american attitudes with makeup
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Sat May 27, 2006 10:24 pm

Hello,

I was wondering what everyone thinks about the recent article in the new york times about french women's attitude towards makeup vs. american women's--
it says that we only like a glow and our natural face to shine through, while american women love to cover their faces with pounds and pounds of makeup...

I don't think this is true, and besides, I really do not understand this french vs. american. It really should be french and vs. the rest of the world.

It is true, we really only enjoy a hint of color here and there, and of course, a really good procedure now and then...
But most women in other cultures enjoy the application of a lot of makeup... I actually find it very artistic and I find our culture somewhat spartan. The polish are very excellent at makeup, and they wear a lot of it, for example!

Q.

free skin care · Sun May 28, 2006 5:30 am

I guess you cannot generalize nowadays.
In France (my HB comes from Lyon) I've always had the feeling that foundation, make-up is quite important for them, however they use it in a very natural way. Few times I got professional make up from a visagist in France - they worked one hour on me, put on a lot but finally I looked completely natural, like having my own natural beauty, which unfortunately wasn't . . . . I've tried to repeat it at home, I've never managed . . .
(BTW, some of my colleagues in our Polish subsidiary have always a lot of make-up on, looking absolutely ridiculously artificial . . .)

free skin care · Sun May 28, 2006 5:48 am

Hello Quivers Smile

I would like to know which New York Times edition the article was in and who the author was?

If possible - could you post a link if the article is in the online edition of the new york times?

thanks Very Happy

free skin care · Sun May 28, 2006 5:49 am

Hello Quivers Smile

I would like to know which New York Times edition the article was in and who the author was?

If possible - could you post a link if the article is in the online edition of the new york times?

thanks Very Happy

free skin care · Sun May 28, 2006 6:34 am

Bump. I'd be interested in reading this article as well!

Sun May 28, 2006 8:48 am

Hello,
In response, I did find the article for your reference!
It is in the Nytimes website.
But, I cannot post it because of the rules here. If you do a search for "No Makeup, s'il vous plait" it should come up!

Q.

free skin care · Sun May 28, 2006 9:51 am

Thanks Quivers, found and read the article. i think the article is perpetuating the chic french woman vs the overly made up trying to hard to be chic american woman.

When i've been in paris I've noticed that the makeup victim exists there as well - she is in fact to be found in every country i've been to.

ironically 2 french makeup artists in the article make a very good living off of makeup mavens all over the world and keep expanding the choices of products in their lines Confused

- so listening to LM's opinion on overly made up americans is offensive. She is virtually unknown in France -so that means her customer base is american and she is alienating them.

I wear byTerry and love her line and noticed that she is about COLOR that compliments your complexion and in her boutiques has very well trained visagistes to guide you in your choices - excellent service.

The only ideal woman is the one you see in the mirror - if you take care her inside and out - she will stay fabulous and amazing - regardless of her passport Very Happy

free skin care · Sun May 28, 2006 5:20 pm

I just went to Nytimes.com and did a search, copied and pasted exactly what you typed but nothing came up Sad

If there are any full members that found this link could you post it?

free skin care · Sun May 28, 2006 5:29 pm

I found it. Its "Sans Makeup, S'il Vous Plaît"
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/25/fashion/thursdaystyles/25skin.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

What a great article! I couldn't agree with this more. I hardly wear makeup (although I do love it and wear it on occasions) and am a firm believer that great skin is all you need on your face. Love this article. Thanks for sharing quivers!

free skin care · Sun May 28, 2006 10:37 pm

part of me agrees with this article and part does not. I do think some american people need to learn how to apply makeup..but i do think when applied correctly there is nothing wrong with makeup. To many people it would look as though I wear too much makeup (Dark eyeshadow, liquid liner, mascara), but i prefer a unique look to myself and have been told I pull it off well. I have learned not to wear lipstick as i look utterly tacky and overdone. Skin is very important overall, and that is where i do agree with the article. I do think some people need makeup though, because not everyone was born with the face of a natural beauty. That, and i don't enjoy looking like im 13 because without eyeliner im too naked looking..ha

free skin care · Mon May 29, 2006 4:12 am

I think this is a stereotype. I've lived in Sweden, America and Australia and spent considerable time in other countries and I think you will find natural and made up in any part of the world. I've seen very natural Americans and very made up Swedes. And vice versa. With regards to the US I also think this depends on where in the US you live. I noticed women in the south wearing considerably more makeup than women in CA. But then I also have seen heavy handed makeup here in Sweden, England and yes France. I don't think that French women per se have the hold on "natural". If I were to make a generalisation I would say that women from former Eastern European countries wear the most but this is of course just a generalisation and there are exceptions to that.

free skin care · Mon May 29, 2006 5:55 am

I agree with Anna in Sweden.
"To look natural" or " to look made up" has nothing to do with being natural or not.
To me, it's just a personal choice and most of the times my daily choice.
I'm confident enough to go bare and daring enough to be glamorous. It usually depends on the occasion and my mood.
I take good care of my skin so that I don't have to spend too much time to perfect it.
And I also enjoy being girly with all the lip glosses and blushes and eye shadows and false lashes.
It's not how much makeup or what kind of makeup you wear, it's how you wear it.
I think if I love myself enough no matter what I wear, my friends and family will love me just the same, and that all matters.
I see beautiful people, female and male, made-up or not, everywhere I've been to, Europe or America or Asia or Africa.
I never judge anyone regarding what kind of makeup they have, regarding of anything.
Thank you, quivers, for starting a great post.

free skin care · Mon May 29, 2006 9:13 am

this is such an interesting thread and article. Living in Japan, I would say DEFINATELY the Japanese fall into the "made up" in general. Seriously, you could walk past a long-time friend on the street and not recognize them if they have no face on. Laughing

But at the same time, I think some people look fabulous with full foundation (notably) and horrid without it, whilst others look horrid in it and much better without it. (I fall into the latter, my sister-in-law the former).

Personally, I prefer to work hard so that my face can go bare (other than mascara, brow and lippy) during the day and for an evening out or a special occasion, I drag out the foundation and eyeshadow (and forcedly blush)

free skin care · Mon May 29, 2006 9:34 am

Saw this somewhere without a listed author but it is so true!

"We women fall in love with certain cosmetics the way we fall in love with certain men; it's often a mysterious and inexplicable thing."

free skin care · Mon May 29, 2006 3:49 pm

I constantly hear French women bashing American women. Whether it's that American women are fat and the French are thin, or Americans wear more make-up etc.
Most makeup lines are from France like Chanel and Lancome. And us North American women are one of the biggest buyers of these French make-up companies.

free skin care · Mon May 29, 2006 4:13 pm

I just had to weigh in here.

The comment that
"great skin is all you need on your face"
is all very well and good if you have the great good fortune to have the right genes giving you "great skin".

Some of us were not quite that lucky ... Crying or Very sad

and personally I find the statement arrogant.

I do my best to cover my flaws and still look as natural as possible. I don't think the final effect is "made up" ...

I think it's great if you have marvellous skin ... and can wear it out there ... but please ... don't tar those of us with noticeable flaws as being "overly made up".

ALL of us on EDS take good care of our skin ... but some skin problems defy "good care"!

If you have wonderful skin, great! How lucky for you ... and I hope it remains "perfect" ... for your sake!

If you're French and you think that North American women wear too much makeup ... that's only one perspective. I personally don't think you can make such overt generalizations ...

I've been around way too long to think that any generalization applies to any group of people!

Just my two cents!

Mary

free skin care · Mon May 29, 2006 4:53 pm

but Mary, have you ever seen ANYONE with perfect skin (sans all make-up) who is over the age of 10?

I may go sans-foundation but what is on show sure aint perfect, but I know that I am luckier than a lot of people.

But if I wear foundation, somehow pores and lines that are not openly visible on my face are miraculously magnified by 100 and I end up feeling like an old hag. Perhaps if I spent half an hour applying pore putties and concealers etc I could achieve the "perfect" look, but then I end up with a face too "heavy" (and I dont mean by made up) and I cannot stand the feel of much make-up on my face. Maybe if I lived in a cooler climate my face would be happier.. Laughing

free skin care · Mon May 29, 2006 5:03 pm

I think that natural is subjective. Some of the most "natural" looking women can have on more products than a woman who looks made up. It depends on the application and what the intent is. A friend of mine here works for the cosmetic company Face Stockholm as a makeup artist and she says that many women will request an obvious made up Christina Aguilera look while others will say that they want to look like they are completely au naturell. What is interesting is that she says that most often that "natural" glow/look requires MORE makeup than those that want a more made up look.

Also in regards to French women most of them are more olive in complexion than people here in Sweden which are very fair. Most olive skinned women don't require as much concealer as women with light skin. What looks good on an olive toned person would not look good on me and vice versa. Does that make me less natural? No. As long as makeup is applied with a steady hand and blends well, who really cares how much makeup is applied? I can't believe that this was a "newsworthy" article in a paper and in particular the NY Times! It must have been a slow newsday.

free skin care · Mon May 29, 2006 6:31 pm

Hi TigerTim,

Actually, no I haven't seen anyone with a flawless complexion ... and one responder ... the owner of my "quote" in my response ... seems to indicate that.

Now I have learned from sad experience that if I don't wear something on my skin, it reacts to all sorts of things in the air ... pollen, polution, whatever. I need the protection that a barrier like foundation gives me.

I use mineral foundation because it provides good coverage, a great barrier and a natural look.

I use a mineral primer of sorts prior to putting on the mineral foundation ... and the primer helps to minimize the pores and lines that would appear normally, without foundation.

I found, with mineral makeup at least, that if it settles in my lines and pores ... I have applied too much. It took me quite a while before I was able to apply just the right amount so that it didn't settle in my lines and pores and make me look "cakey".

I don't wear eye makeup on a day-to-day basis ... particularly at this time of year ... because of my allergies. [My eyes get really bugged ... and the idea of putting on eye makeup really doesn't seem like a good idea.] I almost never wear lipstick ... although I do use a lip balm.

So ... basically, I wear a light layer of my primer ... a light layer of my foundation [building up on those areas that need to be hidden using a small taklon brush] ... then a sweep of bronzer ... that's it.

The look is, generally, very natural ... and yet I'm protecting my skin from the elements at the same time.

My face broke out terribly in that interim between hating what "ordinary" foundations would do ... and discovering MMU. Now my face hardly breaks out at all ... and when it does, I can conceal it.

Just my thoughts ...

Mary

free skin care · Mon May 29, 2006 7:14 pm

Mary - What primer do you use before mineral makeup? I like mineral makeup but have not been able to make it not settle in my pores and make my pores look 100X larger. Thanks.

free skin care · Mon May 29, 2006 8:20 pm

I agree that all you need is great skin. But some people cannot have great skin no matter what they do, it's out of their control.

There was this organic site that was talking about the dangers of all cosmetics, including mineral makeup and the studies on synthetic iron oxides etc. Talking very negative about all makeup, how it's polluting her world and only reason anyone uses it is pure vanity and selfishness. Said to just take care of your skin instead and of your health. Which I agree with. But I'm sorry I cannot be happy without my concealer. I will never even have decent looking skin, and not wanting to go around with dark circles under my eyes and other blemishes all the time, what's wrong with that? I don't know, I'm just tired of people with great skin who choose not to wear any makeup judging anyone who does as vain or giving into social pressures. I've seen a lot of women who don't need to wear makeup but they do anyways just to give themselves different looks and enhance their beauty, not to coverup. I am envious of course! Laughing

Sorry, rambling. But yeah I only wear as much as I need to. Concealer, eyeliner and lip balm and I'm happy. I never spend more then 5-10 min. on hair AND makeup. I think that article is way over-generalizing. I mean looking at the media and celebrities and over-airbrushed photos etc. yeah it often looks like they are wearing a lot of makeup. But I don't personally know any women in real life who wear much makeup at all. Even the over made up celebrities usually don't wear much or any in their day to day life.

I really like the made-up look done right by professional makeup artists, with lots of makeup but very natural and neutral shades. I just have no skills at that, esp. eye makeup. Maybe I don't use enough products and tools to do it. It can be fun to look like a flawless barbie doll sometimes. Smile

Over made-up women though look like drag queens to me. Tyra Banks often does.
http://www.askmen.com/specials/2005_top_99/celebs/34_tyra_banks.jpg

"In its most extreme, America is seen as a youth-obsessed, throwaway, quick-fix culture where women are more likely to look artificially young and totally "done."

In the culture and media I totally agree. But that doesn't represent the average person.

free skin care · Mon May 29, 2006 8:54 pm

see, i'm a big fan of dramatic looks. seeing that picture of tyra banks to me is not giving me the idea she looks like a dragqueen, but moreso she knows how to wear a lot of makeup and look unique and beautiful. I think of the women in the 1940's and their glamour and that is what I personally aim for. I really think not everyone looks good in tons of makeup, but if you can look absolutely adorable and feminine and make people go "wow", then you probably would be stunning without all the makeup anyways. Personally, ive had many compliments on my looks with lots of makeup and without. My skin in my opinion is not all that great, but i think features are also what carries a person and if you have a strong approach. This article is just trying to pin point americans like we are the only ones decked in cosmetics...think of the ancient eqyptians or the little jrock girls in japan...they wore/wear lots of makeup to embrace their beauty and there is no shame in that at all to me.

free skin care · Mon May 29, 2006 9:08 pm

I love to wear make-up when I go for a night out. It just makes me feel prettier and hide some of my flaws like blemishes and dark circles under the eyes. I feel 10 times more beautiful and confident with some makeup on.

free skin care · Tue May 30, 2006 12:41 am

arrrrrrrgghhhhhhhhhh!!!

sooo many things have been said that i agree with, sooo many things have been said that i don't agree with.... but mostly, i think, that article is just crap.

most people would love to have perfect skin, would love to not have to wear makeup, regardless of where they're from. guess what??? not everybody's that lucky!

the french are absolutely NO different from americans in that way. (Anna_in_Sweden makes a very good point about the average complexion here, BTW. if i relied on MU bases that i could get here, i'd be running around looking like a tranny -- the lightest are two or three shades too dark. olive complexions *do* hide a lot more imperfections.)

regardless, i've been living and people watching in paris for months and i've seen almost every look in the book: au natural to very obvious makeup with black liner and bright red lips. in fact, lippies seem to be the biggest difference -- whereas americans tend to love gloss, more french women will go for the matte lip look.

but no makeup in general??? give me a break! the sephoras are just as packed as in the states, if not more so. and i'm not talking about skincare here, i'm talking about makeup. hell, i've even seen a lot of men getting done up to get their natural looks enhanced (Guerlain bronzers seem to be a favourite). makeup can protect the face from all the pollution, etc., and believe you me, that's needed here. no makeup, my a--.

the difference here is that i think the women spend MORE time and care on their makeup than the average american. i very rarely see BAD makeup jobs. and, as someone stated, that au natural look can take a hell of a lot more time. french women take the time to assess what they're going to wear and then apply makeup accordingly. you do not see lipstick clashing with a scarf, for example. (except on me, of course, but then i'm one of those uncouth americans that hasn't amassed a thousand scarves yet.) they see makeup as an accessory rather than a mask and therein lies the difference.

a gorgeous french woman who's the girlfriend of my BF's best friend showed up to a show heavily made up and i thought she looked divine -- it went perfect with her semi-sheer top under a suit. very sexy, very obvious. i was commenting on how great she looked and that i'd have to get pointers from her and my boyfriend said don't you dare. he likes the natural look. unfortunately, i have pale skin and more than my share of spots so i have to slave to get my makeup just so everyday so it looks like i'm barely wearing any. without blush, i'd look like the walking dead, so there you go. then there's mascara, and the all important lipstick -- all looking very natural. and that might be just to go to the market. and i'm no different than the thousands of french women here -- they do the same. trust me, if i walked out of the house sans makeup, they'd be absolutely appalled!

the article is a load of bollocks and just perpetuates the myth of american inferiority.... byTerry founder is just probably pissed we're not as willing to fork over the dough to buy her extraordinarily expensive line of MU that means buying various layers to contour and highlight the face just so to get the natural look. or perhaps it's because she's just starting to launch her own skincare line and trying to get as many gullible people as she can....

what makes me so angry is that all these articles make americans hate the french and think they hate us and it isn't true, apart from a few of these witches trying to peddle their wares. women are women everywhere -- nationality be damned.... okay, end rant.

everybody's beautiful!

free skin care · Tue May 30, 2006 4:45 am

Hi tidieu,

The "primer" I wear I make up myself. It combines about 1 part genuine crushed pearl, 3 parts genuine silk powder, a pinch of salicylic acid powder ... and sometimes 1 part corn starch.

I don't know if the SA powder adds anything beneficial to the mix, but I added it on the off chance that it would benefit my skin! Laughing

I apply this in a thin layer ... although I will use my large taklon brush to "large pore" areas on either side of my nose. The taklon brush picks up more of the "primer" than the fiber optic brush that I use for the rest of my face.

I add a bit of corn starch on really hot days when my T-zone might be tempted to become a little oily.

The trickiest part of MMU is realizing that you really need a whole lot less foundation than you think you do. Initially, I would tap about half of what I thought I needed into a swirly bowl ... but I discovered that even that was too much. Laughing

Basically, I probably use less than 1/4 of what I think I need. I use my smaller taklon brush to build layers of the foundation on those problem areas ... and keep that very localized. Initially it will look odd ... but give it a few minutes and it will have blended in with the rest.

This works for me ... where other primers, like Smashbox didn't work well for me at all.

I've now managed to get the application of MMU down to a "fine science" ... and it only takes a couple of minutes for me to go from primer to finishing.

HTH

Mary

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