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Fri Sep 22, 2006 12:58 pm |
Thought I'd share this article from Dermadoctor. I remember there was some discussion a while back about chemical sunscreens causing free radical damage. This article explains why this may occur. That being said, for those who wear suncreen under make-up, who the heck is going to wash their face & reapply every 2 hours as this article suggests The powder with SPF sounds like a good option though-but hasn't the sunscreen you've put on in the morning already broken down & causing the free radical damage. So what's putting suncreen over it going to do. I guess this is another vote for non-chemical block although, for some reason, this wasn't brought up in this article by Dr. Kunin as an alternative
This is food for thought & I welcome any views on this. We're all spending gazzilions on repairing the damage so preventing more of it should be just as important.
Sunscreen Can Damage Skin if Applied Infrequently
Livescience.com ran this headline just yesterday, which made the front page of yahoo.com. It summarized a study funded by the National Science Foundation and the National Institutes of Health, and about to be detailed in the respected scientific journal Free Radical Biology & Medicine.
The gist of the story was the realization that over a period of hours, sunscreen particles (mainly octylmethoxycinnamate, benzophenone-3 and octocrylene) are able to work their way down and get scattered under the various layers of epidermal cells.
Why was this important? Because of two main issues they found:
After 2 hours, there was no longer enough sunscreen left on the surface to block the UV light.
The individual sunscreen particles now trapped beneath the skin’s surface were able to react with the UV light and create more free radicals (and by association, free radical damage) than the UV light would cause alone.
The important point to stress here is that sunscreen is NOT dangerous to use. It’s an important method to protect our skin from damaging UV rays in addition to sun avoidance and wearing protective garb.
What can prevent this problem from happening? Reapply your sunscreen every 2 hours. It will provide adequate levels of sunscreen on skin’s surface to block UV rays and prevent them from getting beneath the surface in the first place as well as reacting with any individual particles that worked their way down over the course of the day.
This is not news. Dermatologists have been saying for decades, and sunscreen bottles labelled accordingly, to reapply sunscreen every 2 hours – this is because over the course of the day we sweat it off (even if you don’t feel like you are heavily perspiring). Remember, there is no such thing as a waterproof sunscreen. You still need to reapply every 2 hours.
What to do if wearing sunscreen under make-up? No easy answer here. Assuming one is indoors while wearing make-up, try to reapply sunscreen and make-up at some point during the day, try using a make-up with added sunscreen, use a make-up that´s opaque and won´t let the UV rays in the first place, or touch up with an SPF containing powder would be easiest option.
If you are, however, simply outdoors playing during the weekend without make-up, reapply that sunscreen! |
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Fri Sep 22, 2006 1:08 pm |
This topic really bothers me. I mean like you said, who's going to wash their makeup off every two hours to reapply their sunscreen? Pretty much no one I'm sure! I'm already spending enough money on sunscreen without applying it five times a day! I can answer why dusting a powder with sunscreen would be advantageous though. The sunscreen that's been absorbed doesn't create free radicals on its' own- it creates free radicals if it's being exposed to uv rays. So if you keep a protective layer of powder on top of your skin, it keeps the rays from reaching most those absorbed chemicals. Hope I'm explaining this right. |
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Fri Sep 22, 2006 1:13 pm |
Thank you. That makes perfect sense. Now to find a good pressed powder with spf that's sheer enough to apply every couple of hours.My other question would be; I assume this isn't a problem with non-chemical sunscreens, right? |
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Fri Sep 22, 2006 1:24 pm |
I just ordered an all-physical sunscreen so I'm hoping I'm better off using that than a chemical one. Of course after I ordered I started doing research on the ingredients that they use in physical sunscreens. Some people say that it's possible some titanium dioxide (if the particles are small enough) can be absorbed into the skin and cause the same problems that the chemical ones cause with free radicals. But they don't seem to be absorbed at nearly as high a rate as chemicals in chemical sunscreens will be. Soooo I'm just going to stick with the physical sunscreen because if I worry about it too much it'll drive me completely insane. We just can't win, haha! |
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Fri Sep 22, 2006 3:10 pm |
This issue bothers me too, and I have been using physical sunscreens, but I must admit that I don't look forward to applying them in the morning as they all seem to leave that white cast on my skin and I have a sneaking suspicion they clog my pores... |
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Fri Sep 22, 2006 3:45 pm |
Smoothskin wrote: |
This issue bothers me too, and I have been using physical sunscreens, but I must admit that I don't look forward to applying them in the morning as they all seem to leave that white cast on my skin and I have a sneaking suspicion they clog my pores... |
I'll eventually get the one from Remergent (sounds really good & apparently dries matte) but it's really $$$. But, when you have melasma, I guess price should't really be an issue. It's be great just to be able to "face" the sun without fear. |
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Fri Sep 22, 2006 4:41 pm |
marina wrote: |
Smoothskin wrote: |
This issue bothers me too, and I have been using physical sunscreens, but I must admit that I don't look forward to applying them in the morning as they all seem to leave that white cast on my skin and I have a sneaking suspicion they clog my pores... |
I'll eventually get the one from Remergent (sounds really good & apparently dries matte) but it's really $$$. But, when you have melasma, I guess price should't really be an issue. It's be great just to be able to "face" the sun without fear. |
Actually the Remergent isn't very expensive because the good physical sunscreens on the market and the much raved about ones like Clarins UVPlus or Sofina are about $30-40CAD per 30mL tube, and this is 100mL so I'd say about the same. It'll take a long time to use up so don't worry |
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Fri Sep 22, 2006 6:09 pm |
Thanks. I hadn't checked the size. I actually purchased the Clarins one and I was shocked at how teeny it was-didn't check the size of that one either By the way, the Clarins dosne't offer great protection but it sure feels nice. |
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Fri Sep 22, 2006 6:42 pm |
Well marina, you've really got me going about this issue! I've been doing Internet searches in order to try to find out if my Avene sunscreens contain any of those 3 ingredients that were mentioned in the article you cited. They don't, but since I don't have any background in science, I can't be certain that similar ingredients aren't included in Avene. Avene's active sunscreen ingredient is Tinosorb, which hasn't yet been approved by the US FDA.
What's more, many makeup products contain some of the 3 ingredients, so we have to worry about those as well as sunscreen.
I of course don't wash my face every 2 hours and reapply sunscreen and makeup. I can't imagine anyone would. I just hope I'm not applying anything to my face that's doing more harm than good! I'll be interested if any other forum members can shed some light on this situation. In fact, I'm counting on it! |
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Fri Sep 22, 2006 8:07 pm |
eep... i wonder if they aren't dangerous if they contain mexoryl? |
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Fri Sep 22, 2006 10:18 pm |
I thought that is why people switch to photostable sunscreen to avoid the breakdown issue and no need for reapplying every 2 hours. |
_________________ ~~ super-sensitive, dry, dermatitis prone, rosacea/northern calif ~~ |
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Sat Sep 23, 2006 5:28 am |
I agree with Jumpingball and Mtview. No need for alarm. From the date of this first post in 2003! you can see they're talking old SS chemicals. The Euros are not only stable, but are designed not to absorb as far as possible.
Here's another good discussion lately on makeup degrading or not degrading SS.
http://www.essentialdayspa.com/forum/viewthread.php?p=149624&highlight=#149624 |
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Sat Sep 23, 2006 9:08 am |
mtview wrote: |
I thought that is why people switch to photostable sunscreen to avoid the breakdown issue and no need for reapplying every 2 hours. |
That's why I've been looking for octocrylene(sp?) along with the parsol-but this article mentions octocrylene as one of those that break down. Anyway, I knew about the stability part but was surprised to read Kunin confirm that these sunscreens can actually harm your skin if not reapplied-that's worse than just being unprotected. Esp. since her own sunscreens (unless) they've changed, are not stable. Speaking of unstable sunscreens, I wonder how Paula Begoun will spin this one?
As for the euros, all I can say is, wish I could use them. I think from the reviews, I'll try the bioderma formula.
Just wanted to add, the euros may be stable (they don't break down) but they still have to be reapplied every 2 hours in order to be effective-I learned this the hard way again |
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Sat Sep 23, 2006 3:24 pm |
Quote: |
As for the euros, all I can say is, wish I could use them. I think from the reviews, I'll try the bioderma formula.
Just wanted to add, the euros may be stable (they don't break down) but they still have to be reapplied every 2 hours in order to be effective-I learned this the hard way again |
Honestly Marina, I don't find that to be the case and I am dealing with extreme conditions. I think it must also depend on the texture of the euro SS. I had a big problem with Vichy Fluide sweating off so maybe the LRP fluide (I think that's what you use, isn't it?) has similar problems. If I use one that adheres well even when I'm outside all day I'll only re-apply once to some parts where I tend to rub it off (mouth) and/or oil it off (nose) half-way through the day and I'm covered. I've had two successful seaside trips in Greece and Southern China and found the Avene works great this way. I am finding the Bioderma adheres equally well as Avene, but the texture and look is much more tolerable - no rigorous testing yet though. I'd recommend giving them a go. My only quibble is I have a very slight pastiness with the two I have sampled, but the AKN is waiting at the post office for me so I'm hoping for an SS HG moment in the very near future.
Molly |
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Sat Sep 23, 2006 4:14 pm |
Thanks, Molly please let me know about the AKN. I find I could easily use LRP in Greece without getting oily. In Canada, it's a different story-maybe because I use make-up in Canada. It's also humid here whereas Greece, although hot, is dry. Although my face didn't tan in Greece (maybe a little-my body did get dark but I'm too lazy to reapply sunscreen there )my pigmentation areas did stand out more. I hate it! I guess that's to be expected though. I just have to 'think' sun, and they get darker. Because of this, I should have reapplied. Mind, this year wasn't as bad as in previous years. I always use LRP in Greece, so I can only attribute this to diligent use of C serum, photolagen & prevage md. |
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Sat Sep 23, 2006 5:07 pm |
[quote="Molly"]
Quote: |
Just wanted to add, the euros may be stable (they don't break down) but they still have to
Honestly Marina, I don't find that to be the case and I am dealing with extreme conditions. I think it must also depend on the texture of the euro SS. I had a big problem with Vichy Fluide sweating off so maybe the LRP fluide (I think that's what you use, isn't it?) has similar problems. If I use one that adheres well even when I'm outside all day I'll only re-apply once to some parts where I tend to rub it off (mouth) and/or oil it off (nose) half-way through the day and I'm covered. I've had two successful seaside trips in Greece and Southern China and found the Avene works great this way. I am finding the Bioderma adheres equally well as Avene, but the texture and look is much more tolerable - no rigorous testing yet though. I'd recommend giving them a go. My only quibble is I have a very slight pastiness with the two I have sampled, but the AKN is waiting at the post office for me so I'm hoping for an SS HG moment in the very near future.
Molly |
I thyink I have found my HG in the Bioderma AKA.
I am using the Vichy one on my neck and am having the Bioderma one sent to me.
I loved to feel of it on my skin - plus, it's a 100mL bottle so it cheaper than a lot of the SS. |
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Sun Sep 24, 2006 3:48 am |
Marina
You know at least two (or 3) other people have said using the LRP allowed their hyperpigmentation or melasma to get worse. One was Sharky (or maybe Bushy), and then a couple of less well known (to me at least, I'm terrible with people's names ) users have mentioned in other threads at various times. It stuck in my mind because it really shouldn't happen theoretically.
Others, of course, swear by it.
Just picked up the AKN and I'll be giving it it's first spin around town tomorrow Texture's nice, but I need daylight to check the colour situation. |
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Sun Sep 24, 2006 6:29 am |
Molly I have been researching Mexoryl SX and XL a little and I have my doubts about them. I will not go into details as I am still looking for answers but I really am not so sure it is as great as everyone thinks..... |
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Sun Sep 24, 2006 7:04 am |
Sounds most intriguing Theresa
Does that cover the Tinosorbs too because my feeling is they work? |
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Sun Sep 24, 2006 7:09 am |
At this point I really don't have doubts about the Tinosorbs like I do for the Mexoryls. |
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Sun Sep 24, 2006 8:54 pm |
No HG moment I hate ALL sunscreens. |
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Sun Sep 24, 2006 9:42 pm |
... I say we all start wearing hats. Great big hats. |
_________________ 25, very fair, dry/sensitive, mild rosacea, otherwise good skin! |
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Sun Sep 24, 2006 10:53 pm |
TheresaL - I'm interested in what you're saying about Mexoryl because I buy LRP for my husband who is very fair and has had pre-cancerous lesions removed from his face in the past. Maybe I should buy Avene for him too, although I have to say it's much harder to get than LRP. The last sunscreen order I placed withwww.beautynet.com took weeks to arrive -- the LRP was in stock but not the Avene! I'm going to switch back towww.garden.co.uk. next time I reorder.
Anyway, thanks Theresa for the heads-up. I know how thoroughly you look into things like this and I trust your judgement. Even though I've got my husband trained to wear sunscreen, he's outdoors more than I am, and of course sunscreen doesn't block all of the rays. I worry about him getting skin cancer someday...
For some reason, I assumed LRP would offer him better protection. I use Avene only because I always wear at least some makeup. I can't use Avene Lait SPF50+ because it's just too thick and white and feels heavy on my face. But I think I'll get some for my husband though since he's such a risky phototype and the Lait, in my experience, is the most heavy-duty formula. I can handle the Emulsion, Spray and Creme (all SPF50+), and I have to say that after wearing sunscreen for almost 25 years, I'm used to the oiliness!
In fact, now that I'm using Jane Iredale pressed base, I really like the dewy finish I get as a result (I've been using Emulsion during the summer, which is the least oily of the 3 formulae). I don't even use JI Absence to soak up the sunscreen oil -- I just brush on some of the pressed base and it tones down the shine enough for me. Fortunately, the Bisque color is a perfect match and I haven't experienced the kind of application problems some others complain about when using it with oily sunscreen. Now I only hope MMU doesn't interact negatively with Avene because my skin looks like porcelain. I could never stand wearing liquid base before -- this has been a breakthrough for me.
I wish EDS sold Avene, since I also like some of their other products. |
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Sun Sep 24, 2006 11:42 pm |
Emma2006 wrote: |
I thyink I have found my HG in the Bioderma AKA.
I am using the Vichy one on my neck and am having the Bioderma one sent to me.
I loved to feel of it on my skin - plus, it's a 100mL bottle so it cheaper than a lot of the SS. |
Emma
I think a few people said that they liked the texture of the Bioderma, but it is suitable for using with make up? I want to get a ss that I can use with make up on. |
_________________ 53, normal/oily skin, concerns: wrinkles/lines/bags under eyes |
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