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Fri Nov 24, 2006 5:29 pm  |
Is it true, that you should not use moisurizing creams and lotions on your skin, but only so called healing oils? I dont quite understand this - I copy pasted this Q & A with Dr.Pickard. I dont know what HA means. But I know that there has been so much tlak about using oils.
Dr. Pickart:
I'm struggling to understand the relationship of skin wetting to the aging of skin.
What I think I just figured out based upon following threads you comment on regarding HA--I'm almost in a panic because every product I use excluding yours has HA in it!
Okay--- is this a safe synthesis?
HA wets the skin barrier because it sucks up water from the skin.
When the epidermis (particularly the granulosum layer) registers the wet surface it responds by recognizing a breach in the skin barrier (wet skin lets bad things in).
So -- it kicks keratin production into high gear. It wants to send (dry) keratin to the surface to restore the integrity of the barrier.
This is a bad thing because keratinocytes (like all cells in the body) are limited in the number of times they can reproduce themselves.
When they reach that limit, they cease to exist. And as they grow closer to that limit, they slow down and produce substandard proteins.
This is the aging process.
So, when we use HA, we are speeding up the skin aging process by effectively killing off our defenses sooner rather than later.
Please help.
thanks,
Felecia
Dr. Pickart answered
This is complex but here it is.
1. HA sucks water out of the air and becomes wet. If you put dry HA on a dish, in about 30 minutes you would have a puddle of water. It is a very hygroscopic material, one which attracts moisture from the atmosphere. If not protected from contact with the atmosphere (by being stored under vacuum or under a dry gas) some hygroscopic materials will eventually attract so much water that they will form solutions.
2. Then this water wets or hydrates the outer skin proteins. This weakens the proteins and loosens the protective skin barrier.
The weak skin barrier allows bacteria, viruses, and allergens to pass through the skin. Often famous young actors in their late 20s have a very spotted skin (you often see this on a large screen) from skin barrier damage from heavy use of make up and make up removers.
3. The wet proteins slow keratin production. The signal for the skin to send up new keratinocytes to the surface is a dryness in the proteins in the top of the skin. So skin is replaced slower and damage accumulates.
4. Many years ago, women used Cold Creams to keep their faces moist when they went to bed. If you have seen "I Love Lucy" or old movies, you have seem women with these white creams all over their face. But they ended up with horrible wrinkles as time went by because their skin had been keep too wet.
5. There is the idea of a limited cell life but many cell biologists doubt if this is correct. Many cells line that die in about 40 generations will live very long - such a 200 generations - as normal diploid, cancer-free cells if they are given supplemental growth factors such a fibroblast growth factor, GHK, and other hormones. No one knows how long cells can live because very long cell culture experiments are very expensive.
The body also makes stem cells - even in adults - that can keep setting up new cell lines. |
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Sun Nov 26, 2006 10:03 pm |
| Monica, this is the first time I've heard any of this info--- I'd be interested to hear more. Where did you read this? And what does this Dr. say should be used to hydrate the skin instead? |
_________________
27, sensitive/reactive/acne prone skin, dark brown hair, blue eyes, possibly the palest woman alive... |
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Mon Nov 27, 2006 3:08 am |
| Quote: |
| I dont know what HA means |
Hylauronic acid
| Quote: |
| I'd be interested to hear more. Where did you read this? And what does this Dr. say should be used to hydrate the skin instead? |
I would like to hear more as well  |
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Mon Nov 27, 2006 5:43 am |
Dr.Pickard from SkinBiology sells HA himself - so thats confusing to me. It was the first time I heard about it too. He is for biological oils like emu and such.
| manslayerliz wrote: |
| Monica, this is the first time I've heard any of this info--- I'd be interested to hear more. Where did you read this? And what does this Dr. say should be used to hydrate the skin instead? |
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Mon Nov 27, 2006 6:15 am |
I am familiar with this train of thought. And "some" limited studies do "seem" to possibly support it. But other studies seem to discredit it.
A search on Pubmed pulls both up. Since not all the detailed data is displayed publicly on the studies, it can be a bit hard to sort it out. Some researchers feel the "studies showing damage”, has some definite flaws in the way the studies were done. Which will skew results.
Either way - you will find supporters on both ends. But there is not enough strong data either way IMO to prove ether argument strongly.
I think this is a conclusion that has options in both directions. I do disagree with his cold cream statement as the only reason for aged skin. Women of 60 years ago also used a number of very harsh treatments on skin that are known to contribute to aged skin appearance. Steaming facials, harsh detergents, harsh abrasives, and bleach agents, No sunscreen, UV tanning, smoking etc. I think there are a number of factors involved, and cold cream is possibly one, but one of many things.
Most of Dr Ps issues are from commercial creams and lotions which often have some damaging ingredients. I do agree with that. And with straight Hyaluronic Acid on the skin surface as being “to wet” vs a blend with other ingredients, which is “less wet”
Certain ingredients do create a very wet environment for longer term, which can contribute to skin issues.
I do agree some not all, Bio Oils are better overall, because they do provide a number of benefits not available in creams and lotions, even those that contain some of the same Bio oils, are still much less beneficial then the actual oils neat. But oils can be used incorrectly as well, causing issues.
I also think well formulated, mild lotions and creams can be very effective as well. Much depends on the actual ingredients and formulations involved as well as how products are used.
Kind of like everything else.
I think these studies are worth watching for sure - but I don't think all the info is in yet to make such a strong conclusion accross the board. |
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Mon Nov 27, 2006 7:06 am |
Thanks Tagal.
So straight HA is not advisable then if I understnad corrctly?
I know emu, what other oils are best for healing as well as pushing in other actives? Is Jojoba as good too? |
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Mon Nov 27, 2006 7:17 am |
I don't have an issue with it myself, though I don't use it, because for me it is not benificial. But straight HA, or a serum that is mostly HA is one issue. That is not the only problem ingrediant, bit in the HA discussion, thats the issue.
Many oils are benificial depending on your needs.
Jojoba is an excellent skin oil regulater, and wonderful for oily skin, though all skin types benifit from it ability to regulate skin oil, and help pore stay "clean". It has milder pushing activites.
Hazelnut a wonderful clarifier for acne prone skin, great blended with Jojoba, good for oily skin.
Emu has heavy moisterizing and healing properties, and is very effective as a Skin Barrier repair product, and strongly enhances penitration of other activities, good in blends also
Squalene is very moisterizing, has some penitation and healing attributes, and good for dry skin. Not good for acne prone skin, as it can cause breakouts.
Then you have oils that are great in blends because of their healing activites, antioxitive effects, help for aged skin etc. Grapeseed, Raspberry, Borage, evening primrose and many many others.
And a number of Essential oils used in very small amounts are very benificial.
I like the oil Blends atwww.ifeelpretty.com for someone who wants to start cheaply with a facial oil. They have three common blends, that pinpoint common skin issues. I use those or make my own.
They work best diluted in hand with some distilled water, or the Anti-ox or Water/toner spritz sold on that site.
You add a few spritzs of water in hand, to a few drops of oil, blend - pat on skin twice daily (you can apply heavier oil ratio in PM if needed) - many people have very good results conmpaired to traditional moisterizers.
In winter, when skin is dryer, I use more Emu in my oils, in summer, when I am more oily, more Jojoba and hazelnut and a higher water ratio. |
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Mon Nov 27, 2006 12:46 pm |
| Great info on oil Tagal Thanks |
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Mon Nov 27, 2006 12:51 pm |
I've been looking for a base for a oil blend for oily-ish skin. I ended up buying "almond Glow" by home health. It's got almond oil, peanut oil, vitamin E, lanolin and olive oil.
What do you guys think about that. I hear a lot about jojoba, and like it myself, but worry it's going to end up too....heavy for my skin. |
_________________
23, Asian skin, tends to be oily, some problems with acne. |
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Mon Nov 27, 2006 1:03 pm |
Jojoba helps regulate oily skin, and keep pores clean, because it is small enough to get inside the pore well without clogging issues. It helps lossen oil clogs as well.
The oils you listed don't have those attributes as strongly, so will not be as benificial overall.
Generally I dilute all my oils with a few drops of water in hand, blend and pat on skin. You only need about 5 drops of oil with a few spritz of water for the entire face.
This sinks in immediately and is not at all heavy.
You can also dilute your Jojoba with Hazelnut, and Grapeseed and/or Emu oil - excellent for oily or acne prone skin. Hazelnut is astringent which is terrific for acne prone skin.
If your oil can still be felt on the skin surface after 15 minutes you used to much.
You only need a little, diluted with water. |
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Mon Nov 27, 2006 1:07 pm |
How is olive oil as a healing oil? I have seen it in skin care lines.
Does it make a good pusher too? |
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Mon Nov 27, 2006 1:15 pm |
Olive oil is not as great a pusher as Emu or Jojoba (Emu is better), it nice for body skin because it is heavy. But it is often to heavy for facial skin. Some love it still though. 
It is a good moisterizer and healer, but it can cause clogs for some.
If you like the idea of Olive, go with Squalane instead, this is derrived from the Olive Oil, but is lighter then whole olive oil, yet still has the benifits. This does not cause the possible Pore clogging issue as plain Olive can.
This is good for dry skin - I would not recomend it neat for oily skin, its generally not tolerated as well as Jojoba for that skin type.
It can certainly be mixed with Jojoba or other carrier oil though for oily skintypes, and will do better that way.
Diana Yvonne has some sample sizes of a few oils, which are nice to allow you to try a few and see which you like.
I personally don't like HA, Squalane or Olive on my skin.
But each are good in their own way for the right types. |
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Mon Nov 27, 2006 1:27 pm |
Great info Tangal. Thanks  |
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Mon Nov 27, 2006 1:32 pm |
Tangal,
Where is the best place to get jojoba oil?
Semi-off-topic question: so many anti-oxidant sera come as solutions in 1% HA. if one take's on Dr. Pickart's views, does this mean that one should avoid all HA-containing products? who makes antioxidant sera that don't contain HA?
priscilla |
_________________
35, combination skin, post-inflammatory hyperpigmentation at the slightest blemish + stubborn blackheads on nose. Ignoramus about skincare--hence the litany of skincare woes. Here to learn, and grateful for help. |
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Mon Nov 27, 2006 3:00 pm |
well I get mine online from a number of sources, Ideally you wany cold pressed 100% Jojoba, many prefer organic.
Some good oil sources are:
http://www.cedarvale.net
http://www.vitacost.com
http://www.iherb.com
http://lbemuoil.com/emu_oil.htm (emu oil only)
http://gardenofwisdom.com
http://www.mountainroseherbs.com (very high quality if your budget allows)
Most local Healtffood and Whold Foods stores also sell Jojoba, but it is often about twice the cost. Make sure your oil is 100% Jojoba (look on the back) not a blend.
HA is never in any product at higher then 1%, because it is such a thick substance normally. So the "least" you can dilute it and still have a useable product is to the 1% level. Which would be "to much" if you prefer to avoid HA, based on that school of thought.
Many HA containing products will have it at much lower levels, near the bottom of the ingrediant list - this is an acceptable level. |
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Mon Nov 27, 2006 3:43 pm |
This is what Paula says about HA as one of the intercellular substances
Intercellular Substances
Intercellular substances (which I often refer to as ingredients that mimic skin structure) should be the backbone of every moisturizer. In fact, moisturizers are not about giving skin moisture or keeping water in skin. All current research is about moisturizers keeping the outer layer of skin resilient and healthy, and that has little to do with water content. But it does have everything to do with giving skin the substances that keep skin cells intact so they can defend themselves against the environment, feel soft and supple, and maintain a reliable protective balance. Ingredients such as ceramides, cholesterol, fatty acids (linoleic acid, triglycerides, glycerin, phospholipids, lecithin), and glycosaminoglycans (hyaluronic acid, sodium PCA) are essential for helping skin to function normally, as it once did before sun damage and age got the better of us. (Sources: Clinical and Geriatric Medicine, February 2002, pages 103-120; Progress in Lipid Research, January 2003, pages 1-36; Journal of the European Academy of Dermatology & Venereology, November 2002, pages 587-594; Contact Dermatitis, June 2002, pages 331-338; Journal of Investigative Dermatology, May 1996, pages 1096-1101; British Journal of Dermatology, November 1995, pages 679-685; Skin Pharmacology and Physiology, September-October 2004, pages 207-213; Free Radical Research, April 2002, pages 471–477; and Journal of Lipid Research, May 2002, pages 794–804.
Natural moisturizing factors. One of the primary elements in keeping skin healthy is making sure the structure of the epidermis (outer layer of skin) is intact. That structure is defined and created by skin cells that are held together by the intercellular matrix. The intercellular matrix is the "glue" or “mortar” between skin cells that keep them together. It helps prevent individual skin cells from losing water and creates the smooth, non-flaky appearance of healthy, intact skin. The components that do this are often called natural moisturizing factors (NMFs) or ingredients that mimic the structure and function of healthy skin. While the oil and fat components of skin prevent evaporation and provide lubrication to the surface of skin, it is actually the intercellular matrix along with the skin's lipid content that gives skin a good deal of its surface texture and feel.
The intercellular matrix is the skin’s first line of defense against water loss. When the lipid and NMF content of skin is reduced, we experience surface roughness, flaking, fine lines, and a tight, uncomfortable feeling. The longer the skin’s surface layer (stratum corneum) is impaired, the less effective the skin’s intercellular matrix becomes (Sources: Skin Research and Technology, August 2000, pages 128–134; and Dermatologic Therapy, Volume 17, Supplement 1, 2004, pages 43-4 . Moreover, the skin's healing process is impaired. NMFs make up an expansive group of ingredients that include amino acids, ceramides, hyaluronic acid, cholesterol, fatty acids, triglycerides, phospholipids, glycosphingolipids, urea, linoleic acid, glycosaminoglycans, glycerin, mucopolysaccharide, and sodium PCA (pyrrolidone carboxylic acid). Ingredients that mimic the lipid content of skin are apricot oil, canola oil, coconut oil, corn oil, jojoba oil, jojoba wax, lanolin, lecithin, olive oil, safflower oil, sesame oil, shea butter, soybean oil, squalane, and sweet almond oil, which can all be extremely helpful for making dry skin look and feel better.
All of the skin's supporting NMFs and lipids are present in the intercellular structure of the epidermis, both between skin cells and in the lipid content on the surface of skin. When any of these ingredients are used in skin-care products, they appear to help stabilize and maintain this complex intercellular-skin matrix. Although none of these very good NMFs and lipids can permanently affect or change skin, they are great at temporarily keeping depleted skin from feeling dry and uncomfortable. More important, all of these ingredients, and many more, can help support the intercellular area of the skin by keeping it intact. This support helps prevent surface irritation from penetrating deeper into the skin, works to keep bacteria out, and aids the skin's immune/healing system. Selecting moisturizers of any kind with NMFs (whether they are labeled as being antiaging, antiwrinkle, serums, lotions, or sunscreens) allows your skin to do its job of repairing and regenerating itself without the impedances brought on when skin is suffering from dryness and excess irritation (Sources: Clinical Geriatric Medicine, February 2002, pages 103-120; Progressive Lipid Research, January 2003, pages 1-36; Journal of the European Academy of Dermatology and Venereology, November 2002, pages 587-594; Contact Dermatitis, June 2002, pages 331-338; Journal of Investigative Dermatology, May 1996, pages 1096-1101; British Journal of Dermatology, November 1995, pages 679-685; Skin Pharmacology and Physiology, September-October 2004, pages 207-213; Free Radical Research, April 2002, pages 471–477; and Journal of Lipid Research, May 2002, pages 794–804).
This makes sense to me, to replave what has become diminished in your skin as we get older? Maybe moderation is the key? I would love to hear what others think |
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Mon Nov 27, 2006 4:22 pm |
| This makes sense to me too, and, I don't think this ingredient would feature in so many dermatologist ranges if it was not good for the skin. |
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Mon Nov 27, 2006 4:58 pm |
Right - thats what I think too. I used to use cetaphil and switched to CeraVe which I LOVE:) Its very light and has three ceramides, HA, glycerine, cholesterol, etc., developed by dermatologists too.
I just ordered emu oil too. I will combine it with my moisturizer. I especially wanna use the emu over Retin A and CP serum to get those actives to penetrate deeply. |
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Tue Nov 28, 2006 1:09 pm |
I dumped a little of the contents of one of my Hydraplenish caps on a clean, dry plastic lid. After several hours, it had not formed a puddle 
Searching Getty Images, I found several photos of Lucille Ball at age 77, about a year before her death. I observed no wrinkling beyond what one might expect for someone 77 and near the end of her life.
For whatever this worth . |
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Tue Nov 28, 2006 2:29 pm |
| MAC8 wrote: |
I dumped a little of the contents of one of my Hydraplenish caps on a clean, dry plastic lid. After several hours, it had not formed a puddle
Searching Getty Images, I found several photos of Lucille Ball at age 77, about a year before her death. I observed no wrinkling beyond what one might expect for someone 77 and near the end of her life.
For whatever this worth . |
LOL no puddle!
I think to say that moisturizers are the reason for aging based on wrinkles that had developed by women using them prooves NOTHING.
Inthink it prooves that a simple moisturizer will NOT PREVENT wrinkles. Not, that it causes it!
To help prevent them, we need sunblock, no smoking, healthy diet, special skin care ingredients like tretinoin, CP, hydroxy acids and such.
Back in the day, women didnt have good sunblocks or/and didnt use any and all they had was cold cream.
JMO |
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