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Mabsy
Moderator
 
Joined: 17 Aug 2003
Posts: 9644
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Wed Aug 09, 2006 6:26 am  |
Well, I have been planning to do this for ages folks but somehow time just got away from me and I kept postponing this. Essentially, what I would like to do is minimise some of the repetitive questions/answers that we get on the forum. In other words, I would like to create an EDS FAQ of various ingredients so that when we get another "how is a vitamin C serum good for the skin?" question or "what is the difference between AHAs and BHAs?", rather than start the whole discussion again we can quickly point the member to the FAQ (which will be placed in the library).
Of course, this is a HUGE job for one person and in between work, house building, sleep, and general EDS relaxation I can't possibly do this on my own. Hence, I have devised a little scheme through which we can all contribute and also be rewarded for the contributions 
Each Sunday, until the end of August, I will draw TWO $50 vouchers from all people who contribute quality description/definition content to this thread. Contributions *must* be in your own words (no copying from other sites please - this is a copyright violation and I do not wish for EDS to get in trouble) and also be comprehensive. You may build on other people's posts (about the same ingredient for example) if there is a substantial contribution.
Below is a list of some of the more obvious things that we need information about, however please use your judgement and think about some of the other repeat questions that we get here as well. If you do not wish to participate in providing the content, but would still like to see certain terms covered here then by all means please suggest them.
[List updated on 11th Aug]
Alpha Hydroxy Acids (AHAs) (e.g. glycolic acid)
Beta Hydroxy Acids (BHAs) (e.g. salicylic acid)
Hyaluronic Acid
Alpha Lipoic Acid (ALA)
Vitamin C serum
Copper Peptides
Idebenone
Retinol/Retinoid
Mineral Makeup (incl. ingredients that some react to)
Sunblock (UVA vs UVB; "good" active ingredients)
Argireline
DMAE
Hydroquinone
Green Creme
Vitamin E
OCM (Oil Cleansing Method)
Acne prescriptions (e.g. Differin, Accutane)
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And so on....
I hope that you will all see the benefit of such a thread and will be willing to participate in this effort. Please post your contributions (or suggestions) as a reply to this thread and I will be putting together a locked sticky post that has contributions (together with acknowledgements to the authors).
ps. The draw is random and *all* "contributors" are involved in the Sunday draws, not just the ones that contributed since the previous draw.
Updated on 28/8/06. Thank you for all those who participated in the competition, which has now concluded. I hope we will continue to see contributions though and I will organise the FAQ this week to get it in better shape... |
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Wed Aug 09, 2006 7:28 am |
Hi Mabsy,
that's an excellent idea !
You think we should put "hydroquinone" on the list ? green creme ? salycylic acid ? glycol ? retinol/retinoid ? Vitamin E ? |
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Wed Aug 09, 2006 7:32 am |
| This is a great idea! I think it will help everyone out, not just the new people. Please add OCM to that list too. It seems a lot of people question what it is. |
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Wed Aug 09, 2006 9:46 am |
| Maybe add a thread on the many different cosmetic oils. There seems to be a lot of questions on these. |
_________________
51 years old/brunette/normal- oily medium skin. |
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Wed Aug 09, 2006 10:45 am |
| what about threads on just parts that people keep asking about. I know I spent a sunday compiling diff raves of various products to try to create the best of the best (yes totally for selfish purposes). So what about an EYE, FACE, NECK, ect. thread. |
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Wed Aug 09, 2006 7:57 pm |
| Acne prescriptions such as Differin & Accutane |
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Wed Aug 09, 2006 9:12 pm |
How about the best treatments to treat types of skin:
for instance:
treatment(s) for reducing excessive oiliness in oily skin.
treatment(s) for calming redness and irritation.
etc..... |
_________________
early-mid 30s || oily-combination, sensitive & acne-prone skin || mild breakouts (Aczone helps a lot) || occasional eczema rashes || fine lines around eyes || very dark under eye cirlces- concealer a must || very fair neutral-warm complexion, blue eyes, blonde hair |
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Mabsy
Moderator
Joined: 17 Aug 2003
Posts: 9644
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Thu Aug 10, 2006 2:33 am |
Thanks ladies, I've updated the list. Let the contributions begin! 
I'm going to add a link to the various facial oils in there once we're done but have not made it an item as we already have this indexed in the DIY index post.
It's a good idea to have a "best of" list(s) but this will depend on skin type etc. Generally people asking these questions also want fresh input and it's something that EDS would need to continually update, which is difficult and also subjective. For now let us get the core requirements out of the way and let's move up from there  |
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Thu Aug 10, 2006 4:57 am |
Well I’m not sure if I’m doing this correct (great idea btw Mabsy! ), but I have decided to write something brief about the main difference between AHAs & BHAs which is something I’m interested in & so a while ago I got some advice from a Dermatologist (who is also a family friend) in regards to the difference between AHAs & BHAs, so here goes…
AHAs v's BHAs:
From my understanding there is only one main type of Beta Hydroxy Acid (BHA) available, Salicylic Acid which is usually the most popular or common form of exfoliant that people know of. BHA is derived from asprin & hence has some anti-inflammatory properties (I was suprised when I heard this! ) & is therefore less likely to cause skin damage or irritation in comparision to AHAs
However in terms of Alpha Hydroxy Acids (AHA) there are several different types available/used. These include: glycolic acid (from sugar cane), lactic acid (from milk), malic acid (from apples/pears), citric acid (from citrus fruits), & tartaric acid (from grapes). The most commonly used & apparently the strongest & most effective of these is glycolic acid.
The main difference between AHAs & BHAs is based on their solubility. BHAs tend to be oil-soluble & are therefore considered to be better for oily, blemish-prone skin types. Seeing as they are oil-soluble they can penetrate oily skin to exfoliate deep down into the pores to help keep them clear, reducing blemishes & blackheads.
Whereas AHAs are actually water-soluble, and therefore don’t exfoliate deep down into pores, but tend to exfoliate mostly the skin surface. Seeing as AHAs are water-soluble they tend to have moisturising/hydrating properties as well, & are therefore more suitable for mature, wrinkled, dry or sun-damaged skin types. Apparently AHAs (& BHAs) with lower pH levels i.e. lower acidity tend to have the highest & fastest rate of absorption into the skin, & therefore provide the best exfoliation.
I am not 100% sure about this, but as far as I know both AHAs & BHAs work similarly in terms of exfoliation. They both slough off dead surface skin cells to reveal newer & healthier cells. This process helps improve uneven skin tone, roughness, wrinkles, sun-damage, freckles & blemishes, to name a few. Due to the removal of the outer layer of dead skin cells, both AHAs & BHAs also allow the skin to absorb moisture a lot more easily.
I won’t go into the side effects of BHAs & AHAs as I assume most people are aware that they can cause some redness or skin/sun sensitivity
Sorry if this is too brief or basic  . Please feel free to add any corrections or extra comments |
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Mabsy
Moderator
Joined: 17 Aug 2003
Posts: 9644
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Thu Aug 10, 2006 6:14 am |
| Fantastic! Thank you Safire - that's exaclty what I was hoping for. Others can add on to this if they wish, or write up something else. Thanks again! |
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Thu Aug 10, 2006 7:06 am |
This is a super idea!
Unfortunately, my knowledge of these things isn't that good, but I'll add any bits and pieces if I think of them.
In the meantime, how about adding something on using a toner, as lots of people ask whether it's necessary and what it actually does?
Other very popular subjects are eyelash growth serums, self-tanners and home microdermabrasion. |
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Thu Aug 10, 2006 8:33 am |
OK, I went ahead and tried my hand at it:
Acne Prescription Topicals- Vitamin A Derivatives:
One of the most popular families of prescription acne topical therapy is the Vitamin A derivatives. This group includes Retin-A, Renova, Tazorac, and Differin. Out of this group, Differin is considered the topical cream with the least potential to irritate the skin. That being said, different formulations work for different people, so if you are still unsatisfied with the results you are receiving after a couple months with one product you might consider going back to your dermatologist and trying a different formulation.
The vitamin A derivatives are known as “keratolytics”--- they dissolve the plugs of keratin that would otherwise be clogging your pores. At the same time, they exfoliate the superficial layer of your skin while encouraging collagen-production in the deeper layers. That’s why vitamin A derivatives have also come to be used in anti-aging regimens as well.
While vitamin A derivatives are often very effective in keeping pores unclogged, if someone is suffering from painful, cystic acne it’s likely that the vitamin A derivative alone will not be enough to solve the problem. In this case, either another topical therapy, such as sulfer or a topical antibiotic, or an oral antibiotic are often suggested.
One drawback to using vitamin A derivatives is that there is a high risk of the skin being highly sensitized, especially when the treatment is first started. Many people complain of red, peeling, irritated skin. Depending on your skin type and the product you are using some of this irritation may be inevitable and once your skin adjusts you will begin to see more consistent results. However, there are steps you can take to minimize your risk of irritation:
1) Begin by applying the product every other night, until you see how your skin will react.
2) Wash your face with a mild cleanser, follow up with a mild toner, and then wait 15 or 20 minutes to give your skin a chance to dry completely. (Water increases the potential for irritation.)
3) Initially restrict your use of other actives such as AHA, BHA acids, etc. Once your skin has adjusted to the medication, begin to slowly add the actives back into your routine, one at a time. Give your skin time to adjust to each new product, and watch it carefully for excessive dryness, redness, or peeling.
4) Avoid using other very strong topical treatments such as 10% benzoyl peroxide or sulfur until you have consulted a dermatologist.
5) Vitamin A derivatives will make your skin more susceptible to sun damage, so be absolutely sure to use a broad-spectrum sunblock during the day. |
_________________
27, sensitive/reactive/acne prone skin, dark brown hair, blue eyes, possibly the palest woman alive... |
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Thu Aug 10, 2006 11:05 am |
what a great idea!!
I read a book that aubreys organics put out that out lines allof their ingerdients and it was great!
I don't have it any more though.... |
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Thu Aug 10, 2006 3:33 pm |
From some of the research I did prior to purchasing my Vit C:
Vitamin C
Vitamin C must be in the form of L'ascorbic acid for it to be beneficial for skin. It is a water-soluble antioxidant that stimulates both collagen synthesis and provides sun protection. L'ascorbic acid provides sun protection by neutralizing free radicals which are highly reactive molecules produced by the interaction of sunlight (UV rays) and our skin tissue. In other words, it helps prevent premature aging due to photodamage. That is why it is used in many preventative skincare products and when used, makes a good complementary product to sunscreen.
Vitamin C also helps with those who are already beginning to see signs of aging. It has been proven to be one of the only antioxidants that stimulate collagen synthesis. How, I am not sure, but it seems to be one of the only compounds that the body recognizes for this purpose. Through collagen synthesis, Vitamin C has shown to contribute in healing and alleviating skin problems and thus would be suitable to most or all skintypes.
Once Vitamin C is absorbed it cannot be rubbed or washed off. However L'ascorbic acid is still relatively unstable and will oxidize in time (depending on how stable a particular product is - the more stable the less quickly oxidization). Vitamin C topicals should always be stored away from light, in a cool and dry place. It tends to oxidize and lose its effectiveness more quickly if stored in direct sunlight (thus the amber colored bottles). |
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Thu Aug 10, 2006 5:33 pm |
Hydroquinone/Kojic Acid
Hydroquinone is what’s known as a “Bleaching Agent.” Actually, it’s the only chemical that the FDA will currently allow to be called as such. Hydroquinone is used to treat hyperpigmentation but ironically it does not “bleach,” but rather it inhibits melanin production. The process can be expedited by manual or chemical exfoliation, and of course a broad spectrum sunblock MUST be used to prevent more damage and melanin production.
Many people, however, approach hydroquinone with caution. The higher concentrations present a risk for something called “ochronosis” which is a condition where dark spots appear on the skin. The FDA deems hydroquinone to be otherwise safe, but it has been banned in some other countries where studies have indicated that it may be carcinogenic as well as a cause of birth defects.
People who don’t feel comfortable with using hydroquinone often instead use Kojic Acid. Kojic Acid is botanically-derived and it has similar melanin-blocking properties to hydroquinone but it does not share the risk for ochronosis, nor has it been indicated as being carcinogenic. Like Hydroquinone, Kojic Acid will be the most effective when it is used with a broad spectrum sun block. |
_________________
27, sensitive/reactive/acne prone skin, dark brown hair, blue eyes, possibly the palest woman alive... |
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Thu Aug 10, 2006 6:57 pm |
SUPER DUPER IDEA MABSY!!!!
How about a list of favorites or products that get the best reviews...or something to the affect.
I will try and find someway to contribute very soon. |
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Thu Aug 10, 2006 7:36 pm |
| This is a wonderful idea. I would caution users, however, that this information may or may not be of a "professional" quality and may actually be contradictory. As a toxicologist, I become concerned when I see descriptions of chemicals in products (i.e. hydroquinones, DMAE, etc.) which may only give part of the story. Sometimes a little further research and/or consultation with a dermatologist or physician may be in order. |
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Thu Aug 10, 2006 7:52 pm |
| phdfordlg wrote: |
| This is a wonderful idea. I would caution users, however, that this information may or may not be of a "professional" quality and may actually be contradictory. As a toxicologist, I become concerned when I see descriptions of chemicals in products (i.e. hydroquinones, DMAE, etc.) which may only give part of the story. Sometimes a little further research and/or consultation with a dermatologist or physician may be in order. |
I get that with hydroquinones or even retin A but dmae, ur kidding right.. |
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Thu Aug 10, 2006 7:55 pm |
| Hi phdfordlg! I don't think any of us are trying to replace advice from the doctor. Rather, I think the purpose here of this collection is give people a resource they can go to if they are thinking to themselves "What on earth is AHA? What's DMAE?" We don't that our descriptions are textbook-worthy, we're just trying to share what knowledge we have. As a toxicologist, it seems like you're in a great position to share info with us too! |
_________________
27, sensitive/reactive/acne prone skin, dark brown hair, blue eyes, possibly the palest woman alive... |
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Thu Aug 10, 2006 8:29 pm |
| manslayerliz wrote: |
| Hi phdfordlg! I don't think any of us are trying to replace advice from the doctor. Rather, I think the purpose here of this collection is give people a resource they can go to if they are thinking to themselves "What on earth is AHA? What's DMAE?" We don't that our descriptions are textbook-worthy, we're just trying to share what knowledge we have. As a toxicologist, it seems like you're in a great position to share info with us too! |
yes I agree, just re-read, and I totaly miss read it, the first time. Caution is always the name of the game. |
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Mabsy
Moderator
Joined: 17 Aug 2003
Posts: 9644
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Fri Aug 11, 2006 12:39 am |
Thank you for all the contributions so far - please keep them coming. I will compile the first draft of the FAQ thread on Sunday when the first vouchers are drawn. We will then update that.
phdfordlg - I agree that caution is always required and there will definitely be a disclaimer to that effect in the FAQ. As others have said, this is more of a "centralised first point of call" to keep things tidy and make it easier to direct people to the right summary. Thanks for your comment and I'm looking forward to your contributions |
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Fri Aug 11, 2006 12:58 am |
Damn! Really good idea and lots of stuff I'd like to write about, but I'm so busy this month. 
Am I allowed to re-use things I've written before and squash them into a summary. I'm always talking CPs for example?
M |
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Fri Aug 11, 2006 2:46 am |
I dont know enough about anything to write anything..  |
_________________
SKIN: combination, reactive to climate changes and extremely fair. "Women complain about premenstrual syndrome, but I think of it as the only time of the month that I can be myself." --Roseanne |
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Mabsy
Moderator
Joined: 17 Aug 2003
Posts: 9644
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Fri Aug 11, 2006 2:51 am |
Molly - Yes! Please do
Tiger_tim - I am *sure* that you can contribute somewhere! |
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Fri Aug 11, 2006 8:30 am |
FIRST DRAFT
Needs formatting and a few tweaks actually (especially the opening sentence), but I'm going away for the weekend and I want to be in with a chance for the prize draw Night night.
COPPER PEPTIDES
Copper peptides are always naturally present in the skin and there are higher levels of it when the skin has been damaged which triggers repair. Products containing Copper Peptides (CPs) are a way of introducing this function topically and using the natural process of healing to accelerate skin renewal. In tests copper peptides have been shown to; remove damaged proteins and collagen and stimulate the production of new GAGs (water holding proteins), elastin and collagen. CPs are also both anti-inflammatory and a potent anti-oxidant so skin improvements should be achieved without the kind of skin barrier irritation typically experienced when using retinoids or AHAs. The long-term result should be thicker, firmer skin with better moisture retention and (maybe) a reduction in wrinkles. This process is often referred to as ‘remodelling’.
What are they used for?
Here on EDS - Primarily anti-aging, but also scar reduction and sometimes mole reduction or elimination. Some users recommend them just for healing after peels and microdermabrasion.
Product confusion!!! Which to use?
There are two types of copper peptide used in skincare products which causes some confusion; First generation CPs which are used in most products including Renova and Neutrogena and second generation CPs which are only used in Skinbio’s products and they have slightly different properties (so see note below about what you can use them with). Both were invented by Doctor Pickart who first worked for Procyte and then set up Skinbio (www.skinbio.com). More peer reviewed tests have been carried out on the ‘first generation’ CPs, but the products which use them have lower percentages than were used in those tests. The second generation CPs (Skinbio’s) only have tests behind them to prove healing not anti-aging so we can only assume that these will reduce wrinkles, but they do have the same percentages of the active in them.
What can’t you use them with
First generation CPs (e.g.Neova/Neutrogena) are not stable when used with acids so you cannot combine them with AHAs, BHAs, Retin A etc.
CPs of both kinds cannot be applied to the skin at the same time as Vitamin C because Vitamin C is neutralized by copper, (but only on the surface of the skin not once it has absorbed and become part of the skin matrix. In fact both copper and Vitamin C are naturally present in the skin at the same time.) A lot of users do combine CPs and Vitamin C by using one in the evening and the other in the morning.
How do you use them?
They can be used AM (as they do not make you sun sensitive) or PM, or both. It’s best to start with products with low concentrations until your skin is used to it. You can layer Skinbio’s CPs with acids (acids first then CPs) or Retinoids (retinoids first then CPs) and many other actives to speed up renewal.
Warning: Skinbio has some extra strong products – Tri-reduction, SuperCP serum, Supercop cream and Supercop X 2 which can be highly irritating and should only be used after months of use of the lower level products.
How long until I see results
A lot of people experience a glow and generally healthier skin very quickly down to the repair of the skin barrier and CP’s anti-oxidant properties, but to see signs of renewed proteins, increased moisturisation and collagen you should give it 3 months at least.
Problems
Some people experience ‘the uglies’ where people get fine lines and sagging skin at some point during use. There’s no agreement about the cause and it seems to particularly afflict people in the eye area. One theory puts this down to irritation from using too much too quickly or general overuse, another that some individuals might be hyper-sensitive to copper and finally that in some individuals the damaged proteins and collagen are being removed but for some reason the skin function does not replace these quickly enough . Some people carry on using albeit more slowly and ‘the uglies’ vanish, others find continued use doesn’t sort out their problem. |
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