stange ? about B&W cats
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enjoys freebies · Thu Nov 02, 2006 8:14 am Quote

Has anybody ever noticed that there's never a B&W cat with a white back and black belly, while the converse is often the case. I don't understand that. You can have a completely black cat, so why not a black-bellied cat??! hmm

I don't even think that I have seen a B&W cat with black patches on its belly. Or am I mixing with an unrepresentative crowd??! Laughing

enjoys freebies · Thu Nov 02, 2006 10:10 am Quote

I've never thought about it... but I've never seen a white backed, black belly cat either! My FIL has a black/white cat. His belly is white, back is black... My parents have a black cat with a couple white splotches, but they're very small spots.

Must be something with genetics...

enjoys freebies · Thu Nov 02, 2006 10:33 am Quote

It's crazy though because genetics are usually selected for or against and I don't understand why one can't have a black belly since black cats exist. The only thing I can think of is that if you're a B&W cat, you'll try and keep your belly white so that you don't overheat... What about a white belly with black spots though....

Thinking further, any mixed colored cat I know, ends up with pale colors on its belly (calico sp?, grey and white, oranage and white)

This is a DEEP thought that I am having today! Laughing

Has anybody else thought of this?

enjoys freebies · Thu Nov 02, 2006 12:02 pm Quote

Here's a guess:

Most wild cats have their darker markings and patterns on their backs and legs. I would think that this is their camoflauge and/or their adornment to attract mates, as their underbellies are not really seen when they are out and about.

The lighter underside might just be arbitrary, however, big cats do show their bellies when they are showing submission while at play, so the lighter belly color might serve as a signal for learning behaviors for cubs

I know that modern domesticated cats come with all sorts of different markings, but I can't help but think that what you point out is linked to their bigger cousins.

Procreation and camoflauge are toward the top of the list of necessities of survival, so I imagine there is a very strong genetic component in play here.

Maybe? I don't know -- I just watch alot of Animal Planet Razz

-- Bee

enjoys freebies · Thu Nov 02, 2006 8:08 pm Quote

Since we're talking domesticated cats here, they were probably either intentionally bred this way or this was just a stochastic event.

I know for dogs (for example)

There's the B and b alleles.

Having BBAA makes you a black dog, a BbAa makes you "chocolate" with points on the tips of the nose, eye rims and ears (More melanin just naturally deposits here)black, bbAa blonde with darker nose, rims, and ears and bbaa all blonde.

Something like that...I think I have the allele names wrong :P

Anyways, it could just be that this is the same way that cat coat color is determined as well...

That there isn't a gene for where color is deposited, but just how much is deposited and it tends to be deposited on the belly the least, so the belly will never be darker than the dorsal color.

You'd have to see if spot location was heritable between parent and child generations, and I'm not sure if it is.

Another possibility is that this did occur naturally, and because of whatever reason that population was small, the gene for it was recessive and just by chance it was bred out of existance (Like how cheetahs are extremely genetically similar to each other). This probably happened way way way back in time and it has mutated again.

I'm sure there are lots more reasons.

In the case of wild cats, I know that in snakes the belly color had no effect on fitness (proportion of offspring left behind as compared to other individuals), but it was tied to the same genes (one gene can have a multitude of effects) that was being selected on, and because of that the belly colors were one way, because it correlated with something else which natural selection was occuring on.

And also depending on how many genes controlling the trait, it might not be a continuous trait.

enjoys freebies · Fri Nov 03, 2006 5:54 am Quote

I have been thinking the same along the "how much" color, edenfield. I've seen cats where the base of the hair is white and slowly grades to grey in that case. Cat color is further complicated by X-chromosome inactivation (hence female calico).

I haven't seen spot location being inherited (at least 1 generation). Even the cat that was cloned ended up with different color markings. So other factors must be at play.

I read somewhere that cats son't see color - just shades. So, maybe a white belly and/or unmarked belly in the case of a domesticated cat could be useful for recognizing submission/playfulness.

enjoys freebies · Fri Nov 03, 2006 10:10 pm Quote

Agent OO-CAT wrote:

Has anybody ever noticed that there's never a B&W cat with a white back and black belly, while the converse is often the case. I don't understand that. You can have a completely black cat, so why not a black-bellied cat??! hmm

I don't even think that I have seen a B&W cat with black patches on its belly. Or am I mixing with an unrepresentative crowd??! Laughing

Oh for crying out loud Embarassed

Do you know how many people you have made go flip their cats over like a flapjack and check for colours. I just call my kitty my little Rorschach test Think

enjoys freebies · Sat Nov 04, 2006 8:04 pm Quote

Rufus, can you flip your cat over like a flapjack? I'd be lucky if I got out alive doing that to my cat (yes, she's a black and white)...

enjoys freebies · Sat Nov 04, 2006 10:16 pm Quote

... and to add to Edenfield ...

The gene for the color 'orange' is carried on the X chromosome. So is 'black'.

That's why all calico (black, orange, white) cats are females.

And I can't remember exactly why - but orange tabbies are 99% going to be male.

enjoys freebies · Sat Nov 04, 2006 10:19 pm Quote

I searched through Cat of The Day and found Elliot - he has a mostly black belly:
http://catoftheday.com/archive/2006/September/14.html

My Kitty has a very symmetrical tuxedo, like a little penguin. She probably wishes she was reverse in this heat, her back gets so hot when she's outside! She is super submissive and can easily be flipped like a flapjack. I can brush her teeth, clean her ears, clip her nails, even glue on little plastic pink nail caps and she won't bite or claw me.

enjoys freebies · Sun Nov 05, 2006 12:16 am Quote

Agent OO-CAT wrote:

Rufus, can you flip your cat over like a flapjack? I'd be lucky if I got out alive doing that to my cat (yes, she's a black and white)...

Why, yes I can. I love her dearly but she is rather simple. Anxious

I do use the element of surprise. That, and I clip her claws religiously. Silenced

enjoys freebies · Sun Nov 05, 2006 12:28 am Quote

Rjez wrote:

And I can't remember exactly why - but orange tabbies are 99% going to be male.

I was going to mention the orange tabbies too. I don't know why they're mostly males. My orange tabby was the only male in his litter and all his sisters are black cats. Weird, eh? I do have a co-worker who has an orange tabby and it's female.

enjoys freebies · Sun Nov 05, 2006 3:54 am Quote

freefall2 wrote:

I searched through Cat of The Day and found Elliot - he has a mostly black belly ...
My Kitty has a very symmetrical tuxedo, like a little penguin. She probably wishes she was reverse in this heat, her back gets so hot when she's outside! She is super submissive and can easily be flipped like a flapjack. I can brush her teeth, clean her ears, clip her nails, even glue on little plastic pink nail caps and she won't bite or claw me.

OMG! I LOOOOOVVVVVEEEEEE Elliot! He's soooo cute! Freefall2, your kitty sounds like a sweet little dream - my big cat is like Agent 00-Cat's cat - if I flipped her like a flapjack, I'd draw back a bloody stump! However, I must admit to being able to do what I call "feline relocation" (which is moving the cat from my favorite sitting spot that they always take the minute I move, to another spot) using the "spatula technique" (where I take the undersides of both lower arms, slide them under the cat in an inverted "V" formation so the cat's weight is well-distributed, gently lift and move the cat to a new spot, then slide my arms out from under the animal - EXACTLY like a spatula). But, if I added a "flip" in there, I'd lose a limb!

Even my little one, who is a total sweetheart, would rip my skin off if I tried ANY of what you can do to your cat on her. She starts crying if I try to clip her nails even if I'm holding the clippers a foot away from her! I canNOT imagine the pints of blood I would lose if I tried to put nail caps on either of them - so I am left to bear their destruction on my new Crate & Barrel microsuede sofa, chair AND ottoman, all 3 of which they have clawed up. *Sigh!* Sad

BTW, both my kitties are black and both have a few symetrically scattered white hairs on the lower part of their bellies.

enjoys freebies · Mon Nov 06, 2006 8:32 am Quote

OOOOHhhhhhh, thanks freefall2. So, you CAN have a mostly black belly. This has been a long standing puzzle for me!!!! Thanks for solving it.

MermaidGirl, I also use the spatula technique - I call it the forklift but I have to keep my arms rigid, not be too fast nor too slow etc for it to work.

I have never clipped a cat's claws. Perhaps if I had them from kittenhood, I'd try. I had a hard enough time giving a pill to my cat. I had to use the roll in the towel/sausage-like, sit on cat before forcing mouth open and then use copious amounts of tuna as bribe later. By the end of the course, it was getting so hard to grab her that I ended up crushing the pill, making al ittle paste and smearing it on her back. She then HAD to eat it! Bad Grin

enjoys freebies · Mon Nov 06, 2006 10:05 am Quote

Agent OO-CAT wrote:

By the end of the course, it was getting so hard to grab her that I ended up crushing the pill, making al ittle paste and smearing it on her back. She then HAD to eat it! Bad Grin

What a great idea! I'll keep that in mind if I ever have a hard time getting Kitty to take a pill. I can get her to do anything but eat something she isn't interested in. I've been switching her over to raw food over the past month or so and I still can't get her to chomp on bones so I'm having to grind up eggshells and hide them in her favorite canned food every once in a while so she gets enough calcium. When I put something on her plate that she isn't into she gives a snooty little shake of her left paw, as if she stepped in something gross and walks away from the plate. My cat eats better than most people on this island. Her favorites are lobster and filet mignon!

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