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Thu Nov 23, 2006 9:38 pm  |
I am new to all these products I am using/will be using as soon as I receive them.
This is what I have:
1. Retin A 0.025%
2. BHA Lotion 2%/ph3
- for exfoliation
- possibly to push in Retin A deeper
- possibly to push in copper peptide deeper
3. Copper Peptide Serum
4. CeraVe Creme
5. Sunblock
When do I use what? In what combination and order?
I am so confused right now.
Does a bit of BHA push tretinoin and CP in deeper? If so, how do I use it for this purpose?
How do I use the BHA to get full exfoliation benefits?
This is what I think - please corredt me 
AM
- cleanse skin
- BHA as exfoliant
- CeraVe
- Sunblock
PM
- cleanse skin
- Retin A & CP serum blended with BHA to push
both in deeper (no exfoliating action due to
higher ph of CP)
OR
- Retin A, as soon as it is dry layer
- CP blended with a bit BHA lotion (as in
BioSkins CP with BHA added) to push both in
deeper (no exfoliating action due to higher
ph of CP)
Does this sound right?
Do I have to wait after putting on BHA lotion until I can add moisturizer? How long? I have to get up really early in the morning for work, so I hope its not necessary to wait long
Thank you sooo much Monica |
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Fri Nov 24, 2006 6:52 pm |
| Monica34 wrote: |
Does a bit of BHA push tretinoin and CP in deeper? If so, how do I use it for this purpose?
Retin A & CP serum blended with BHA to push
both in deeper (no exfoliating action due to
higher ph of CP) |
Where did you read this? If you're using a BHA lotion it might be a little different, but generally you should wait for BHAs to absorb and do their job, allowing the pH of your skin to return to normal before putting on more products. I might be wrong, but I've never heard of anyone using it to "push"...a lot of people use emu oil for that. |
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Fri Nov 24, 2006 6:57 pm |
Monicia, I applyed to your PM, but I am postinhg here also for you, incase you miss the other.
After Using Retin A or CP (Copper peptides) you can apply Emu Oil on top or a separate BHA (beta Hydroxy Acid) cream or lotion on top to push the RA or CP deeper into skin. This makes it go deeper, so it can also increase irritation at first. Not a beginner treatment until after you have used RA or CP for a while. But great to advance your results.
Both BHA and Emu oil penetrate easily into the skin pores, “drawing” or pulling/pushing other activities with them.
They are often aded to products in formulation to enhance penitration of the active ingrediants. But adding them as a seperate step is often even more effective, and allows you to enhance penitration of many skincare products. (depending on formulation)
If something is to irritating, like Copper. You can also apply Emu oil FIRST, then the copper. In this manner the fats in the Emu do not hamper the Copper penetration, but buffer it, so it is less irritating. But this will not draw or push it deeper. It mush be applied after for the push.
CeraVe will not push or pull. It does not penetrate into the pore as deeply as BHA or Emu. A moisturizer or AHA product sit on skin surface, and help “seal” the skin to lessen evaporation of water helping skin feel moist. This is good, as it is what a moisturizer does.
AHA (Glycolic acid) cannot absorb through skin oils, and it is to big a molecule to enter the pore as easily, which is why it does not sink into skin pores well. Its sits on skin surface, so it is a surface exfoliate. (BHA exfoliates mainly inside the pore lining, though some on the surface also)
Lactic Acid (also an AHA) does penitrate the oils, and into the pore better, but still not as well as BHA.
Pushing is desired for advanced use, AFTER you build up tolerance with daily surface use. Deeper penetration means more of the active ingredient is delivered to deeper skin layers, where new cells and collagen are grown. So it is good in that way. But because it now goes a bit deeper it can irritate skin more – so it is a step you work up to. Not a beginner step.
Side effects are simply more irritation, dryness, breakouts from irritation. If this occurs simply back off on the “push” step until you build up a tolerance. Or don’t do the push method.
You apply the BHA or EMU just like any lotion, just enough to cover skin lightly in a normal manner. You can dilute your Emu with distilled water or Hyrolonic acid to create a less greasy product.
You do not mix or blend the products together. You apply separately, so each absorbs first. This is more effective, If you mix them you have pH issues and formulation thickners etc to deal with. Then it can get complicated. Instead two seperate layers are easiest.
Retin A
Then CP
Then EMU or BHA
Just apply each after the first product has absorbed. Just a few moments to a few minutes.
If you do not want a push, simply wait 20 min or so after Cp or RA before using Emu, or dilute the Emu with another carrier oil (Jojoba, Squlene, etc. based on needs) or use another moisturizer lotion product, immediately after the CP or RA.
For complete exfoliate action – you
Wash Skin
Wait 30 min if pH is above 5.5 , or lower pH on skin with a dilute Apple Cider Vinegar water rinse. (I think I PMed you about that right? It can irritate though)
Apply your exfoliate next, either BHA, then AHA if they are both the same pH, and similar formula. Or use the steps of application based on formula type. Thin to thick.
(liquids, gels, serums, lotions, creams) Apply thin first, then thick IF they are the same pH.
If pH differs, Apply the low pH product first, then the high one next. If both are very close to the same. If they are drastically different, wait 30 min between each exfoliate.
If pH and formula differ, its trickier, and I need to know the exact products you are using first, and ingredients and pH.
After 30 minutes wait for the exfoliate action (one 30 min wait if applied together, two 30 min waits or 60 min total, if applied as two steps) – then do Retin A, then Copper, then Emu/BHA push – then Moisturizer lotion if you want to add it.
Or simply Do AHA one PM and BHA the Next PM. (assuming you do alternate nights, if you don’t do an exfoliate every night, just do Retin A alone, or Retin A and copper on some nights WITHOUT the Exfoliate Step.
So it looks like this:
Wash (wait 30 min if you need to wait for pH drop – or use dilute Vinegar water IF it does not irritate or dry your skin to drop pH to a lower level, meaning no 30 min wait after the wash step)
BHA wait 30 min
AHA wait 30 min (you can combine aha and bha in one step, one 30 min wait, if same pH )
Retin A – wait a few moments to a few minutes to absorb
Copper wait a few moments to absorb
Emu Oil or BHA lotion or cream to push (optional) – no wait
Moisterizer cream or lotion (only if needed, you probably will not need with Emu though)
OR
Night one
Wash (wait as above)
BHA (wait 30)
Retin A
Copper
Emu
Moisturizer
Night Two
Wash (wait as above)
AHA (wait 30)
Retin A
Copper
Emu
Moisturizer
Night Three
Wash (no wait)
No Exfoliate, no wait
Retin A
Copper
Emu
Moisturizer
You can also do copper on some night, and Retin A on others. It all depends on skin needs and what works with your schedule and skin, and what you are treating and how aggressive you are.
Waiting is only needed on the following things.
Wash/cleanser product IF the pH is over 5.5, and you have a pH sensitive product applied AFTER the wash. (an exfoliate for example)
Wait 30 min after an exfoliate like AHA or BHA, because they need a LOW pH to work well. Any higher pH product applied after them, will change the exfoliate pH so it will not work as well. So wait 30 min after an exfoliate before the next step.
If two exfoliates like AHA and BHA have the same pH (if both have 3.0 pH for example) then they can be applied together, with only ONE 30 minute wait, not two separate waits for each product. Since the pH is the same, applying one after the other will not damage the pH of either.
If you are not using an AHA, just ignore that.
The CeraVe has AHA, but we don’t know the pH or percent. So I personally don’t think its that effective as an exfoliate. If you want that to exfoliate, (if it can do so) it needs to be applied after cleansing, and AFTER the BHA 30 minute wait, not as a moisturizer. And it needs to be washed off before the Retin A.
Do apply products in thin to thick layers. You cannot apply a liquid over a lotion, because the thicker lotion will stop the thinner liquid from penetrating as well.
Paula’s Choice is fine, But get the right formula for your needs. Are you using it to exfoliate or to push? If you push, then it needs to be able to penetrate the product you are pushing. So a lotion needs to go on a lotion. You cannot really top a lotion with a gel or liquid. You can apply a lotion over a gel, liquid or serum however.
If you want the BHA product to exfoliate AND to push, and you get the lotion, then you will need to wipe it off before applying a CP Serum or Retin A lotion, because the lotion of the BHA can slow the penetration or the CP serum, or the Retin A lotion.
Remember – Thin to thick.
You are not bothering me, please feel free to ask. I would rather you ask and understand, then spend a lot of money on products, use them wrong and get no benefit. 
So Thin product to thick.
Low pH stays with low pH
And do not apply a high pH to a low pH while waiting for a low pH product to work. Nor apply a low pH product to high pH skin, because it will raise the pH of the low product, making it ineffective. So like pH with like. |
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Fri Nov 24, 2006 7:23 pm |
Thanks soooooooooooooooo much - you are such a blessing I dont know what I would do without you, really. I emailed the people at SkinBiology, but since they get so many questions, the answers are a bit too short and not complete. They are very nice and do reply though. I think they should make an easier overview on the usage of the products.
Anyways, I think Im getting it now
I didnt use the AHA after my Retin A anymore, and I have no irritation anymore It got quite pink two nites ago before I knew better. I put the AHA on in the morning ony now. I also will wait for thirty minutes from now before applying moisutrizer and sunblock.
CeraVe does not contain hydroxy acids as far as I know. Its just a great moisturizer with three ceramides, hyaluronic acid and very mild. I mix it with vaseline to make it richer. By itself it is too light for me now that its colder, and especially since using the Retin A.
This is the reply to an emil I received from Skinbio: They say CeraVe/any moisturizer will work as a pushing agent for the CP.
Retin A is supposed to be applied at night. However, we are now starting to recommmend that LacSal be applied at night as well.
So you might want to alternate their use...Or you can use LacSal during the day. There's no hard-and-fast rule about using it at night.
Any moisturizer will work as a penetrating agent for CPs.
Best Wishes,
-Skin Bio Team |
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Fri Nov 24, 2006 8:16 pm |
okay, sounds good then. I don't think all moisterizers will work "equally" well across the board to push, since their are formulation issues, particle size etc. involved.
But it certainly will not hurt, and you can always experiment with different moisterizers to see if some do better/worse for you. I personally find for me Emu seems to work best.
I was not familuar with CeraVie - for some reason I thought you said it had AHA. I must have mixed that up with some other PM I received - sorry. |
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Fri Nov 24, 2006 8:35 pm |
Tagal, how do I do a apple cider vinegar rinse in the AM after my cleansing?
Also, If I am only to use the BHA lotion in the AM (and later CeraVe and sunblock) how thorough do I have to wash?
I am treating my face, but also my decollete and breasts to keep the area firm and make it firmer with the use of CP.
I always wash my face with Johnsons "head To Toe Babywash" which I love. I get up very early in the am and shower at night.
Can I just wipe the decollete/chest with a wet wash cloth a few times before applying the BHA? Do you have to use a cleanser? |
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Sat Nov 25, 2006 4:42 am |
| Monica I replyed on PM for you. Let me know if you need further clarity. |
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Sat Nov 25, 2006 7:01 am |
CeraVe Creme
I am interested in it ,too
would it be greasy?
i know it produced by a special emulsification method
thanks |
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Sat Nov 25, 2006 7:50 am |
| I love CeraVe. Its light, not greasy at all. I thought the creme would be a bit heavy, but its NOT. I also tried the lotion which has no petrolatum added at all. Too light for me actually. In the summer I use the cream as is, and now that its colder, I actually add a bit extra Vaseline at night. |
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Mon Feb 15, 2010 4:49 pm |
| Hi Tangal - I know this is an awfully old post, but I am hoping you still check it because you seem extremely knowledgable about order of products. I am using similar products, only instead of retin a, I have retinol 1% psf nite which is a cream as opposed to the cp I use which is Skin Signals Serum (watery). I have the Exfol Serum which is 2% bha. Also, another add on if it is possible, I just purchased the Easy Eye Solutions Tuck Serum (puffy eyes, dark circles) and the Illuminating Cream (both apparently are suppose to be put on clean skin) like almost everything else I'm afraid. Thanks for your help. Lynn |
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born 1964, some raw & live foods - medium complexion - sinking eye area yet manage to still have bags, loose, sagging upper eyelids, 11s not as bad as my N/L & M/L, microneedling .5 & 1mm, led, massage, Vit C, A, CP very occasionally, HA, EES, DMAE, MATRIXYL |
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