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Sun Nov 30, 2008 11:53 pm  |
It just ocurred to me that the ZO Growth Factor Serum I am using contains Argireline. Am I correct in assuming that this could screw up my Facial Exercise results, meaning that I will not get as much out of it?  
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| Argireline is the prime example of a neurotransmitter inhibitory peptide. It is a hexapeptide ( 6 amino acids) that works by competitive inhibition at the neuromuscular junction by preventing the formation of the SNARE complex. It has been shown to decrease the strength of muscle contractions in vitro and in vivo. Clinical studies show marked improvement in wrinkle depth and skin roughness in patients using this cream. |
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No longer answering PM's due to numerous weird messages. |
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Mon Dec 01, 2008 4:13 am |
| Argireline is believed to relax the muscles, so it might prevent you from being able to contract them as much, but I would say experiment and see what works for you personally. You might find that you can feel a full contraction happening with the cream than without. |
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Mon Dec 01, 2008 5:02 am |
Bethany raises an excellent point here that I really wanted to talk about and so want to use this opportunity re facial volume and fat. I also would ask that people don't repost it elsewhere (as some one has been taking some of my posts from a different forum and reposting to others and answering questions with answers that were originally done to different questions) and I really want to help people here and somes there are a number of factors that can be involved in a particular scenario and although the answer might be intended to be helpful it might not..
With facial fat loss, there are so many factors involved. To give a little snapshot and explain the process, lets break it down.
When a facial muscle starts to lose its proteins (which fill the individual muscle fibres and thus give it its size), this starts off a whole chain reaction in the face. Elastic fibre is the next thing that goes, and when that goes the skin becomes slack (as the skin and muscles are not really being engaged fully or worked). Then the subcutaneous fat comes into the equation, as this is stored between the fibers of the elastin, collagen and to some degree within the muscles themselves (not just on the face, but also throughout the body).
This is where programs like FlexEffect and other resistance facial muscle techniques use resistance. As you engage the muscle, and completely activate it, you keep the muscle (and also the tissue surround it) strong, and highly elastic (and as a result it keeps needing proteins) and it will continue to need the elastic fiber (for the movements and massage etc) and thus it will continue to store subcutaneous fat. So when you start to rebuild muscle, you are encouraging the body to replace elastic fiber, collagen and also subcontaneous fat.
When a persons face starts to fill out after a time with FlexEffect, its not just muscle that your looking at - that fullness is made up of everything that had previously begun to leave
So when a person has botox, they do look great for a while, but can you see that as the muscle is not longer needing its proteins, this starts of the domino's falling process and as a result the loss of elastin, and also the subcutaneous fat. I am not completely against botox (and realise there are some actually really wonderful things its helpful for like hyperhydrosis etc) but when its used on the face..... I don't think its widely known what exactly it does and the longer term effects of having it. |
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Mon Dec 01, 2008 5:36 am |
I don't want to sound negative and argumentative here - I'm doing facial exercises and just about everything else I can to stave off the dreaded sagging. However, I am fast approaching 59 and I just don't believe that I'm going to be able to get back the facial fullness and elasticity that my face had in its youth. Maybe if I had of started doing the exercises when I was in my 20s it wouldn't be such an uphill battle. But with all due respect, I really don't see how you can stop the aging process, especially after menopause has set in. Which, of course, brings in the problem of the lack of estrogen and the detrimental affect that has on the body.
As we age, our bodies lose definition and tone. My husband has been on a fitness campaign lately and has been working out at the gym. His fitness trainer has told him that he will never regain bulging muscles and the strength that he once had in his arms - he is simply too old. I just feel that this is also the case for my face. Please feel free to encourage me - I admit to being a bit cynical about facial exercise, but I am trying!
Also, re the Argireline, I've used creams containing this ingredient and have never noticed any atrophy of muscle movement. I don't believe that any topical can freeze muscle action and can't imagine that it would inhibit the benefit of facial exercise. But that's the cynic in me talking again. |
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Mon Dec 01, 2008 5:50 am |
Keliu
Sure I understand where your coming from, and its impossible for any of us to stop the clock, and aging is actually a great thing but a lot of the time the things that are highlighted to us about aging are incorrect and not actually about aging at all but simply about our bodies being overchallenged or showing us that something isn't working.
Many of the so called aging things we often hear spoke about, we are not completely defenceless against and I think this is where facial exercises are really a great tool, as they can really help people out, but they are not for everyone. I understand this now better than before and used to be on a mission to get everyone exercising their faces. They don't always deliver full results immeidately, and it is time consuing and a learning process, which is one reason many people don't do them - and I understand this entirely.
I am no expert on Menopause at all (and thankfully its not something us guys have to go through) but I have worked with enough women who have had successful results connected with changing their nutrition and diet, but there are probably many ways of getting a person to perfect balance (thats right for them and their particular bodies).
I'm just one for empowering people on their journeys and I really do believe facial exercises will help. They can't turn back the clock, but they can make your facial tissue healthy, strong and as a result if that effects your appearance giving you a healthy and toned looking face - so much the better!
Whatever route you choose I wish you success on your journey!
Sean
| Keliu wrote: |
I don't want to sound negative and argumentative here - I'm doing facial exercises and just about everything else I can to stave off the dreaded sagging. However, I am fast approaching 59 and I just don't believe that I'm going to be able to get back the facial fullness and elasticity that my face had in its youth. Maybe if I had of started doing the exercises when I was in my 20s it wouldn't be such an uphill battle. But with all due respect, I really don't see how you can stop the aging process, especially after menopause has set in. Which, of course, brings in the problem of the lack of estrogen and the detrimental affect that has on the body.
As we age, our bodies lose definition and tone. My husband has been on a fitness campaign lately and has been working out at the gym. His fitness trainer has told him that he will never regain bulging muscles and the strength that he once had in his arms - he is simply too old. I just feel that this is also the case for my face. Please feel free to encourage me - I admit to being a bit cynical about facial exercise, but I am trying! |
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Mon Dec 01, 2008 6:38 am |
| well, there is always sculptra to help fill in the divets or hollows in your face.Its not a filler ; it stimulates your body to produce more collagen and fill in the area.I have seen amazing results with that product,very rejuvenating but very expensive! |
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light_mcfee
New Member
 
Joined: 01 Dec 2008
Posts: 4
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Mon Dec 01, 2008 7:59 am |
| sports may postone the time. |
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Mon Dec 01, 2008 7:48 pm |
The point Sean makes reminds me of the bodies ability to respond to the demands placed upon it and the ability to reset itself in a place of balance (Homeostatis).
In dentistry - my background - when you don't use the bone holding in your teeth by chewing, etc (or lose your teeth more likely) the bone (maxilla or mandible - jaw) due to lack of use will remodel and slowly resorb. This is why those with dentures often need them religned. The denture no longer fits because the bone has changed due to lack of pressure/use/demand placed upon it.
The skin apparently responds the same way to massage and exercise - like the body in general. It will toughen, build, etc in accordance to the demands placed upon it. In terms of Body Physiology it makes perfect sense. |
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Mon Dec 01, 2008 7:51 pm |
Or if you have a lot of money you can use Sculptra....  Or both! |
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Tue Dec 02, 2008 12:21 am |
| Keliu wrote: |
I don't want to sound negative and argumentative here - I'm doing facial exercises and just about everything else I can to stave off the dreaded sagging. However, I am fast approaching 59 and I just don't believe that I'm going to be able to get back the facial fullness and elasticity that my face had in its youth. Maybe if I had of started doing the exercises when I was in my 20s it wouldn't be such an uphill battle. But with all due respect, I really don't see how you can stop the aging process, especially after menopause has set in. Which, of course, brings in the problem of the lack of estrogen and the detrimental affect that has on the body.
As we age, our bodies lose definition and tone. My husband has been on a fitness campaign lately and has been working out at the gym. His fitness trainer has told him that he will never regain bulging muscles and the strength that he once had in his arms - he is simply too old. I just feel that this is also the case for my face. Please feel free to encourage me - I admit to being a bit cynical about facial exercise, but I am trying!
Also, re the Argireline, I've used creams containing this ingredient and have never noticed any atrophy of muscle movement. I don't believe that any topical can freeze muscle action and can't imagine that it would inhibit the benefit of facial exercise. But that's the cynic in me talking again. |
It's true, if you don't use/exercise your muscles by age 30 then they start to deteriorate, by age 40 the muscles lost will never come back. Thats why you see the skinny arms and legs of older people and the not so skinny bellies. Also people don't eat nearly enough protein to sustane their muscle mass. They choose carbs instead.  |
_________________
47, former sunworshipper, skincare addict, oily T-zone, fair skinned, love Vita A, some hyperpigmentation, microneedler. |
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Tue Dec 02, 2008 5:22 am |
| Frankly there does come a certain time when you may need plastic surgery.I know I did when I was 51 3 yrs ago. I am very glad I did I caught it early before it got really bad...now I want to maintain what I have with exercises. |
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Tue Dec 02, 2008 12:34 pm |
| Keliu wrote: |
I don't want to sound negative and argumentative here - I'm doing facial exercises and just about everything else I can to stave off the dreaded sagging. However, I am fast approaching 59 and I just don't believe that I'm going to be able to get back the facial fullness and elasticity that my face had in its youth. Maybe if I had of started doing the exercises when I was in my 20s it wouldn't be such an uphill battle. But with all due respect, I really don't see how you can stop the aging process, especially after menopause has set in. Which, of course, brings in the problem of the lack of estrogen and the detrimental affect that has on the body.
As we age, our bodies lose definition and tone. My husband has been on a fitness campaign lately and has been working out at the gym. His fitness trainer has told him that he will never regain bulging muscles and the strength that he once had in his arms - he is simply too old. I just feel that this is also the case for my face. Please feel free to encourage me - I admit to being a bit cynical about facial exercise, but I am trying!
Also, re the Argireline, I've used creams containing this ingredient and have never noticed any atrophy of muscle movement. I don't believe that any topical can freeze muscle action and can't imagine that it would inhibit the benefit of facial exercise. But that's the cynic in me talking again. |
Keliu, I feel your pain.. I'll be 59 on Jan 1st. You are right, we will never get back the firmness and elasticity we had in our youth, for that matter nobody will... The aging process moves on, until our toes turn up .. 
I have two goals as follows;
1. To be the best damn 59 year old I can be.
2. Never go to a Plastic Surgeon, or get any fillers.. (I'm so not saying it's a bad thing, it's just not what I want.) I'm also not afraid to grow old gracefully, and don't have a burning desire to look 30 when I'm 60 ..
You are sooo right about menopause. For me the worst effects (looks wise) started a few years into it.. (I'm just happy I never looked my age prior, because it sure has caught up in the last 4 or 5 years.) I don't take hormone replacement, so don't know if that helps.
As far as the facial exercises go, I think if women in our age group and situation, go into it with realistic goals, we can definitely make improvements, rather than just let nature take it's course..
My goals in respect to facial exercise are these;
1. Strengthen the muscles as much as possible, and use massage daily to increase circulation + and increase blood flow..(Massage and 3 hours of aerobic exercise per week will build the collateral circulation (new blood vessels!) to nourish our skin and muscles.)
2. I would like to see a firmer/stronger jawline, neck and cheeks. (But I never had great cheeks to begin with, so the chipmunk look is not what I'm going for.)
3. The main goal for me really is too keep what I have for as long as possible, and if a little 'build' comes as well, I'll consider myself a success! |
_________________
♥I'm flattered by all the lovely PM's, but I don't get here much these days. Please don't be afraid to post your quearies to other DIY members who will be glad to help you (or sell you their wares..lol) Still happy with LED, dermarolling and a DIY antioxidant regime. Peace & Hugs to all.♥ |
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Tue Dec 02, 2008 1:00 pm |
After watching a video link that Kassy posted on Ageless thread, I noticed another video which is pretty much demonstrates kiss the ceiling exercise that has been discussed on this thread: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QZkEdPotnDE&NR=1
It is possible to do this exercise with various counts, repetitions, and adding side wise motions. |
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Tue Dec 02, 2008 1:56 pm |
| Kassy_A wrote: |
| Keliu wrote: |
I don't want to sound negative and argumentative here - I'm doing facial exercises and just about everything else I can to stave off the dreaded sagging. However, I am fast approaching 59 and I just don't believe that I'm going to be able to get back the facial fullness and elasticity that my face had in its youth. Maybe if I had of started doing the exercises when I was in my 20s it wouldn't be such an uphill battle. But with all due respect, I really don't see how you can stop the aging process, especially after menopause has set in. Which, of course, brings in the problem of the lack of estrogen and the detrimental affect that has on the body.
As we age, our bodies lose definition and tone. My husband has been on a fitness campaign lately and has been working out at the gym. His fitness trainer has told him that he will never regain bulging muscles and the strength that he once had in his arms - he is simply too old. I just feel that this is also the case for my face. Please feel free to encourage me - I admit to being a bit cynical about facial exercise, but I am trying!
Also, re the Argireline, I've used creams containing this ingredient and have never noticed any atrophy of muscle movement. I don't believe that any topical can freeze muscle action and can't imagine that it would inhibit the benefit of facial exercise. But that's the cynic in me talking again. |
Keliu, I feel your pain.. I'll be 59 on Jan 1st. You are right, we will never get back the firmness and elasticity we had in our youth, for that matter nobody will... The aging process moves on, until our toes turn up ..
I have two goals as follows;
1. To be the best damn 59 year old I can be.
2. Never go to a Plastic Surgeon, or get any fillers.. (I'm so not saying it's a bad thing, it's just not what I want.) I'm also not afraid to grow old gracefully, and don't have a burning desire to look 30 when I'm 60 ..
You are sooo right about menopause. For me the worst effects (looks wise) started a few years into it.. (I'm just happy I never looked my age prior, because it sure has caught up in the last 4 or 5 years.) I don't take hormone replacement, so don't know if that helps.
As far as the facial exercises go, I think if women in our age group and situation, go into it with realistic goals, we can definitely make improvements, rather than just let nature take it's course..
My goals in respect to facial exercise are these;
1. Strengthen the muscles as much as possible, and use massage daily to increase circulation + and increase blood flow..(Massage and 3 hours of aerobic exercise per week will build the collateral circulation (new blood vessels!) to nourish our skin and muscles.)
2. I would like to see a firmer/stronger jawline, neck and cheeks. (But I never had great cheeks to begin with, so the chipmunk look is not what I'm going for.)
3. The main goal for me really is too keep what I have for as long as possible, and if a little 'build' comes as well, I'll consider myself a success! |
What a great post, Kassy. I'm with you ... I'm 45 and not afraid of growing older gracefully either (it helps that I have a husband who has always liked older women!), and plastic surgery is definitely not for me. So I've been following the various facial exercises threads and think it looks a good investment of my time and money (particularly interested to read of success stories in reversing the n/l folds - remarkable!). Will probably take the plunge in the new year.
Thanks to all on this thread for sharing your the info. |
_________________
Easy Eye Solutions, Frownies, Tanaka Massage, Retin-A. |
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Tue Dec 02, 2008 2:19 pm |
| graceless_lady wrote: |
[
What a great post, Kassy. I'm with you ... I'm 45 and not afraid of growing older gracefully either (it helps that I have a husband who has always liked older women!), and plastic surgery is definitely not for me. So I've been following the various facial exercises threads and think it looks a good investment of my time and money (particularly interested to read of success stories in reversing the n/l folds - remarkable!). Will probably take the plunge in the new year.
Thanks to all on this thread for sharing your the info. |
Thanks graceless!
Isn't it nice that we have so many things available now, to help slow down the dreaded hands of time?
Woo Hoo for the lovely DH who has good taste..  |
_________________
♥I'm flattered by all the lovely PM's, but I don't get here much these days. Please don't be afraid to post your quearies to other DIY members who will be glad to help you (or sell you their wares..lol) Still happy with LED, dermarolling and a DIY antioxidant regime. Peace & Hugs to all.♥ |
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Tue Dec 02, 2008 4:07 pm |
Argirelene is supposed to relax the tiny muscles under the skin, not the major musculature of the face. I have done a lot of public education over the years for the dermatology assn. up here. The derms are very opposed to facial exercise since pulling of the skin causes stretching and dynamic wrinkles. This is one reason why smokers get the upper lip lines, due to all that puckering. (The other cause being nicotine's effects on bloodflow in the capillaries.) Botox relaxes the muscles, which then cannot pull the skin and, over time, dynamic wrinkles disappear in Botoxed areas. That said, if people find facial exercises "work" for them, then stick with 'em! Oh yes and, whoever made the Nicole K. comment...now that forehead is SCARY 
Edited to add: Kassy, did you post something about N/L folds and exercise somewhere? I'd be really interested in seeing that as I have N/L trenches... |
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Tue Dec 02, 2008 5:12 pm |
Kassy, I'll be 59 on January 3rd - we're practically twins!!
I'm with you, I definitely want to be the best that I can be too - and your post also reflected my sentiments beautifully. However, in my case its "bring on the fillers"!
Are you still using your Vaculifter? I love mine - I use it every morning with OCM. It's just the easiest way to give your face a thorough massage and I'm sure I'm seeing some improvement to my neck.
I don't want to look 30 at 60 either, but what bothers me is not the actual aging process as such - it's that sad dour look that comes with sagging. If I smile I look 10 years younger, but in repose, my face looks maudlin - that's what irritates me the most. |
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Tue Dec 02, 2008 5:18 pm |
| Antonia wrote: |
| Kassy, did you post something about N/L folds and exercise somewhere? I'd be really interested in seeing that as I have N/L trenches... |
Here ya go Antonia, have a look at the 2nd exercise she does. Even I found it very easy to do!
http://www.essentialdayspa.com/forum/redirect.php?u=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sfm7l0I80EE&feature=related |
_________________
♥I'm flattered by all the lovely PM's, but I don't get here much these days. Please don't be afraid to post your quearies to other DIY members who will be glad to help you (or sell you their wares..lol) Still happy with LED, dermarolling and a DIY antioxidant regime. Peace & Hugs to all.♥ |
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Tue Dec 02, 2008 5:26 pm |
| Keliu wrote: |
Kassy, I'll be 59 on January 3rd - we're practically twins!!
I'm with you, I definitely want to be the best that I can be too - and your post also reflected my sentiments beautifully. However, in my case its "bring on the fillers"!
Are you still using your Vaculifter? I love mine - I use it every morning with OCM. It's just the easiest way to give your face a thorough massage and I'm sure I'm seeing some improvement to my neck.
I don't want to look 30 at 60 either, but what bothers me is not the actual aging process as such - it's that sad dour look that comes with sagging. If I smile I look 10 years younger, but in repose, my face looks maudlin - that's what irritates me the most. |
Indeed we are the bobsy twins .. And isn't it great we can share the joys and sorrows together?
I can use the Vaculifter everywhere but my cheeks and chin.. No matter how lightly I go, it just gives me terrible broken caps .. It does wonders for the dreaded vertical smokers lines on the upper lip though. (I can share how to see a result with that if anyone is interested!)
You are indeed right about the "sad dour look" at rest..  ......That's why we have to do everything we can to make each other laugh ..
And lets keep telling each other, we're not getting older, we're getting better ..  |
_________________
♥I'm flattered by all the lovely PM's, but I don't get here much these days. Please don't be afraid to post your quearies to other DIY members who will be glad to help you (or sell you their wares..lol) Still happy with LED, dermarolling and a DIY antioxidant regime. Peace & Hugs to all.♥ |
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Tue Dec 02, 2008 5:45 pm |
| Kassy_A wrote: |
| I can use the Vaculifter everywhere but my cheeks and chin.. No matter how lightly I go, it just gives me terrible broken caps .. :c |
Lulu is asleep in her usual spot on my desk and is snoring so loud I can barely concentrate!
Re the broken caps. I worry about this too because I have always suffered from very bad broken caps and have spent a fortune having IPL treatments to get rid of them. However, they always tend to re-appear. The Vaculifter lady states that it will actually help with them but that they will probably looks worse before they get better. I have also been applying Finacea Gel which is supposed to help Rosacea. Quite frankly though, my bottom line is that if I had to choose between sagging or broken caps, I'll choose the broken caps so I'm still going hell for leather with the Vaculifter.
Don't mean to go off topic here, but the Vaculifter is a very useful tool for massage which compliments very well with facial exercise. |
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Tue Dec 02, 2008 5:47 pm |
Kassy - thanks. That's very interesting. I just did a set of the bunny twitches and didn't feel any skin stretching. So that's one more to add to the pile of skin and hair and body to-dos. How many do you do a day? (If you don't mind my asking.) I guess I could do them along with Kegels to cut down time  |
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Tue Dec 02, 2008 6:02 pm |
| Antonia wrote: |
| Kassy - thanks. That's very interesting. I just did a set of the bunny twitches and didn't feel any skin stretching. So that's one more to add to the pile of skin and hair and body to-dos. How many do you do a day? (If you don't mind my asking.) I guess I could do them along with Kegels to cut down time |
I only just spotted that video today, and of course gave it a go.. I don't think you should feel stretching though. When I do it, I press down with the index fingers for resistance, and then just feel the muscles pulsing against the fingers.. She says to do 3 sets of 20 quickly.. (So don't hold, just keep twitching)
Ahhhh! The dreaded Kegels.....Now that's where I can really use a nip and tuck ..  I'm beyond kegels .. |
_________________
♥I'm flattered by all the lovely PM's, but I don't get here much these days. Please don't be afraid to post your quearies to other DIY members who will be glad to help you (or sell you their wares..lol) Still happy with LED, dermarolling and a DIY antioxidant regime. Peace & Hugs to all.♥ |
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Tue Dec 02, 2008 6:17 pm |
| Keliu wrote: |
| Kassy_A wrote: |
| I can use the Vaculifter everywhere but my cheeks and chin.. No matter how lightly I go, it just gives me terrible broken caps .. :c |
Lulu is asleep in her usual spot on my desk and is snoring so loud I can barely concentrate!
Re the broken caps. I worry about this too because I have always suffered from very bad broken caps and have spent a fortune having IPL treatments to get rid of them. However, they always tend to re-appear. The Vaculifter lady states that it will actually help with them but that they will probably looks worse before they get better. I have also been applying Finacea Gel which is supposed to help Rosacea. Quite frankly though, my bottom line is that if I had to choose between sagging or broken caps, I'll choose the broken caps so I'm still going hell for leather with the Vaculifter.
Don't mean to go off topic here, but the Vaculifter is a very useful tool for massage which compliments very well with facial exercise. |
Chi-Chi is a permanent resident on my lap, and also snoring away to beat the band .. (She doesn't care either, that her hot little 5 lb body, is giving me many more hot flashes than necessary ..
I plugged on with the Vaculifter 4 times in the hopes that the 'lady' was right, and I could get passed it....NOPE! But the LED faded them each time, so I'm back to only a few faint vessels showing now.
I agree with you that the 'V' would 'compliment' a facial exercise routine.. But I don't think it could take the place of manual massage... For example; When I did the Flex Effect massage technique I felt that my face really had a workout. Just that nice glowy, good feeling achiness... When I used the V, and fairly aggressively at that, I didn't feel any of that when I was done.. I had a rosy glow for a bit, and then only the dreaded thread veins.. |
_________________
♥I'm flattered by all the lovely PM's, but I don't get here much these days. Please don't be afraid to post your quearies to other DIY members who will be glad to help you (or sell you their wares..lol) Still happy with LED, dermarolling and a DIY antioxidant regime. Peace & Hugs to all.♥ |
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Wed Dec 03, 2008 3:51 am |
I got to chime in here, the Vaculifter definitely does compliment facial exercise, and its great for the connective tissue, but its a little difficult for it to work on the muscles underneath the connective tissue. I tried it out a couple of months back for flexers on the FE forum, and I loved it.
Having trained in connective tissue massage some time ago, which takes time and a lot of energy, this little device accomplishes almost the same results in half the time - which is brilliant. However, I really didn't feel it having an effect on the muscles, but I suppose thats where FE came in for me. FE really works the muscles, and then there is the heavy duty massage, but using the Vaculifter after that did give my face a great workout and it did look good (even for me!).
Sean |
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Thu Dec 04, 2008 6:48 pm |
I have a question. It's probably been asked before but I've looked and looked and can't see it.
What's the best exercise to do for the little cheek pooches you get by your mouth? |
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