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avalange
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Mon Jan 08, 2007 3:25 am      Reply with quote
Kandis,

Hi! Like Tosca and perhaps hundreds of others, I've been following this thread with interest. I only recently went to your website, and I must admit that I found it less than informative, and the photos misleading. But as I mentioned before, you can clearly see that the product works DESPITE the obvious traces of image tampering, so I'd really recommend just putting up the originals. It's VERY obvious, and most people are suspicious of photographs anyway, so it's best to err on the side of apparent objectivity.

I think you have to understand that my generation of cosmetic consumers (20s-30s) is, for the most part (there are exceptions), 100% concerned with ingredients. I will not purchase anything without having full ingredient disclosure. It is very important to me, especially since I and many others on this forum have an excellent working knowledge of how cosmetic chemistry works. Not an intimate knowledge, but a working one. One that, when we buy a product, allows us to make generally informed decisions about what we put on our skin. There are so many options out there right now; the cosmetics industry is really exploding at the moment. There are new lines and 'systems' every day, and almost all of them are eventually discussed and/or tested via this forum. That's the beauty of this forum AND of the internet--I was reading posts about sunscreen PPDs last night, and several members actually referred me to graphs and published medical studies, all of which I could access via the internet. I also did searches on ingredient lists of various sunscreens I've considering trying; I ruled a few out based on their compositions. Here's another example: I've read with great interest the eyelash potion threads, and immediately picked up on the fact that these proprietary formulae are proglandistin (sp?)-based--the same ingredient that, incidentally, is in eye drops for Glaucoma. I found that fascinating, and did a search, and found that many women are actually illegally obtaining the glaucoma medicine and placing it on their eyelashes. In other words, this information, however 'proprietary,' is easily deduced by consumers, and not only by EDS forum members.

Kandis, it is precisely BECAUSE we live in 'the information age,' in which most things we want to know are only a click away, that we want to know what's in your brews, and how they work. In this age, it is our right. I completely understand how publishing your formulae to the world would make you nervous; if I were you, I'd be worried about huge commercial companies copying your work. I totally comprehend that. But the reality is that every cosmetic company that is respected and that manufactures excellent products provides full disclosure of their ingredients. And from what I understand, it is the 'synergy,' i.e. the way in which these ingredients are put together, that is the 'proprietary' aspect--not the ingredients themselves--that guarantees their effectivity or their failure. Since you have a loyal following already and excellent customer service, you should be proud as well as secure in the fact that no matter who copies your work, everyone will want 'the original.' This has been more than evident in continuing high sales of prevage, freeze 24/7, kinerease, and others.

I'm not sure that this is the reason you are hesitant about revealing your ingredients, but as a skeptical consumer who wants to know EXACTLY what goes into and goes on my body, I can only assert that your system includes HA acid and a few really nice essential oils and maybe some peptides. In short, nothing to distinguish it from most other new products out there. Perhaps a change in the orientation of your marketing strategy is in order--in which you play up the synergistic aspect of the ingredients within each product and within the range. There are other, better ways to maintain an air of mystery about your product than withholding ingredients from your users. Even if you are in the process of altering certain aspects of your product, a tentative list of ingredients, along with a disclaimer, is the norm.

So, we are not trying at all to attack you, we are, perhaps, attempting to nudge you into being a bit more 'kandid' Smile about your products--which will, I think we all agree, just make your product stronger and more desirable. I would think that our criticisms--and I clarify--NOT about the product--but about the PRESENTATION of the product--should only help you in the long run.

The bottom line is: we all want full, gorgeous lips; you want us all to have full, gorgeous lips. I cannot comprehend why you wouldn't want your products to appeal to ever more customers!

Re: the carekate references, I did recently place an order with carekate for cuticle cream and hair oil. I've corresponded with her once in my life. She presents herself as a person of integrity on this forum, who really just wants to help. She provides total disclosure of all of her ingredients, including, sometimes, recipes about how to put them together. She just has a knack for it; we respect her and in the end, we want to support her 100%. I could easily obtain coconut oil and rosemary essential oils and a few other ingredients to make my own hair oil, but I personally love supporting burgeoning entrepreneurs, so I'd rather give my $$ to carekate, knowing full well that she is having fun and feeling very good about what she is offering us ladies.

I really hope you get the 'gist' of my message and that you continue to engage in these discussions on this forum. I think it can only be an enlightening experience for all of us. And I wish you the best of luck, really.

--avalange
p.s. I hope you also see that we are a very sharp group of consumers--a lot of us have doctorates, law degrees, or just plain high intelligence. We put our intellectual faculties to good use on this forum; I'm always impressed at how eloquent and intelligent my fellow EDS members are. We are, in essence, your toughest audience, and that's a good thing.

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http://newnaturalbeauty.tumblr.com/ 37, light-toned olive skin, broken caps, normal skin. My staples: Osea cleansing milk, Algae Oil, Advanced Protection Cream, Eyes & Lips, Tata Harper, Julie Hewett makeup, Amazing Cosmetics Powder, & By Terry Light Expert, Burnout, and daily inversion therapy and green smoothies!
Tangal
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Mon Jan 08, 2007 5:52 am      Reply with quote
Kandis and I exchanged a series of emails on January 2, after I received and started using her product. During that exchange I asked her many questions, which she did her best to address.

One of the many questions I asked her was:

"I understand from your booklet, one can do the NC/NG layers through the day, or the LG/NG layers. How do I know which I should use. I know you said my lips will tell me....but I can't really see any difference. Which will give me the better results?

What is the difference between the Gold and the Cream? Are they similar in function?

It would help if I could better understand the function of each product, since no ingredient information is available. Its hard for me to judge which would suit me better for each situation. "


I also asked her other questions about how to use her system, indications of when to use what, how often to use, how to use the system for maintance etc.

Part of her reply was to direct me back to her website and the partial ingredient listing there. She mentioned in email that I could find the info there, and she copied part of that web section onto my email, along with the link.

I thanked her for that information, not realizing it was only a partial listing at the time. After reading that information, I realized that it was incomplete.

I did not specifically ask for an ingredient listing in those words, though that is what I was asking. When I was directed to the site for that info, I went there to read it. Assuming it would be complete.

It was not. I again double checked all my packaging and containers and the site, in case I missed that information somewhere.

And at that point I saw that she was replying on this site to answer some of the exact questions that I had also asked her on email, which I did not have a reply to yet.

I saw other questions concerning product info, ingredients involved etc. and thought that this thread would cover that in better detail. But it also did not.

After re-reading my email I can see where I may not have been specific enough. But since Kandis and I were discussing many things about her product line at the time, I know/rememberd what I intended to say to her when I posted here. Not my exact words.

I guess in the process of addressing so many questions, I did not articulate well what I wanted to know, and it was overlooked. That may have been my fault for not again asking the question in more detail. After so many emails, I "thought" it had been asked. I guess it really was not.

I will email Kandis again, about ingredients, since my concerns were evidently unclear on my first email. Hopefully at this point we can resolve that concern.

I will not post that list here, as I can understand why a company would prefer that info not be posted online. But I will let you know if I do receive that info. Which will help me feel better informed. This should ease any concerns the L2K company may have in reguards to the info being posted “publicly” online.
catski
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Mon Jan 08, 2007 6:10 am      Reply with quote
KANDIS wrote:
If you can’t respect me for what I’ve accomplished after devoting 5 years of my life so that I can help other women, then neither of you deserve to be one of them.

KANDIS


Can I just clarify something? Is Lips2kiss a charitable organisation, a non - profit making set - up?
patrod
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Mon Jan 08, 2007 7:15 am      Reply with quote
So now that we have all heard from the self proclaimed intellectuals in the group. I would like to here from someone that has been using the system for a few months. Isn't that what this forum is for. I didn't think it was to insult someones marketing strategy
This place is a joke!
avalange
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Mon Jan 08, 2007 7:41 am      Reply with quote
patrod wrote:
So now that we have all heard from the self proclaimed intellectuals in the group. I would like to here from someone that has been using the system for a few months. Isn't that what this forum is for. I didn't think it was to insult someones marketing strategy
This place is a joke!


yes, i am an intellectual BY TRADE, thank you very much, and one day my current salary of $15,000 a year will be roughly double when I'm a full professor. I don;t see anything wrong with that. What I meant to convey is that I find this forum on the whole very stimulating and having high standards, and it's the contributors, and not necessarily the content, that keep it that way.

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loopylori
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Mon Jan 08, 2007 7:43 am      Reply with quote
I have been using this system for a few weeks. Whilst my lips don't appear any fuller yet they are much more hydrated & softer, they look & feel a zillion times better. I love this system no matter what the ingredients.
Since I have matured physically not mentally I have suffered with dry lips & was constantly applying various lip balms, moisture creams etc but nothing has ever helped like this system.

I am extremely happy with this and am going to repurchase. I like not having dry lips. I guess it's not the cheapest lip repair but for me it is worth every penny because my lips are becoming nice.

Can we stop the arguing now please ladies & agree to disagree. It's not a good start to the new year or very encouraging for new members to see a full scale war going on. That's not what EDS is about.

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scalawaggirl
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Mon Jan 08, 2007 7:43 am      Reply with quote
I'm back from vacation and have to say I'm rather surprised by the tone this thread has taken.

While I try to be an informed consumer and do read ingredient lists, I am also trusting enough to give my fellow forum members the benefit of the doubt when they share their experiences with a new product. I don't normally do a rush buy but wait to see how others are doing and if I believe it will help, I go ahead and try it, if interested.

Now, I've been using the system for about 1 month or so, perhaps a bit longer. I purchased a 2nd set to have one in my purse and one at home. My lips are absolutely improving and are already looking fuller. The lip colors are gorgeous, really do stay on well and I've gotten compliments on my lips, as well - posted in another thread.

Frankly, that's all I need to know that it works. While I appreciate the desire to breakdown a product to the nth degree, I don't understand the need to start hammering away at a vendor who has both provided a product that works and has been very generous with both support and samples. We use other products that don't list all of the ingredients (JM specifically) but I've chosen to ignore the mud stirrers and use the product, anyway - and NO, my eye color has not darkened as one of the posters claimed would possibly happen.

I feel that we can be informed but only to a degree. If all the ingredients were widely posted (I know Kandis is worried about copies), you ordered it and it didn't work, you'd still be in the same boat. With rave reviews, I've bought products that didn't work for me but I didn't start slamming the vendor or the rave posters. Some things just don't work for me.

Oh, and give me a break - I'm sure you've not all read the ingredient lists on every lip product in your makeup drawer! I know I never gave my pretty lipsticks a 2nd thought and now, I realize that I was smothering my lips! So, take my comments how you will but I have posted many pictures on this forum and do not Photoshop the comparisons. So there. Bad Grin

Here are a couple of shots with the lip color "Sonoma Sun".
Color is off as I was testing white balance:
Image
Image

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Tangal
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Mon Jan 08, 2007 7:49 am      Reply with quote
actually I personally DO read the ingrediants of every single one of my skincare and lip care products. Smile

I like to avoid certain ingrediants that are common in some lip products, so I do read the packages.

And I also read the ingrediants in all my skincare, lotions, shampoos etc.

Just ask my husband who recently got annoyed when he tried to buy aftershave and I kept taking each product out of the cart, because the irritant amount is to high. At which point he asked ME to pick out the aftershave so we could continue shopping. LOL
scalawaggirl
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Mon Jan 08, 2007 7:55 am      Reply with quote
Tangal wrote:
actually I personally DO read the ingrediants of every single one of my skincare and lip care products. Smile

I like to avoid certain ingrediants that are common in some lip products, so I do read the packages.

And I also read the ingrediants in all my skincare, lotions, shampoos etc.

Just ask my husband who recently got annoyed when he tried to buy aftershave and I kept taking each product out of the cart, because the irritant amount is to high. At which point he asked ME to pick out the aftershave so we could continue shopping. LOL


Then I stand corrected. Smile In that light and if that is an iron-clad requirement, perhaps it would be best to bypass this product line since I imagine some of the formulation will still be kept quiet. This doesn't phase me and I'm a very satisfied customer with steadily improving moist and juicy lips!

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avalange
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Mon Jan 08, 2007 7:57 am      Reply with quote
see, we are all different in our approach to skincare. I was only speaking on behalf of those who are ingredient-obsessed. Like I said before, I was not disputing results. And Scalawagirl, you look lovelier by the day!

--avalange

I did not mean to start or even stoke a war, I just meant to shed light on how our skeptical attitudes could possibly AID Kandis, eventually allowing her to embrace more customers. I personally will not buy something based on others' results; I need to know if the formulation contains ingredients that work for me.

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http://newnaturalbeauty.tumblr.com/ 37, light-toned olive skin, broken caps, normal skin. My staples: Osea cleansing milk, Algae Oil, Advanced Protection Cream, Eyes & Lips, Tata Harper, Julie Hewett makeup, Amazing Cosmetics Powder, & By Terry Light Expert, Burnout, and daily inversion therapy and green smoothies!
loopylori
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Mon Jan 08, 2007 7:57 am      Reply with quote
Scalawagirl,

Gorgeous pics as usual. I love that colour lippy on you, I hate it that any kind of red just makes me look awful. I have the napa wine & although a little dark for me thanks to the tip about mixing it with the LC I can now get it to the exact shade I like.

Nice to see you back.

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Mon Jan 08, 2007 7:57 am      Reply with quote
Kandis, by established, I just mean someone who has been here at least a few month, has posted on other threads, and in general, appears to truly be a consumer such as the rest of us. - Most anyone who has posted on this thread to date. I'm waiting for someone to say that L2K is reallly all it claims to be. I realize that, according to the system, it takes a couple of months to see full results. Scalawags' photos do look absolutely wonderful.

Avalange is much more diplomatic than I am, but I believe my concerns are very similar to hers. It is your marketing techniques and, in my opinion, evasion of questions that disturb me, not the comments that actual users have made or even the unusual process. Additionally, it is the inavailability of the ingredient list that I find disturbing, not what I may or may not suspect is in there.
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Mon Jan 08, 2007 8:28 am      Reply with quote
I do not use this product but have been keeping up with the thread. Very interesting. Smile Anxious to hear results a month down the road.

EDS members are awesome. There is nothing wrong with challenging if done in a respectful way. Actually, it is the customers right to ask questions. Debate is a good thing. If we keep an open mind we can learn so much from our members who take the time to learn all they can about a product.

Here is some information I found ladies:

http://www.cfsan.fda.gov/~dms/cos-lab4.html

Quote:
Ingredients. If the product is sold on a retail basis to consumers, even it it is labeled "For professional use only" or words to that effect, the ingredients must appear on an information panel, in descending order of predominance. [21 CFR 701.3]. Remember, if the product is also a drug, its labeling must comply with the regulations for both OTC drug and cosmetic ingredient labeling, as stated above.


I never liked the idea that Jan Marini's Lash Growth Serum did not tell that secret ingredient. After all...we were putting it on our eyes. But, I used it. Embarassed
Tangal
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Mon Jan 08, 2007 8:50 am      Reply with quote
This thread overall has alot of wonderful information, and opinions. And Hollywood and others have added some interesting reviews, comments and thoughts. I hope a good information exchange can be maintained.

It is one of the reasons I did decide to try the product line. Even though normally I would have waited longer. Yes I was skeptical, nothing wrong with that.

I often watch products for a while before I decide to buy them, and threads of this type help me a lot in my final purchase decisions.

So far I have not used the product long enough to add a review. But it does intrigue me, and I am sure others are in the same “boat” – so to speak

If this product is as good as its company claims, then the results will speak for themselves. And posts on this board and others should reflect that.
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Mon Jan 08, 2007 8:52 am      Reply with quote
Scallawaggirl,
Your lips look wonderful! We seem to be having the same sort of progress. Thanks so much for popping in and sharing your thoughts. Perhaps I'll figure out how to use the four, count em, four digital cameras in this household, and I'll share. Maybe by then I'll be established. Wink

Winnie,
Thanks for the link. I appreciate it and your reminder to be respectful. Name calling and intimations of such are unnecessary and counterproductive.

Kandis, no way no how do I find you or your product a scam. Thanks for answering all my questions and sharing your samples with me. I'm loving my lips and I look forward to seeing those new colors. Now, off to wait for the Revitalash..*gasp* and those pesky secret ingredients.

Kimberly
patrod
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Mon Jan 08, 2007 9:08 am      Reply with quote
Ok everybody. This is how I am going to evalutate how well this product works. These are my before pics. Notice the beginning of lines obove my lip. I am using Kandis' lip gloss, "Runway Goddess" that was given to me to try. The pics look kinda blurred because the camera is 2" from my face. I don't have photoshop. Maybe someone can clear these up with that program. I'll take like pics in about a month. Image
Image
Image
Tangal
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Mon Jan 08, 2007 9:16 am      Reply with quote
could you discribe the color Runway Goddess please? The images are large so its hard for me to tell. It looks pinkish?

If you email them to me I can crop and resize them for you, and probably make them a tad clearer - or you may be able to resize them just a bit on the site you have them posted on.

Many of therm such as photobucket etc. Have a resize option, under EDIT. Do the option for Websites, messageboards, forums.

It looks simular to what I may be looking for. But I don't want a bubblegummy color, rather a natural warmer pink.
patrod
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Mon Jan 08, 2007 9:16 am      Reply with quote
Oops, that last shot was taken about a year ago by my boyfriend screwing around with his camera phone. This is the first time I've downloaded anything from photobucket. I'm glad the lines showed up. I am using Kandis's Line eliminator too. Soo.....we will see!

Pat,
scalawaggirl
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Mon Jan 08, 2007 9:30 am      Reply with quote
Thanks, everyone for your nice comments. Smile I hope I didn't come across too strong but I'm a big fan of the Lip2Kiss line and try not to take a vendor's personality (unless rude) into account when considering how a product works. So, I will continue to use the system happily and fully expect dazzling results as depicted on the web site. For the record, I do not think they were photoshopped; the clarity is rather crappy and they look to me like candid shots. I have a fair amount of experience w/Photoshop and were I to edit them, they'd look a lot better!!! Smile

Wow, Patrod, I'm liking the looks of that Runway Goddess! I have so far:

Napa - too dark on me but works better w/Tam's mixing tip w/the lip cream. Nice shade done that way.

Sonoma Sun - love it. Perfect tone for warm skinned ladies.

Walk of Fame - lovely dark coral shade. I think this is the gloss as it does not "stick" like the first 2.

I'll be ordering a few new shades just for a change when Kandis posts them up on the site. I prefer the lip colors as I don't need a liner and they stick, stick, stick! BTW, my lips are not really that dry anymore except for the occasional times I don't drink enough water.

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patrod
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Mon Jan 08, 2007 9:42 am      Reply with quote
Tangal:

I'm not sure if that shade is a gloss or stain. Its quite dark when first applied but seems to soak in like a stain. When first applied is a definite mauve color but turns pinkish when it soaks in.
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Mon Jan 08, 2007 9:44 am      Reply with quote
hmmmm...mauve scares me. I can't do mauve. LOL

So its a cooler pink color then?
patrod
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Mon Jan 08, 2007 9:57 am      Reply with quote
Yes, it turns to a pink. Do you know anything about matrixl. I couldn't find much doing searches on-line.
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Mon Jan 08, 2007 10:00 am      Reply with quote
You mean Matrixyl? Or Matrixyl 3000 which I believe is in the line eliminater?

Yes I know some about it. A search on Matrixyl should give you the info you are looking at.

It used in a number of products that soften lines, usually at about 3% to 8% range.
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Mon Jan 08, 2007 10:01 am      Reply with quote
I too have Runway Goddess and I'm sitting here looking at it trying to figure out how to describe it. Hmm. Maybe a pink with a brownish tint? It's worked quite well for me Tangirl and I'm a brunette with blue eyes. I'm currently wearing BB in Warm Beige and and the past I've worn Prescriptives, most recently Real Gold.

kimberly
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Mon Jan 08, 2007 10:05 am      Reply with quote
okay pinky brown is good. And I wear warm beige tones or honey tones in foundation. So that may work.
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