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Sat Feb 14, 2004 8:33 am |
Alohagirl,
I remember reading a post of yours a while back where you said if your using a moisturizer with UV/sunscreen protection, it loses it's potency if you layer other products on top-- did you mean makeup?
What is your favorite moisturizer with SPF? Are there chemical SPF's or is it safe to assume that SPF means titanium dioxide or zinc oxide only? thanks in advance! |
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Sat Feb 14, 2004 7:43 pm |
Thoughtcrime,
I laugh every time one of you guys calls me the sun goddess or sunblock guru. It's nice to be appreciated!
Question 1: A sun "screen" is a chemical ingredient that absorbs the sun's ultra-violet radiation and holds it, keeping it from penetrating your skin. According to what I've read, it can only do this if it's sitting on the topmost surface of your skin. If it is covered by any substance such as moisturizer or makeup, it becomes useless.
Women who wear makeup usually don't notice that their sunscreen isn't working because most foundations provide some degree of physical barrier to the sun--even brands without an advertised SPF. So it never became an issue. They're just wasting time and money on a sunscreen that never gets a chance to work.
Question 2: I don't wear a moisturizer with SPF because they are made with "sunscreens" not "sunblocks." So because I wear foundation every day to cover redness, the sunscreen would be rendered useless anyway. Foundation has always been enough to protect my light-olive skin from burning, but since I never apply it around my eyes (it emphasizes small lines) I've been applying DDF's Physical sunblock to the eye area if I'll be outside a lot. And now that I've discovered mineral foundation, my face gets excellent protection.
Question 3: "SPF" applies to chemical sunscreens AND physical sunblocks. If you want to know whether a product is a sun-SCREEN or a sun-BLOCK, look at the ingredient list. If the main ingredients are Zinc and/or Titanium, it will physically "block" the sun.
HTH
--Alohagirl:P |
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Sat Feb 14, 2004 8:27 pm |
thanks again Alohagirl, I really do appreciate all your sunblock/sunscreen knowledge. I've learned so much from you! So I guess I need to find a moisturizer who's active ingredients are zinc and titanium oxide. It seems like most moisturizers advertise an SPF, but not a sunblock. Anyone know any good moisturizers with sunblock? |
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Sun Feb 15, 2004 5:18 pm |
It's all so tricky, isn't it? My morning broth consists of a layer of Skinceuticals serum 15, Hydra-B, then after it absorbs, a layer of regular moisturizer. THEN, once the moisturizer has absorbed, I slather on the sunblock. I've been putting foundation on over that - should I not be? Or is it just sun-SCREEN that loses its power when something is applied over it? The reason I use a separate moisturizer and then sunblock is that the sunblocks I was using didn't seem to provide a really nice moisturizing effect. But boy, the routine is a bit lengthy. Also, I keep wondering if there IS a terrific moisturizing sunblock.
Regardless, I simply must get some mineral foundation. Where does it end (not that I want it to, of course. Where would I be without my endless search for fabulous products?) ?!! |
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Mabsy
Moderator
Joined: 17 Aug 2003
Posts: 9644
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Sun Feb 15, 2004 6:41 pm |
Quote: |
Originally posted by alohagirl
So because I wear foundation every day to cover redness, the sunscreen would be rendered useless anyway. |
Alohagirl,
Could you clarify what you mean by useless? Is it because your foundation has an SPF? To the best of my knowledge a sunscreen still works even if it is covered up by something. It does NOT work however if it is not the first thing that you put on your skin. Sunscreen works by 'reacting' with your skin (which is why you should apply it about 20 mins before sun exposure - you need to give it time to do 'it's thing' with your skin). However once it reacts with your skin, it still absorbs the radiation even if there is something on top of it.
Meanwhile, a sunblock can be applied at any stage (under or over other products) and you don't have to wait 'x' minutes before sun exposure because it is a physical block that works from the minute you put it on your skin. Well, that's what I've been told anyway.
Looking at my 'collection' of products with SPF, moisturisers tend to have a combination of chemical and physical sunblocks, though they have a higher concentration of the chemical ones.
Mabsy.
ETA: Sorry, if I've used the terms 'sunblock' and 'sunscreen' interchangeably. In Australia we don't really seem to differentiate between sunblock and sunscreen. The terms are pretty much used interchangeably. We tend to refer to ones that absorb radiation as 'chemical' sunblocks/sunscreens and ones that block radiation as 'physical' sunblocks/sunscreens. I try to use the 'sunblock' and 'sunscreen' terms as you do (I don't want to confuse anyone), but in the end years of habit take over |
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Mon Feb 16, 2004 1:05 am |
Mabsy,
I recently had a scary thing happen to me which led to heavy research on this subject. Because I'm a "California Beach Girl" who became a "Hawaii Surfer Chick" a good percentage of my life has been spent on a beach (completely unprotected by sunscreens, I might add!)
Several of my friends have had minor skin cancers dug out of them, so I expected that eventually I would too. What I didn't expect was Melanoma, the kind that kills! One day I noticed a weird mole on my upper chest. I didn't think much of it until it started itching nonstop and growing with record speed. I got an emergency appointment with a dermatologist/skin cancer specialist who said "OMG, IT GREW HOW FAST????" She was convinced it was Melanoma, so she cut it out (along with a chunk of my body) and sent it for biopsy. It would take ten days to get the results.
I spent those ten days doing research on skin cancer, treatment and UV protection. That's why I know so much about sunscreens and blocks.
As it turns out, the pathologist reported no cancer cells, and no idea what the he%# that thing was!!! But the experience put a big scare into me, so I continually update my knowledge of sun protection.
So, getting back to your comments, it is a little-known fact that chemical sunscreen ingredients only work if you put nothing on top of them. Many physicians and skincare professionals do not know this. It's the kind of thing that takes in-depth research to discover, and most people just don't have the time nor the inclination. (The threat of imminent death certainly gave ME the time and inclination!!!)
So according to what I've read, if your favorite moisturizer contains both chemical sunscreen ingredients and physical (organic) sunblock ingredients, and you put makeup on top, the chemical sunscreen ingredients are rendered useless (ineffective) but the physical sunblock ingredients will continue to protect you.
I hope this clarifies things. It's a bit technical and hard to explain.
--Alohagirl:P |
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Mabsy
Moderator
Joined: 17 Aug 2003
Posts: 9644
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Mon Feb 16, 2004 4:16 am |
Quote: |
Originally posted by alohagirl
So, getting back to your comments, it is a little-known fact that chemical sunscreen ingredients only work if you put nothing on top of them. Many physicians and skincare professionals do not know this. It's the kind of thing that takes in-depth research to discover, and most people just don't have the time nor the inclination. (The threat of imminent death certainly gave ME the time and inclination!!!)
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Thanks Alohagirl! Your experience sounds scary indeed, I've got a few moles that I am watching at the moment that seem a bit irregular and I'd be panicking if they started growing at a fast pace. Glad to hear it turned out to be non-cancerous!
Getting back to the chemical sunblock discussion though... I'm still having trouble understanding the concept behind why they are rendered ineffective when there is something over them. Chemical sunblocks get absorbed into the outer layer of the skin, so effectively your skin and the sunblock become "one" Technically, putting anything over your skin shouldn't do anything because your skin will still absorb the appropriate frequencies of the rays and convert them to energy... *puzzled look*
Anyways, if you ever come across any literature related to this could you send it my way? This is going to bug me until I understand the science behind it *sigh*
Just in case you're wondering.....Yes... I was one of those annoying kids that always asked their parents 1000s of questions about how things worked... :P
Mabsy |
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Mon Feb 16, 2004 8:49 am |
This is such a good forum that I learn so much about skincare.
After I have heard about the difference between sunblocks and sunscreens from alohagirl, I cannot stop wondering: if I am using SkinCeuticals Ultimate Defense SPF30 and apply make up (without any SPF) on top, am I still protected from the sun?? |
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Mon Feb 16, 2004 8:51 am |
or the SkinCeuticals Physical Defense SPF 30 a better choice if I use make up on daily basis??
Thanks in advance !! |
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Mon Feb 16, 2004 3:30 pm |
ANGELA: Both SkinCeuticals products you mentioned are excellent choices.
Skinceuticals "Ultimate" contains both chemical and physical protection, so when you use it, you're protected from every possible angle. If you put makeup on top of it, the physical ingredient (Zinc Oxide) will keep you protected.
Skinceuticals "Physical" contains only physical, organic protection derived from natural minerals, (Zinc Oxide and Titanium Dioxide). It's the best choice for people like me whose faces are sensitive to chemical sunscreens, or for people who believe chemicals cause health problems.
MABSY: You raise excellent questions. I've already tossed out my research notes, but when I have time, I'll try to retrace my steps and find the answers you're looking for.
--Alohagirl:P |
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Mon Feb 16, 2004 7:01 pm |
Thank you so much on the information, alohagirl !! Last nite, after reading your previous posts on difference between sunscreen and sunblock, I started to do a little research myself by surfing the net and reading the products labels. Thanks again for sharing your knowledge and they are very insightful !!
I wonder if you have tried both of the products yourself? If yes, which one you think is less oily and sticky? |
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Mon Feb 16, 2004 7:11 pm |
I haven't tried either one of them yet because I've got a fresh bottle of DDF physical block, which I really like. I almost bought the Skinceutical one instead but don't remember why I didn't.
According to Summetimegirl's review of the "Ultimate" product, it's a real winner!
--Alohagirl:P |
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Mon Feb 16, 2004 10:21 pm |
Okay, I had some extra time this afternoon so I searched for answers to Mabsy's question.
I used a variety of search engines, and no matter how I termed my search, any inquiry into "sunscreen" resulted in thousands of advertisements for companies selling sun products. Finding science articles was like searching for a needle in a haystack. American-style capitalism is definitely out of control!!
I spent hours searching and got nowhere--not a single reference to chemical sunscreens being rendered ineffective by makeup.
I don't understand it. A few months ago I was researching physical vs. chemical sunblocks and saw references to this all over the place. So why can't I find it now?!
I can only conclude that the makeup-over-sunscreen issue was disproven, so the info was removed from websites. (Quietly, I might add, because I saw no apologies or retractions!)
So the good news is, we can assume it's safe to layer anything we want on top of our sunscreens. (With the possible exception of insect repellent, but I won't go into detail in case THAT evidence disappears as well!)
--Alohagirl:P
P.S. If anyone stumbles across the missing information, please post it for us. Thanks! |
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Mabsy
Moderator
Joined: 17 Aug 2003
Posts: 9644
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Tue Feb 17, 2004 4:36 am |
Alohagirl,
Thanks so much for taking the time to look for it, I really appreciate it. I googled for it last night as well and couldn't find anything about it. Whether it's been disproven, or we just can't find it at the moment, I'd still like to read what their reasoning is behind it. So if anybody finds some info about it then please share
And yes, googling for this type of info is really annoying, you get *so* many pages that are just selling sun products....
Angela - The "Ultimate" Skinceuticals sunblock is really good, I ordered it last week after reading the review here on EDS I haven't tried the "Physical" one so I can't compare for you, sorry.
Mabsy |
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Fri Mar 05, 2004 7:22 pm |
Can someone give me an example of a "chemical" sunscreen? Also, there is no difference with the effectiveness of "physical" sunblock if you use moisturizer or makeup on top or below it??? |
_________________ If you feel life is soo bad, that it can't possibly get any worse...SMILE...For it can only get better! |
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Fri Mar 05, 2004 8:30 pm |
Goka,
Here are some examples of "chemical" sunscreens:
Octyl Methoxicinnamate, Octyl Salicylate, and Oxybenzone.
As for the question of applying something on top of chemical sunscreen, the information is still MIA so who knows? The effectiveness of physical sunblock, however, has not been questioned. Apply it first or last, and it will perform the same. |
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