mary

ps ... I couldn't find the ingredients for KY ... but they say it's water-based ... I just don't know if I have the nerve to purchase KY for this purpose!
Laughing


The reason for not putting the water in when making it is, that I was told it would only (probably) be stable in the fridge for a week instead of 2.

Hey, if you buy KY, no one would know just WHY you were buying it! Laughing
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Wed Mar 29, 2006 8:56 pm      Reply with quote
do you guys know where to get 1%HA solution other than from personalformulator.com?

without preservatives how long can HA solution stay "fresh" for (i made ha solution with caps and witch hazel)


have you guys purchased from SkinActives.com? i wanted to get HA and ascorbic acid from them... but i don't know if their ascorbic acid is L-Ascorbic?

Mary,
is your 1% HA solution from personalformulator?

Thanks
April.

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Wed Mar 29, 2006 9:13 pm      Reply with quote
Ok, I did some googling and found this about NaPCA.

Quote:
The ability of skin to hold moisture is directly related to its NaPCA (sodium pyrolidone carboxylic acid) content. NaPCA is one of the skin's most important natural moisturizers. Old skin, however, contains only about half the NaPCA as young skin. NaPCA facilitates the moistening by pulling water in out of the air. Optimal protection against age-accelerating dehydration is best obtained by the topical application of NaPCA, hyaluronic acid, lactic acid, urea, Ceraphyl® NGA and squalane every day.

This was repeated on various websites throughout my search. I also found the term PCa was used in studies when tests were done on "prostate cancer" cells with vitamins so there could be some general confusion with the terms? I dunno. Also, during my search I came across several products that contained both NaPCA and L-ascorbic acid, so I am assuming it is ok.
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Thu Mar 30, 2006 12:00 am      Reply with quote
What do you all think of this recipe for my base, would it work out ok to use less propylene glycol?

1 tsp of distilled water

1/2 tsp of Twinlabs sodium pca

1/2 tsp of PG

plus vitamin C
I'm Kiki
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Thu Mar 30, 2006 12:10 am      Reply with quote
About the KY...

It does work, but it's stickier than if you use plain PG.. But, the KY has to be the ULTRA.. It has the PG in it.. I think it's the 2nd ingredient, water being the 1st... I used it until I got my PG from the compounding pharmacy...
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Thu Mar 30, 2006 12:19 am      Reply with quote
did anyone here use the KY for vitamin c serum and have acne prone skin?

im scared there are ingredients in the KY that's irritating to acne prone skin...

does anyone have the ingredient list for KY?

thanks

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