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Tue May 23, 2006 3:05 am  |
Hi all,
Just wondering if anyone has tried this or has heard any reviews about it - it hasnt been mentiond on here yet.
I'm just curious, that's all, it seems frightfully expensive, but the ingredients packed in it read like a wishlist...and the Nobel prize gives it that xtra credibility!!!
Have a read atwww.zelens.com - it seems almost too good (and then you go to the price and cry  ) |
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Wed May 24, 2006 1:54 pm |
melissa have you seen the actual ingredient lists for the products or just what is on the webstie? I would be interested to see a complete ingredient list.
The "star" ingredient seems to be the fullerene c60 which is supposed to be some super antioxidant. I wish they provided some more evidence for their claims. It would be nice to see a study showing the effectiveness of their products. The other ingredients sound impressive but they do not say how much of them are in the products or supply ingredient lists so you could try to guess. The Nobel prize is meaningless in this context. It was not give for these products, it was given for the discovery (or creation I'm not sure which) of the fullerene.
That being said, it could be a very good product. But you won't see me spending that kind of money until I see further evidence of it's effectiveness! |
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Wed May 24, 2006 6:13 pm |
| I remember reading that Dr. Brandt uses fullerenes in some of his skin care line. |
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Thu May 25, 2006 5:15 am |
| I would definitely not use products with C60 in them. While pristine C60 may not be inherently genotoxic they are very small when not aggregated (true nano particles). They are small enough to be incorporated into cells easily and are not easy to make completely "pristine". The Rice group which is highly respectible found that they can kill skin cells (nanotechweb.org/articles/news/3/9/16) |
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Thu May 25, 2006 7:12 am |
sharky, so C60 is definetly a nanoparticle to avoid! I was wondering about that when I was looking at the Zelens website.
Should we be avoiding all fullerenes in skincare or just the C60 fullerene? |
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Thu May 25, 2006 2:38 pm |
I would avoid all fullerines and anything smaller than 20nm in a topical product.
There is likely a size effect.
Smalley the discoverer of C60 died of leukemia (he had it for 7 years). I was told that his labs had loose Fullerines and SWNT without serious protection and I would not be surprised if his illness was related to this. These are new materials they're interaction with cells is not well characterized. |
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Fri May 26, 2006 1:53 am |
Hi Sharky,
that's a bit my fear : are those things here we put on our face safe ? is their (long time) effect examined in details ? in a very superficial way I have some contact with nutritional science and read recommendations for L-carnithin and alpha-lipoic acid - but again, is it safe ? I've probably seen too many horror-movies but still I'm afraid to take or "smear" anythings when I don't know the consequencies in some 10 (or more) years . . .
you're a bit an "insider" - what's your opinion ?
lin |
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Fri May 26, 2006 7:44 am |
sharky thanks for your reply. Your knowledge in this area is greatly appreciated. I am just starting to put all of this nanotechnology stuff into some kind of perspective and your comments here and on my nanotechnology post have been very helpful with this.
The Friends of the Earth Report that I referenced in my nanotech post has a quote from one of the scientists (Curl) who won the Nobel prize for the fullerene discovery, where he states that he would avoid using cosmetics containing fullerenes because the risks are not well understood at this time. In light of this and what sharky said about Smalley (who also won the Nobel prize), it is sort of ironic that Zelens is using the Nobel prize angle to market their skin creams.
Now for a stupid question. What does SWNT stand for? I cannot find it in the list of frequently used acronyms and have never heard it before. |
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Skincarebuff
New Member
 
Joined: 13 Jun 2006
Posts: 3
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Tue Jun 13, 2006 5:16 am |
Hi,
My first post - I just wanted to comment since I know a little about fullerenes, and thought it may be helpful. SWNT's are single-walled nanotubes, which are a carbon material related to fullerenes, but pretty different. They are long tubes of carbon, whereas C60 is a sphere of pure carbon.
As for C60 and benefits or concerns, I don't think there is much in the scientific literature that causes concerns. There has been medical research for years on them, and medical reserchers typically cite the lack of any toxic effects. The Rice work mentioned before was on nanoparticles of C60 (called Nano-C60), which is quite different from what is in Zelens (I have no relation to Zelens, and don't know how good the product is).
C60 is not a nanoparticle itself, but a molecule, about the same size as a large vitamin molecule like B-carotene. Some people (e.g., the Rice people) have made nanoparticles of C60, like nanoparticles can be made of titania, silica, etc., and they found some toxic results in fish, but, that work was recently shown to be flawed by their use of tetrahydrafuran to make the Nano-C60. A Japanese group duplicated the Rice work, without tetrahydrafuran, and duplicated the tox. tests, and found no adverse toxicity at all.
C60 itself has been studied by many groups for pharmaceutical applications, in various forms, and Merck licensed one molecule for study in neurology as an antioxidant.
Mitsubishi also has a company, called Vitamin C60 Bioresearch, and they sell a product in Japan for cosmetics based on C60. This is what is in Dr. Brandt I think, since Brandt says they get the material from Japan. Mitsubishi also has established a large amount of safety data on C60, and everything they found was okay.
So, in my experience, there isn't much to be scared about with C60. Researchers in labs using it make no precaution in terms of protecting their skin, etc., even though at first they treated it with caution since they didn't know anything about it yet. Then, studies were done showing that for example on mouse skin, it was safe, and everyone working with it now accepts it as safe as charcoal.
Smalley in fact did not work on C60 in the last 10 years or so of his life, he was working on SWNT's, so it is very unlikely that there is any correlation with his illness and C60. In fact, even when he discovered it and in the early years of his work with it, he would not have been exposed to much, since he is a physicist, and definitely would not have been in the lab with it (professors don't work in the lab, their grad. students do!) Many thousands of researchers have worked with C60 since it was discovered, and there is no evidence of anyone having any adverse health effects.
All of that being said, I don't know if Zelens is effective or not. C60 has been shown scientically to be just about the best radical scavenger (antioxidant) known to man, but whether Zelens is effective or not would depend on how much C60 is in it. C60 looks purple when it is in solution, and so one would think that the cream should be purple.
P.S. Russian researchers have claimed to use C60 to heal wounds in their skin, etc. for years, and a lot of scientists are very excited about the antioxidant benefits in drugs. C-Sixty Inc. is also working on drugs based on C60. So, I can say that Zelens is not all hype. The inventor is after all an Oxford professor, and there are some very serious scientific backing for his claims and also on the safety. |
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Tue Jun 13, 2006 8:10 am |
Yeah! Another nanotechnology buff. Skincarebuff welcome to the forum!! Interesting post.... Let me see if I am understanding this. I think what you are saying is the following.
The C60 used in the Zelens cream is not a nanoparticle C60 and there are no safety concerns surrounding the non-nano C60. Even concerning nanoparticle C60 the studies that have shown toxicity were flawed. C60 is a powerful antioxidant that could have skincare benefits and no safety concerns when used in skincare products.
Is my understanding of what you said correct? If not what am I missing? I thought I was beginning to understand this fullerene thing and then you go and present conflicting evidence!! Actually I appreciate your post and always like to hear different evidence, opinions, etc. It gives my mind something to ponder. |
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Skincarebuff
New Member
Joined: 13 Jun 2006
Posts: 3
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Wed Jun 21, 2006 4:17 am |
TheresaL,
Yes, basically I agree with the way you summarized my position. I think it is hard to say for anything that there are "no" safety concerns, but I believe there are no more for C60 than anything else you see in the ingredients list of common cosmetics, and less concern than for many (BHT for example).
Remember that it has been about 15 years since C60 first began to be experimented with in labs, and a huge number of researchers have used it and published on it. In the years '91, '92, and '93, it was the most published on single subject in science.
Maybe the biggest convincing factor for me is that Mitsubishi Corp., which owns Vitamin C60 Bioresearch, worked with it particularly for cosmetics for about 4 years or so and preformed a large battery of safety tests, and they now sell a formulation to 30 or 40 skincare clinics in Japan. The Japanese are notoriously careful on safety issues. I know someone who helped introduce Coenzyme Q10 from Kaneka Corp. into the US, and they were exceedingly careful, and even didn't rely on the other data that existed.
The only thing that I know of that would be an issue with certain types of C60 is that it can be a photosensitizer in laboratory conditions. Many compounds are like this, especially fragrances in perfumes, Vitamin E with some people, and the Vitamin A derivatives (retinoids) with most people. However, I suspect that the products now on the market use a small enough amount so that is not a problem, or have checked it. That would be a standard safety test for all cosmetics, and in the EU, if it were not approved by a qualified toxicologist, it couldn't be legally sold.
The reason that I am aware of these issues is that as a scientist who previously worked with C60, when I saw the Rice work and the general scare tactics used to obtain funding, by lumping C60 into the nanoparticle category, making no real distinction on the "Nano-C60", not citing other safety data, etc., it made a big wave in the fullerene community. Most all of the C60 scientists were outraged, and now the articles are beginning to be published showing the flaws in that work. I have a recent one published in a respected journal if you would like to have it.
It is just a shame when scientists try to create a publicity bonanza through scare tactics based on poor science and inaccurate information. The simple reason is that by getting into the media, right or wrong, and making a big challenge, gives them the name and the citations needed to obtain more funding. That is what it is about, but I am confident that the truth will prevail. But, as is typical, the truth will come out as it is now, quietly in scientific journals. |
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Wed Jun 21, 2006 7:22 am |
Thanks Skincarebuff! Good point about "no" safety concerns. I imagine I should have phrased my summary of your position differently. I have looked into this some more since reading your first post and it does seem that there is a lot of information out there. As a layperson it is not always easy to seperate the good stuff from the scare tactics. I guess I have in my mind the whole concept of scientists being noble and always in search of the truth. It helps to be reminded that there are practical issues that scientists have to deal with like funding that may lead to some less than desirable results.
I appreciate you discussing this with me and have sent you a PM on this. |
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Wed Jun 28, 2006 1:36 pm |
| SKincarebuff, would you use the cream yourself? (or would you pass). tia. |
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Wed Jun 28, 2006 2:36 pm |
| Skincarebuff thanks for the terrific background on C60. I'm inspired to research this more. Glad you're on this forum. |
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Skincarebuff
New Member
Joined: 13 Jun 2006
Posts: 3
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Tue Jul 11, 2006 10:57 am |
Hi,
Oh yes, no problem, I would use it without any concern in regards to the fact that it contains C60. As far as I am concerned, C60 is safe. However, I don't know about the other things in the Zelens! It has a huge mix of all different antioxidant and other compounds. Plus, the price is pretty high... It seems to me to be a run of the mill kitchen sink type formulation.
P.S. Theresa, I have a response started to your private message, and I will send it soon... |
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Wed Jul 12, 2006 10:52 am |
After doing some research on this and with some help from Skincarebuff I no longer feel that there are any real safety issues with the C60 fullernes that are in the Zelen's product. From a safety standpoint I would feel comfortable using it but I still stand by my original post where I said I would need to see further evidence of the product's effectiveness and a complete ingredient list before I would spend what they are asking for it!
I actually am quite impressed with the antioxidant benefits offered by the fullernes and because of this I did look into the Dr. Brandt Lineless cream (at $100 USD a lot more reasonable. When did I start considering $100 for a face cream resonable?  ) which also has C60 fullerenes and would have bought it but I don't think that it is appropriate for my skintype. |
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anders
New Member
Joined: 24 Nov 2007
Posts: 1
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Sat Nov 24, 2007 4:12 pm |
I think it is a big problem that they has tested C60 or whatever on animals!
Buy products that has not been tested on animals.
Animals should not been tortured for the sake of beauty! We are getting old no matter what!
Those people that think it is OK make me sick!
Those people that says it is necessary are full of crap.. pardon me saying so.
Even cleaning product are been tested on animals.
Have stupid is that. Of course it is not good to get bleach in you eyes. No need to test that on animals..
I just say think with the head and not the with the ass.
Thank you all  |
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Wed Feb 20, 2008 10:24 pm |
| heard--i <3 animals!! |
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Sat Jun 14, 2008 12:14 am |
| Is the new Zelens line the same products as mentioned initially in this thread as I can't see any fullerenes in this new line. |
_________________
Skin: Over 60, ex combination now sensitive, Cellcosmet |
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Sat Jun 14, 2008 3:53 am |
Bushy I think that it's a new formula and they've taken the fullerenes out now...i'm sure i've read that somewhere. I managed to get some samples of the new eye cream, day face cream and night cream.
Out of them all I really enjoyed using the eye cream, it felt a little like the Dermalogica Multivitamin Power Firm for Eyes % Lips...so didn't leave a greasy finish but that's probably because Dimethicone is listed as the second ingrediant. |
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Sat Jun 14, 2008 1:17 pm |
The Zelen's eye cream was a huge disppointment for me: it made the lines around my eyes really bad, didn't moisturize enough. I have no dark circles and only minor puffiness, so I can't say anything about that.
Bushy, originally Zelen had two different eye creams : one with the fullerens and one without. |
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Sat Jul 05, 2008 2:47 am |
| I recently obtained some samples from this line including the serum, day cream, night cream and eye cream. The samples lasted just over a week and I loved the line but it is just a bit pricey. |
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Skin: Over 60, ex combination now sensitive, Cellcosmet |
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Joobug
New Member
Joined: 12 Jan 2009
Posts: 1
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Mon Jan 12, 2009 4:06 pm |
Hello
I have the Zelens eye cream, night repair cream and radical defence serum. Fortunately, I didn't have to purchase any of these as they were gifts! I got a free sample of the eye cream about two years ago from space nk. What I will say about the products is that they are certainly expensive (so I'll have to keep relying on getting re-stocked at Xmas and birthdays) and the packaging is ridiculous, but oh god it's good! The radical serum is amazing. Loads of people have told me how my skin is glowing recently (including my boyfriend!) and I put it all down to the serum. In a word - marvellous! |
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Mon Jan 12, 2009 8:46 pm |
| Joobug. Do you use all of their products or are you mixing them with other brands. Also if you don't mind what is your skin type. Thanks. Harriet. |
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