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Mon Jan 22, 2007 2:14 am  |
| I want to prevent from UVA and UVB,I also think anti-oxident is the same important .But i don't know which can help me ?Could u have some good suggestion?Thanks! |
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shen bei |
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Tue Apr 10, 2007 12:24 am |
Hi everyone,
I am new here and would like to get your advice:
I've fair and dry skin and has been using DDF SPF30 sunblock after applying ALA or Vit C in the morning. i usually will wait for 5 mins for my ALA or 20 mins for Vit C before putting the sunblock. but dunno why, the sunblock seems to clot... and I dunno if the clotting has even taken away my ALA/ Vit C. so i would like to know - what is the best way to prevent clotting?
my pharmacist friend told me that it is best to use sunscreens with this active ingredient called "PARSOL 1789" which suppose not only to fence off UV, but also to break down any UV that gets into your skin(?!) is it true??
are there other alternatives besides DDF? which is the BEST sunscreen to use?
Many thanks.
daydreamingda |
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Tue Apr 10, 2007 12:35 am |
| daydreamingda wrote: |
Hi everyone,
I am new here and would like to get your advice:
I've fair and dry skin and has been using DDF SPF30 sunblock after applying ALA or Vit C in the morning. i usually will wait for 5 mins for my ALA or 20 mins for Vit C before putting the sunblock. but dunno why, the sunblock seems to clot... and I dunno if the clotting has even taken away my ALA/ Vit C. so i would like to know - what is the best way to prevent clotting?
my pharmacist friend told me that it is best to use sunscreens with this active ingredient called "PARSOL 1789" which suppose not only to fence off UV, but also to break down any UV that gets into your skin(?!) is it true??
are there other alternatives besides DDF? which is the BEST sunscreen to use?
Many thanks.
daydreamingda |
I would say your friend is very out of date recommending Parsol.
I'm using SS with Tinosorbs because they don't break down with UV exposure.
Your question about which is best is impossible to answer; it's very much an ongoing debate here. People might recommend you one or the other like it's the only one, but it's usually because they haven't learnt enough to confuse themselves yet 
The screen you're using uses physical/mineral filters; they're also good because they don't break down - the protection lasts all day. There is a question mark over how high the UVA protection is with those though. Mostly (unless they are extremely thick and unsightly) it will only have UVA protection of about 8 alongside much higher UVB (SPF) protection. |
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Tue Apr 10, 2007 1:10 am |
| Molly wrote: |
I would say your friend is very out of date recommending Parsol.
I'm using SS with Tinosorbs because they don't break down with UV exposure.
Your question about which is best is impossible to answer; it's very much an ongoing debate here. People might recommend you one or the other like it's the only one, but it's usually because they haven't learnt enough to confuse themselves yet
The screen you're using uses physical/mineral filters; they're also good because they don't break down - the protection lasts all day. There is a question mark over how high the UVA protection is with those though. Mostly (unless they are extremely thick and unsightly) it will only have UVA protection of about 8 alongside much higher UVB (SPF) protection. |
Many thanks Molly.
Any idea how I can prevent the clotting problem? it's quite annoying (hard to wear my makeup!) and more important, I dunno if the actives (eg Vit C or ALA) have been carried away... |
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Tue Apr 10, 2007 1:21 am |
| Sorry, I don't know. Which Vit C or ALA products are you using? |
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Tue Apr 10, 2007 1:31 am |
| Molly wrote: |
| Sorry, I don't know. Which Vit C or ALA products are you using? |
both the 20% Vit C and ALA are from PSF |
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Tue Apr 10, 2007 2:48 am |
Wow.
I've read a LOT of sunscreen threads, and this one has been, hands down, the most informative. It should be required reading! Thanks, girls, for taking the time to contribute in such a helpful way. I don't even know whose posts to thank... I thank you all! 
I returned my unused 2nd tube of Bioderma Max Fluide 50, mostly because I really hated the way it made my skin so hot, and then I noticed that I got some color after sitting on a park bench for about 45 minutes, approx. 1 hr after applying it... I think the MMU translucent powder I used broke down the chemicals a bit, so it's not its fault, really.
Now I have Avene's 'new' Emulsion 50, which supposedly is based on "MPI-sorb" technology, which offers "protection against UVA and UVB rays (maximum absorption spectrum)." It is "combined with patented mineral screens, with Tinosorb M and S. ... It also contains a vitamin E precursor, anti-oxidant pre-tocopherol, which helps to reinforce the cutaneous barrier, Cucurbita pepo [pumpkin enzymes? why?], which regulates sebum secretion." And of course, Avene thermal water.
Now I think I got the wrong one again--la vie recommended the emulsion gel... Well, I suppose one can never have too many; think I will give this one a try this morning.
Re: chemicals on the skin/barriers, I really love Osea's Advanced Protection Cream before my SS--it has algae gels that form a very light and nourishing barrier on the skin. Also, mixing SKB with a moisturizer would amount to virtually the same thing.
***So you guys are telling me that I damaged my skin by walking around in the sun yesterday with Avene's creme minerale all over my face, proudly like a geisha of spring???
--avalange |
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http://newnaturalbeauty.tumblr.com/ 37, light-toned olive skin, broken caps, normal skin. My staples: Osea cleansing milk, Algae Oil, Advanced Protection Cream, Eyes & Lips, Tata Harper, Julie Hewett makeup, Amazing Cosmetics Powder, & By Terry Light Expert, Burnout, and daily inversion therapy and green smoothies! |
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Tue Apr 10, 2007 4:15 am |
| Molly wrote: |
The screen you're using uses physical/mineral filters; they're also good because they don't break down - the protection lasts all day. There is a question mark over how high the UVA protection is with those though. Mostly (unless they are extremely thick and unsightly) it will only have UVA protection of about 8 alongside much higher UVB (SPF) protection. |
Sorry, that might be rubbish. I assumed you were using the DDF 'organic' SPF30 but it could be the other one which uses various chemical screens in which case what I said above doesn't apply.
Avalange - We're not sure about PPD as a measure these days - it just seems biased against non-euro chemicals. And if the white Avene mineral is anything like as obvious as the terrible pink one you might have yourself some rather higher UVA protection. It's these 'elegant' mineral screens that lower the protection. If you think the minerals are deflecting the rays then the less colour/thickness you have the less of that is going on. |
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Tue Apr 10, 2007 4:36 am |
I also agree that this is a very very useful thread. I would like to ask how much does minerals breakdown chemical sunscreens. I'm still not that sure about this issue. So if I want to use MMU or I like a foundation that incidentally have SPF protection based on TiO, how much protection am I getting if I use a chemical sunscreen underneath? For example if I use SPF 50 with a PPD of 20+ and the MMU does break it down, I'm thinking it might be okay if I still end up with SPF 30 protection with a PPD of 15 or something. Or is my logic wrong?
Apart from that I would also like to ask for sunscreen recs. I have easy access to LRP and Avene (not sure about Bioderma) but I'm most interested in the Avene ones. I want something that isn't too thick, a slight white cast is fine, nothing oily/greasy or pore clogging but will not dry my skin out either.
avalange: I've been reading on MUA about Avene sunscreens - would you happen to know how the emulsion differs from the lait? The one you bought (emulsion) seems to get good reviews on MUA but some say it's the same as the lait for twice the price.
For anyone who is very experienced in sunscreens, it would be very helpful to do a chemical sunscreen review on the products review thread that can incorporate all the sunscreens that you have tried, sort of a big comparison which others can add on. It would really help those like me who are newer to chemical sunscreens or those who want a change in deciding which is best of their skintype and which to try. |
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Tue Apr 10, 2007 4:46 am |
| sormuimui wrote: |
The one you bought (emulsion) seems to get good reviews on MUA but some say it's the same as the lait for twice the price.
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I'm just waiting for the emulsion, but I find what you report impossible to believe. You couldn't get thicker and creamier than the lait. I only wear that on my dapples and the beach.
Personally I find the Avene's sticky in this order from most to least: Lait, spray, cream.
As Lavie recommends the gel/cream AKA emulsion as the one that doesn't break her out I'd think, especially as you're in HK, (aren't you? )that the emulsion would be the most bearable. The others were very difficult in Guangzhou in the summer. |
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Tue Apr 10, 2007 5:23 am |
Thanks for clearing that up Molly. I have no idea, I'm totally clueless about chemical sunscreens and have never used any on my face so decided to look it up on MUA. I guess it was wrong to assume "lait" would be a milky texture.
Would you say you prefer Avene vs LRP in terms of texture? Both seem to have wide ranging options for protection.
I'm actually in Vancouver but I'll be moving to HK in the summer. I'm currently using a physical ss (Clarins) and it works for the weather here and I don't feel I really need a super high PPD in Vancouver and was really eyeing L'occitane's Very precious Fluid SPF 40 but I think I might need a higher PPD in HK.
You know, sometimes I really wonder if Asian sunscreens (which usually contain both physical and chemical active ingredients) are not enough. Many of the most popular brands have this attribute - Fancl, Sofina, Shiseido, etc. And even if they do use a european sunscreens a lot of popular foundations contain SPF using TiO which would break it down anyways. Many Asians really age gracefully and most do not look there age. I'm sure a part has to do with genetics but if all this is true about sunscreens shouldn't Asians (who live in tropical climates) suffer from a lot of sun damage and age quicker due to the UVA rays and inadequate PPD protection? |
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Tue Apr 10, 2007 1:48 pm |
I'm afraid the LRP is one of the few I haven't tried and won't bother.
Frankly, I'm having big euro ss internal crises myself lately so I know what you mean - I might go physical.
But I think the genes have it in China. In my small country city none of them used SS and most of them had very fine skin for their ages. The women would avoid direct sunlight, but the men wouldn't much and I've even got photos of farmers in their fifties who look about 30 and it was certainly without the use of Sofina  |
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Tue Apr 10, 2007 4:07 pm |
Hi
Interesting subject! As I live in Australia and also work outside all day in the hottest part of the day I wear a sunscreeen 20spf then put revelon colourstay 15spf on top of that I put Pola powder (mainly to set foundation) which also has 20 spf. Although this sounds alot I also spray on a sunscreen at lunch time over my make-up that is spf 30. I have never been burnt and my skin is quite white, but I changed sunscreens a while ago now I have this pigmentation on one side of my face. You would think that all of this protects me. Also one quick question, does sunscreen protect you from the wind? |
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Tue Apr 10, 2007 5:01 pm |
Hi Mardybum
I don't know how much you've looked into things, but just in case - do you know that there are conflicts between different types of SS and also makeup containing them. This means your protection may be lowered by layering depending on the mix.
Here's a discussion we had previously
http://www.essentialdayspa.com/forum/viewtopic.php?tid=16093&start=25 |
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Tue Apr 10, 2007 5:17 pm |
| Thanks Molly will look at this thread closely as I really need protection being out in these harsh climates all day. |
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Tue Apr 10, 2007 6:20 pm |
I just went and re-read some of my previously bookmarked ss info and was quite unclear about UVA rays.
On the MUA notepad it is said that "TiO2 does not provide as good protection against long-wave UVA-I rays as ZnO but is more efficient. Hence, TiO may give higher PPDs than ZnO without providing greater UVA-I protection because UVA-II is higher energy and so has a higher potential to cause pigment darkening"
So which are the ones more responsible for skin-aging - UVA-I (long wave) or UVA-II (short wave) rays?
Like I said, I've been eyeing the L'Occitane Immortelle SPF Fluid which states SPF 40 PA+++ and has a 12% TiO content as its active ingredient so I am assuming it will give me around a PPD of 8. So would this be enough for daily use and then opt for a stronger euro ss when I know I'll be in the sun for longer periods of time? |
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Tue Apr 10, 2007 8:01 pm |
| Molly wrote: |
| Molly wrote: |
The screen you're using uses physical/mineral filters; they're also good because they don't break down - the protection lasts all day. There is a question mark over how high the UVA protection is with those though. Mostly (unless they are extremely thick and unsightly) it will only have UVA protection of about 8 alongside much higher UVB (SPF) protection. |
Sorry, that might be rubbish. I assumed you were using the DDF 'organic' SPF30 but it could be the other one which uses various chemical screens in which case what I said above doesn't apply.
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Hi Molly,
I've been using DDF MOISTURIZING PHOTO-AGE PROTECTION SPF 30
http://www.ddfskincare.com/Pages/MainPage.aspx?Page=Product&ProductId=286
Would you recommend me to change to another one? what are the choices?
a million thanks!!! |
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Tue Apr 10, 2007 8:35 pm |
Anyone tried Loreal UV Perfect Advanced Fluid Protector SPF50 PA+++ makeup base? It contains Mexoryl XL so it's supposed to be quite protective. It's sold in the asian countries only. I just ordered it online and am wondering if anyone here try this and can tell me about their experience with it? In terms of texture and color?
Also, I'm wondering if any of u apply sunscreen SPF 50+ around their eyes? Are there any problems with clogged pores? Thanks! |
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Tue Apr 10, 2007 10:39 pm |
Hi Stardustdy
I haven't tried the L'Oreal UV perfect so can't speak for its texture, but while I'm here.....
You say it has 'quite' good protection because it contains Mexoryl, but because its made lighter for the humid asian climate the UVA protection is estimated to be only 8 PPD
http://makeupalley.com/user/notepad/sunscreens#asia
Besides I'm not that convinced by Mexoryl since Theresa dug up some info showing the main protection in their screens is using Avobenzone as it doesn't protect in the deeper, more aging part of the spectrum very well.
http://www.essentialdayspa.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=16403&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=25
Mardy Bum - you might also like to take a look at Kathleen's info on using make-up and how SS wears during the day. I don't agree with everything she says about SS but I think the practical advice about application and usage is good and succinct
http://www.skincarecentral.biz/sunscreens-about-.html
Hi Daydreamingda
Sorry, I'm a chicken about recommending particular SS these days. I think its up to the individual to find out the basics at least, weigh up the pros and cons of each kind and make their own informed decision.
Have a quick peek at my SS faq - I've changed my mind a bit since I wrote it, but it tells you the main types of screen at least.
http://www.essentialdayspa.com/forum/viewthread.php?p=162146#162146
Yours is a purely chemical sunscreen and its main actives are:
Octylmethoxycinnamate, Octyl Salicylate, Benzophenone-3, Parsol 1789
My first reaction is that this an older style chemical screen which traps the UV rays and breaks down doing that so you need to reapply. If it's all day protection for incidental exposure your after it's not going to be very effective. I stopped looking at these kind of screens years ago so if I'm wrong there someone please correct me.
I'm not too chicken to say that two popular choices here this year (it changes) are Sofina (mostly physical, a little bit chemical) which has low UVA protection (PPD 8 ) and is mattifying and Avene (uses Tinosorbs), high PPD 20ish but a bit white and sticky. Both of these will last all day and you can use MMU over them without degrading the protection. |
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Wed Apr 11, 2007 3:11 am |
Thanks a lot, Molly. that's very helpful and informative!!  |
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Wed Apr 11, 2007 1:31 pm |
[quote="Molly"]Hi Stardustdy
I haven't tried the L'Oreal UV perfect so can't speak for its texture, but while I'm here.....
You say it has 'quite' good protection because it contains Mexoryl, but because its made lighter for the humid asian climate the UVA protection is estimated to be only 8 PPD
http://makeupalley.com/user/notepad/sunscreens#asia
Besides I'm not that convinced by Mexoryl since Theresa dug up some info showing the main protection in their screens is using Avobenzone as it doesn't protect in the deeper, more aging part of the spectrum very well.
http://www.essentialdayspa.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=16403&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=25
Molly, thanks for the info. But how can one tell what's the PPD when u purchase a sunscreen? I thought it's good protection for UVA cuz it's SPF 50/PA+++ but it only has a PPD of 8  Also, many of u says that foundation that contains TiO2 should not be used cuz it'll degrade the sunscreen, but TiO2 is considered one of the ingrediants in this Loreal sunscreen. So what's the deal here? I'm really confused and frustrated in choosing a good sunscreen in terms of UVA protection. Also, I saw that some high SPF sunscreens actually have a lower PPD than a lower SPF sunscreens. Can someone pls clarify this? And I'm really wondering wat PPD is enough if I'm not planning to stay under direct sunlight for more than say 1/2 an hr? I know I'm getting paranoid here but if somebody can answer my questions, that would be super!!  |
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Wed Apr 11, 2007 2:17 pm |
Hi Stardustdy - Out of confusion comes englightenment.
I agree, for half an hour's sun a day PPD 8 is probably fine. A lot are happy with Asian screens for everyday, incidental exposure.
The Japanese measure for UVA protection only goes up to PA+++ (maybe because it was established before higher UVA protection was possible) and that's considered equal to about PPD 8. To find out a PPD you can either google it or use an online simulator called CIBA 
I don't know this screen very well. It doesn't use avobenzone so maybe it IS OK to use MMU with it. Most Mexoryl SS also use Avobenzone which you can't use MMU with.
Here are the ingredients:
Active ingredients: Mexoryl SX, Mexoryl XL, OXY, OMC, TiO2
(TiO2 = Titanium Dioxide
OXY = oxybenzone = benzophenone-3
OMC = ethylhexyl methoxycinnamate = octyl methoxycinnamate = octinoxate)
Anyone else? Is this OK to go with MMU? |
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Wed Apr 11, 2007 3:17 pm |
Molly: Since I was looking for answers to my question above I did some research myself and started reading many abstracts of scientific experiments online. From what I've read it seems that the only ingredient that degrades with TiO2 is Avobenzone. It has also been found that chemical ss is more effective when combined with physical ingredients like TiO or ZnO than alone (they tested it with OMC). However I was unable to find too much about Tinosorb and Mexoryl, just found they increased UVA protection and are way better than just Zno and TiO alone.
From what I know you can have a high PPD with low SPF as SPF represents mainly how well it protects UVB rays. PPD is more for UVA rays but may still be insufficient as there are 2 differend types of UVA rays. So even a PA+++ (PPD of with only TiO would mean you are getting UVA protection from mainly the short-waves and not the long ones (340-400mm). I couldn't find info on which are more detrimental to skin but it seems it's important to get broad spectrum UVA protection as well. And there's no point in using a ss and adding that extra step if it means my skin can still be attacked by particular UV rays.
Stardusty: You're in Vancouver so I wouldn't be too worried about not getting adequate sun protection. We don't really get very high UV rays here, even in the summer compared to many other places. I think a PPD of 8 would be just fine as long as you get broad spectrum UVA (meaning a ss with TiO + another ingredient like ZnO, Mexoryl or Tinosorb). |
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Wed Apr 11, 2007 7:34 pm |
Sormuimui Thanks for reassuring me! haha That's what I thought too. I don't usually stay under direct sunlight for long. Well, I guess taking the skytrain counts too right? Mostly, I stay indoor but there are windows. hhm...so PPD 8 should be efficient I hope?
Also, I'm not sure if any of u noticed that your guy frds around u seem to have nice and flawless skin but they don't use sunscreen at all!!  So I'm always wondering if UV rays are damaging to the skin, how come those guys can get away with it?  |
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Wed Apr 11, 2007 10:05 pm |
Stardusty: yeah it should be sufficient. I never used to wear sunscreen (never thought it was important until I learned on EDS) and I rarely get a tan even in the summer (I have pretty light skin). So you should be fine with PPD of 8, the only reason I'm looking for something else is that it probably won't be enough for me when I go back to HK where it's much more tropical and the UV rays are much much higher.
Well that's what I noticed in general with most Asians guys and girls. My mom never wore sunscreen in her life and she looks at least 10 years younger than her age, she doesn't even have a wrinkle, only very very shallow crows feet on her eyes and she's 51! That's why sometimes I wonder whether it's really necessary but then I read a lot of scientific articles on how UV rays really damage the immunity of your skin which probably affects other aspects apart from aging. And since I have problem skin in the first place, it's probably better to tread on the side of precaution. That's my personal opinion on it anyways. |
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