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Caspers Mum
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Joined: 02 Nov 2002
Posts: 1694
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Fri Jul 28, 2006 12:15 am  |
Though I realize that the case has likely only received media coverage within North America, some of you may know of the case, trial, and verdict.
http://crime.about.com/od/current/p/andreayates.htm
I'll keep my opinion(s) short & succinct: I am happy with the verdict, and relieved that she was found not guilty (for reason of insanity).
However, I have to question her now remarried, ex-husband's declaration of, "She was insane!"
???? 
Uh, if he knew she was mentally/psychologically struggling, and demonstrating obvious suicidal tendancies ... why was he leaving his children alone with her, and impregnating her over & over again?
This, I don't understand, though I think it was honorable for him to support her through her trial. The least that he could do. `Guy remarried recently: in the same church of his first marriage, same preacher - whom conducted his first marriage & the funeral(s) of the five children.
A very sad, tragic story. She was not sentenced to a prison or the death penalty. She will be in a max. security psych. institute - far more leniant than any U.S. prison, with professional HELP & medical supervision. She doesn't deserve to be incarcerated in a prison, nor sentenced to death.
I wonder if she will wish that she had been executed, if/as her mental health improves? |
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Fri Jul 28, 2006 4:56 am |
| I agree Casper's Mum. This is a tragic story that I have followed through out the years. She is obviously insane to do this to her children. Her husband knew that she was not heathly (mentally), so was seeing doctors for her "condition", why would her husband continue to give her children. At some point you have to stop and say, "this is too much for you". And he knew that she was not mentally stable...but left them alone. I second everything you said!. It is very tragic and sad, she was "guity" of course, but she could not be responsible for her actions. When are we going to stand up and make something happen with people like this? The amount of harmful behavior to children these days (in all respects) are alarming. I am very happy that John Walsh (America's Most Watned host), got his bill passed by Bush yesterday on the anniversary (25th) of his son's death Adam Walsh. It will protect and speak for children everywhere. We all need to protect our children. (sorry for the rant), it just makes me so sad what people do to children. I have a 12 year old who I try to protect with my life and look over him daily! Could never imagine losing him. (thanks for listening) |
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Fri Jul 28, 2006 8:46 am |
I've never heard about the story, i guess it wasn't made public here in Europe, or at least not here in Austria.
Those poor children and that poor woman were left completely alone : where were their families (inlaws, siblings, etc.) they definitely knew about her problems ? the preacher knew the situation for sure as well... what about that psychiatrist Saeed ? he's pretty much to be blamed as well ! and of course, her ex-husband, who knew that she cannot take the Haldol while pregnant . . . (just to mention that minor issue) - he's very much a "complice" for me ! |
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Fri Jul 28, 2006 9:17 am |
| I agree she is insane, I'm mean you'd have to be looney to do something like that. However, I also disagree with the fact that her confinement to the mental institution are only until she is "no longer a threat to society". For the crime she committed I feel that she should be put away in the mental institution for life. |
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Fri Jul 28, 2006 11:05 am |
Living in Houston (the city this happened in), all I can say, is this is such a hard thing to wrap ones head around. And yes I agree Rusty (her ex hubby) needs some serious counseling of his own, as well as the woman who agreed to marry this man  . I truely hope she never is released to have more babies, because she can be and its alot easier than most think for that to happen.
As far as crazy and responsibility, heres what I keep pondering (without getting to a resolution)..if one goes nuts, stops taking their meds and goes and shoots 5 people, we crucify that person, we show no mercy, no one says well...he just needs help.
But she did same only they were her own kids, she stopped taking her meds and spent a good 45 mins to an hour doing this. So my little brain is really trying hard to see the difference.
so does it come down to as long as society at large is not in danger we can forgive the crazy act, since only the immediate family of the crazy person is in harms way? Just seems like a huge double standard to me. Which is right which is wrong is beyond me to decifer, I just think we should treat crazy the same, however that same is. |
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Fri Jul 28, 2006 11:27 am |
She's sick, she has an awful, incurable illness (this is not "just" serious depression but must be schizophrenia and paranoia, etc., etc.). It wasn't her deliberate decision not to take the medication anymore - because she just wasn't able to make any deliberate decisions anymore - she didn't know what's wrong or bad or even normal ! And those sane people around her should have seen it - and specially the psychiatrist & her HB!
I don't want to defend her - 5 children died of an awful death, i just try to explain the difference between serious psychic illness and "going nuts" (killing from affect). |
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Fri Jul 28, 2006 11:36 am |
Ok I get your point but the the earlier version I told is exactly the same, when one stops their meds they think they don't need them, they can't reason it out either, its the SAME illness is my point (they dont ever stops meds cause oh hell why not, they truely think they dont need them anymore).
But we tend to just feel sry for her but not the guy that goes and randomly kills due to the exact same problem. You just made my point as well, we judge them so differently (myself included) and I just wonder why that is. |
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Fri Jul 28, 2006 12:06 pm |
Also just so everyones not shocked if and when this happens, but this trial was only for 3 of the children (maybe 4 can't quiet recall) but there is a minimum of one left maybe two they can still prosecute her for. In Texas if you can reason good bad right wrong your considered not crazy in the eyes of the law, ie. if you know ur act is wrong. What she did right after killing the children was to call the police and say "I've done something bad and you need to come." Hince the States determination she knew it was wrong.
Not listing all this to start any argument on right and wrong and the ins and outs of mental illness, just to state don't be shocked if shes rebrought up on the remaining charges. |
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Fri Jul 28, 2006 12:23 pm |
No, I don't judge them differently. I judge everybody the same if they're seriously psychically ill (not just a minor and ocassional bad mood . . .).
I got a close friend who was fighting with schizophrenia, and he lost the battle. it was terrific, terrific, terrific ... he was a talented, gentle and charming young man and ended up as an uncontrollable animal (no, animal is not the right word either...) |
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Fri Jul 28, 2006 12:27 pm |
| lin23 wrote: |
No, I don't judge them differently. I judge everybody the same if they're seriously psychically ill (not just a minor and ocassional bad mood . . .).
I got a close friend who was fighting with schizophrenia, and he lost the battle. it was terrific, terrific, terrific ... he was a talented, gentle and charming young man and ended up as an uncontrollable animal (no, animal is not the right word either...) |
I too have been very close to this illness and its beyond tragic I agree. |
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Fri Jul 28, 2006 4:03 pm |
This story is just heart breaking.
I always thought her husband was evil. |
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Fri Jul 28, 2006 8:25 pm |
| donnababe wrote: |
This story is just heart breaking.
I always thought her husband was evil. |
Words cannot express the disdain I have for that man. |
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Fri Jul 28, 2006 10:43 pm |
I agree and disagree with some of the postings here. Yes she was insane when she killed her children. She snapped. She had a long history of mental illness and depression so for that I am very glad with the verdict. I was visiting in America when I first learned of this case. At first I thought that she was a horrible monster but then I found out more about her and I realised that she isn't totally to blame. Her husband played a large part in the final outcome.
On the other hand he cannot "impregnate" her without her knowledge or agreement. The fact that they were supposedly very religious did not help. They probably held the belief that the more children, the better. This is a major problem with religion in my opinion. I am not opposed to religion what I am opposed to is a family already in a desperate situation (whether it be a bad marriage, abuse, poverty, mentally unstable etc...) holding onto the belief that having more kids will make their lives better. This happens all over the world mainly dictated by the religion of the people and no one is better off because of it. It seems that the only ones who suffer because of this are women and children. |
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Fri Jul 28, 2006 11:01 pm |
Didn't he stick by her during her first trial? But then he turned after she was convicted and sentenced?
I can't remember...  |
_________________
32, Fair Skin, combo/break-out prone. Simple routine of REN No. 1 Purity Cleansing Balm and Argan oil as a moisturizer; Clarisonic when needed. That's it! |
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Sat Jul 29, 2006 9:53 am |
It is so difficult to respond to this....I feel very bad for her. For the rest of her life, she'll know that her children died by her hands.  I have to agree with you...if her husband was the only "sane" person in that marriage...why did he continue to be so irresponsible? It's sad...her time isn't her own. She's lost out so much of her own life. And now he's married? I truley believe that he had some responsibility to what happened to his children.
I'm not sure how to respond to her mental state while the psychosis was going on and she was continuely getting pregnant. I do know that if a person is clinically depressed or psychotic. They are not in the place to make wise decisions. I'm wondering if she even felt something at that point. She was probably going with the flow. Whatever life brought her she took. |
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Sun Jul 30, 2006 9:26 pm |
There are a lot of extra details to this case that make it all the more tragic. I absolutely agree that her husband Rusty is partly responsible, as was her latest psychiatrist.
It's true, she had a history of going off her medication (as do most people battling such an extreme mental illness). And part of this was religious, since the medication interfered with pregnancy, and they didn't believe in birth control. But at this particular time, she was (supposedly) removed her from her medication by her latest therapist. It appears like she kept getting bounced from therapist to therapist (due to insurance), and her records were not well maintained. He didn't realize that she had two previous suicide attempts, a history of hallucinations, and numerous other problems that led all her previous therapists to put her on extremely high dosages and recommend shock therapy. But according to everyone who saw her, her desperate state was obvious. Rusty says the therapist told him to take her off the medication entirely, and to "never leave her alone." The therapist denies taking her off the meds, but the defense made a pretty damning case that he doctored his notes after the murders. Either way, it was apparent that she was in need of far more medical assistance, and did not receive it.
The religion plays a HUGE factor in everything. They weren't just a little religious. They followed the teachings of a very extreme, cult like preacher (whom Rusty had introduced Andrea to, so yet another strike against him). When they had 3 kids, Rusty sold all their possessions, donated the money, and moved the family into a schoolbus, under the advisement of this preacher. The preacher's wife regularly wrote Andrea letters telling her evil she was, and how her children were being led down the path to hell by her (this become a huge part of Andrea's delusions). Rusty finally moved the family back into a house around the time of the 5th child, after Andrea's family begged him to do so. Can you imagine living with 4 children in a freaking school bus, nevertheless doing so when you are battling depression and psychosis (which all of her psychiatrists diagnosed her as having)?! She home-schooled all 5 children as well.
Basically, what it comes down to was the husband supposedly misjudged how extreme her illness was. He thought she could be left alone for "a short time." But the problem is, he was told repeatedly that she could not. The psychiatrist is absolutely to blame for a terrible misdiagnosis and failing to prescribe proper medication, but he did tell Rusty not to leave her alone EVER. Family members testified that Rusty spoke just a few weeks before the murders about how he was going to start leaving her alone with the kids for an hour a day so she wouldn't get "dependent" on him and his mother. Her family told him (begged him) not to. It just sounds like he viewed this more as a weakness than a serious disease. I would be sympathetic to simply not understanding the severity of her illness, but this is just ridiculous. The house was a mess, her appearance was dreadful, you could tell she was ill. She had TWO previous suicide attempts, she herself begged him not to leave him alone with the kids, told him she couldn't handle it. His mother (who was typically with her but was running late) said Andrea was often "catatonic" during the day.
She was clearly not fit to take care of herself. The very thought of leaving someone like that in charge of FIVE children, young children at that, is simply abhorrent. |
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25 | US South | Fair | Very dry b/w brows, normal elsewhere skin | Forever in search of undereye bleach and pore eradictor! |
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Sun Jul 30, 2006 10:05 pm |
Im glad that this thread was started, I think that this is an issue that needs to be discussed. I agree with most everthing thats been said. I feel sorry for her and think she was depressed and overwhelmed, adding her mental illness to it was like icing on the cake. She had so many children so close together, never really having time to heal physically or emotionally. I think her husband is an important factor on the whole downward spiral of her life. Living in a bus, are you kidding me?
If someones SO shows signs of mental illness you get them help, and make sure they take their meds, not halfas*ed like he did. You make sure that they get the care that they need, and you do not intrust them to care for small children, and you certianly dont keep getting them pregnant!
Obviously the childeren are innocent in this tradgy, and my heart aches at the loss of unlived life. After the birth of my son and only child, I was in a very rocky time in my marriage, and I was depressed. Although I never considered killing my child, it was still the most trying time emotionally in my life...I felt near meltdown constantly. I cannot imagine going through that with 5 kids.
I feel sympathy for Andrea and hope that she gets the help that her husband neglected her of.
As far as I remember marriage vows are for better or worse, in sickness and in health. Not that Im saying you have to stay with the person who killed your children, but it does seem f-ed up that he didnt even wait till she was not on trial anymore to get remarried, and using the same church/pastor. Boy that sounds joyful.
Did anyone else notice his new wife? Hot young blonde...gimmie a break! |
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27~Texas~Oily~ fair~ breakout prone~ easily congested~Cysts caused by emotional stress~ Using Ayurvedic skin care and philosophy~ Dry brushing body and face~ On strict less is more routine~ We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars~ Oscar Wilde |
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Mon Jul 31, 2006 3:02 pm |
I'm sorry if you anyone takes this the wrong way, but if she had two suicide attemts before she should have tried again, maybe succeeded and her kids would still be here.
Insane of sane, there had to be a voice in there knowing she was doing something wrong, especially after atleast the three boys were dead and she had to run to get the other one. AND after she called the police. If she didn't think it was wrong she wouldn't have called them.
Thats just my opinion. When I first heard of this on the news I felt sick to my stomach, the same way I do when I hear about natural disasters when that mudslide happened on the school. I guess anything that has to do with children because they are soo vulnerable, and they haven't yet got to live a full life.
I just can't imagine what was going through their poor heads when their own mother was doing this to them.
p.s. I agree with tamgirl, locked atleast in the looney bin for life, and thats not even half as bad as what should get. |
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Tue Aug 01, 2006 2:45 am |
| razinkane wrote: |
| Insane of sane, there had to be a voice in there knowing she was doing something wrong, especially after atleast the three boys were dead and she had to run to get the other one. AND after she called the police. If she didn't think it was wrong she wouldn't have called them. |
But the point the defense made, which is why she is going to a mental institution instead of prison, is that she did know it was legally wrong. She just believed it was morally right. She believed the devil was talking to her. She believed that she was saving her children from hell. Because she was insane. Mental illness is not a choice. It's a sickness like any other. Her sickness took control of her mind.
What happened to those children is horrific. But she should not have been left alone with them. At all. And her husband knew that. Heck, she knew it. She told him she couldn't handle it.
If you have children, would you EVER leave them - FIVE of them - alone in the care of someone with extreme mental illness, who can barely speak all day, who can't take care of herself, who TELLS you she can't handle it? He forced her to be alone with those kids. And her mind snapped.
She needs treatment. He needs jail. |
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25 | US South | Fair | Very dry b/w brows, normal elsewhere skin | Forever in search of undereye bleach and pore eradictor! |
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Tue Aug 01, 2006 2:59 am |
I very much agree with what everyone said especially the previous poster. Not just the fact that the husband LEFT the kids in her care but I find it so ridiculous that WHEN she was getting BETTER he asked her to have another kid. And from reading the story it seemed like she was suffering from child birth depression (I forgot the exact name of the syndrome) and that seemed to be the trigger to her schizophrenia. It seemed like she got worse and worse each time she gave birth and the pattern should've been pretty obvious to not only her husband but from her own family as well. If she didn't have the last child I honestly believe that she could've functioned as a normal person and that this would not have happened at all.
The fault is not only to the husband alone but to all those around her who KNEW what was going on. I think her own family or her in-laws should've volunteered to take care of the kids if the husband did not have time or whatever his excuse was. It's a shame that she had to spiral down in the end especially when she was getting better at one point. |
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