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Mon Dec 04, 2006 9:14 am  |
He may be correct on the 10 pH recomendation for "best use" of the Anime form.
I am no sure on that since I personally have not researched formulation of DMAE a lot. I don't like the amine form so my product is a lower pH. I have used some amine forms, but for me the benifit vs smell, cost was not there. So I use a Bitrate version and it helps for me, less smell, lower cost.
But if he is correct, if the product is well made, and you have not already stripped the acid mantle from heavy detergents then you are probably fine with the DMAE at 10%.
I would really need to look into it more to be completely accurate. Are you susng it all over? Most ppl use DMAE to spot treat, in which case, it is less of a concern anyway for overall issues.
Part of the Vit C issue is the form of Vit C used, and its pH. If it is L-Ascorbic, then it would need a low pH 2.0 or so to be effcetive, with a recomended 10% concintration.
If applyed imediately to high 10% DMAE on the skin, then this raises the Vit C pH up. You may still get some benifit, but you will also loss some.
If you wait for the DMAE to absorb, and wait 20 min or so for pH to lower - then add the Vit C -you are not raising its pH. So your would get more C benifits.
BUT Vit C likes to go on clean skin for best penitration. So if the DMAE is in a thicker form, that also hampers the Vit C.
Vit C in a Cream base tends to be less effectve in many cases.
Vit C in other forms, not Ascorbic, are less pH sensitive, so in those cases the DMAE could be applyed first, but you still may have formulation issue, and the fact that C likes a clean base. |
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Mon Dec 04, 2006 10:00 am |
Actually, I don't use DMAE, I've got it for my mom. I think he was correct on high pH because they bought original studies performed by Jhonson &J (sp?) that proved the effectiveness of DMAE.
With all this pH talks I started worried about applying high pH product. Now I feel more confident about using these kind of products. As I understand, if the skin mantle is intact, and the product doesn't damage it, it's o'k to use the products with high pH because the skin is able to return pH to normal by itself in 20-30 minutes.
Thank you again, Tangal! |
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Mon Dec 04, 2006 11:06 am |
Basically - yes. Assuming you are not using any other ingredients to breakdown the acid mantle. So you would need to know the ingredients you are working with for accurate answers.
And ideally you are useing other products to help keep the acid mantle as healthy as it can be. (oils, Copper Peptides, Antioxidants, whatever you are useing etc)
Some products you will use in treatment will weaken the acid mantle, and some times that can't be avoided - such at Retin A.
But this is a product - that if it works best for you, is worth the risk. So you weigh it, and use other activities to compensate.
For me, I was able to find alternatives to Retin A, that worked as well as, or better, with less acid mantle issues.
So that’s my preferred option. And for me - my skin did much better overall, and still improved.
But not everyone has that result, and others do find that the Retin A results work better for them and are woth the "issues' so they adjust other product to still keep skin health overall. . If I could not find good alternatives that worked, then I would have stayed with Retin A, and just worked extra hard to keep my skin barrier at its healthiest.
I did research a bit more for you, DMAE Amine form liquid is alkaline, which means it generally should not be applied before an acid for best effect. According to most sources.
Because it will hamper your acid. So in the higher pH it should go later in your layering for best results.
But I gather, from other posts I have read, the PSF recommendation may be that it always be applied first. I personally feel that will affect you acids and hamper them. But I think the best judge is for users to try it both ways, and find the method they feel works for them.
Since it is not my place to correct a manufacturer, who knows their product line best. 
I personally have always used all DMAE after my acids. I have used a number of types incluiding some amine forms, and this has always worked best for me, and makes the most sense compared to the data I have seen on the subject, and how pH and acids work optimally. |
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Mon Dec 04, 2006 11:30 am |
mapril – not sure if I answered you yet.
| Quote: |
Wow Tangal - my compliments to you for doing a yeoman's job and great service to the forum! I just hope I can understand it all. As it is, it seems like the bottom line is waiting between layers of products -- even cleansers. I may have to start getting up earlier!
Darren has recommended that the new PSF DMAE be applied after cleansing and before a C serum, which runs counter to what you've stated. I've noticed since using DMAE these last couple of months that it does seem to be more effective when applied before C. Like jumpingball, I still have questions and wonder how long I should wait before applying l-ascorbic acid serum over DMAE, and whether or not the C will be as effective when layered over something with such a high pH. What do you think??? |
Well you can adjust your cleanser to a lower ph, to lessen the pH concerns. Thus no wait. (if cleanser is 5.5 or lower) Or go with a toner to lower the pH. (no alcohol, irritants or witch hazel are recommended though)
You can combine acids to get dual effects at the same time, if pH and formula match. For example you can apply a BHA, AHA, and or Vit C together in layers with one tatal combined wait time – if the all share a common low pH, and thin formula.
Or do alternate days and times. AHA one night, Vit C the next, BHA the next – whatever you have. Or one in Am, one in PM
Not all layers need waits though, just your pH sensitive ones. Other then that it is usually just an absorbancy issue.
Layering L-ascorbic acid over DMAE even after a 30 minute wait will not be as effective IMO. Because the DMAE pH is pretty high, and L-Ascorbic normally should be very low (2.0 pH roughly) The extreams are to large.
Which is why the Vit C is first, then the DMAE.
But if you feel it works better in reverse for you, then you should wait 30 min after the DMAE before the C- to at least let the skin pH drop down as much as it can first.
That pH drop is the normal adjustment time from 7.0 or so down to 5.5. Going from 10pH down to 5.5 - may take longer, which it why I think you Vit C may be hindered still.
Because it then must pull the skin down to 2.0. If skin is at 5.5 that is fine, and it can do so. But if skin is at 8.0 for example after 30 min, then its harder for the C to pull it down so fast. Vit C absorbs quickly in the skin, so you possibly have a shorter overall time frame to work with I think. (would need to confirm that for you)
Vit C really works best on clean skin, its an AHA, so if you apply it over anything, that can be an issue. AHAs can be limited on penitration ability.
If the DMAE is liquid and does not leave a film of any type you may be okay. Have you confirmed you Vit C pH and percent? It should be around 2.0 pH and about 10% for best results.
Usually you can wait 10 to 15 minutes after ascorbic acid before applying you next product. Assuming you have a fast absorbing formulation. (serum would normally qualify as such)
If your C is a serum and you DMAE a liquid, it will not penetrate through the C well. |
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Mon Dec 04, 2006 1:34 pm |
Tangal - you've answered my question, don't worry! So many products, so little [face] time!!!
To me, using l-ascorbic acid is most important, so I may switch back to applying it first eventhough the DMAE may not perform as well. But if I were going out in the evening and therefore didn't have to concern myself with photo-damage, I'd forego C and SS and just apply DMAE and then moisturizer. This would noticeably tighten up my skin without worrying about incompatabilities. I'll be confident that I look my best at holiday parties this way! During the day, it's more problematic but I think if I wait 30 minutes after applying C (like you said, l-ascorbic acid is absorbed quickly), this will be workable for me. |
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Mon Dec 04, 2006 1:47 pm |
| april, if antioxidant protection is your concern...on the days when you'll want the full strength dmae, I'd give PSF's berry beneficial a try. It's a gel that absorbs instantly & smells great. Apparently, it's a great antioxidant as well. I'm fairly oily and today I applied amine dmae (BTW I love the fishy smell..I know, I'm weird), skinmedica c lotion (because I don't know where or when to apply my c serum so I gave up), berry beneficial, sunblock, tinted moisturizer & powder. I don't feel a wee bit oily. If it weren't for the supposed collagen building abilities of c serums, I'd forgo them entirely. Things are getting too complicated |
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Mon Dec 04, 2006 2:56 pm |
Remember Vit C is not the only Collage builder.
A study performed upon 20 volunteers showed that after 30 days, the formation of ProCollagen, a precursor of Collagen, increased 70% (shown by skin biopsy)with Copper users, compared with 50% formation from Vitamin C and 40% due to Tretinoin
Three other studies performed by James Leyden, M.D. of the University of Pennsylvania showed the effectiveness and benefits that Copper Peptides provided in skin rejuvenation.
One also compared the GHK Copper Peptide to retinol while another compared it to Vitamin K (for eye region).
The Copper Peptide gave impressive results in both studies with little irritation.
Thee are many many many good antioxidants in a large variety for formulations and low cost that are very effective, and not pH sensitive. Certainly quite simular to Vit C in effectiveness. |
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Mon Dec 04, 2006 3:35 pm |
Thanks Tangal. I'm not up on copper, but would Neova (skincarecentral has it) be a good option?
I'm not sure I'd want go with skinbiology-too many problems with the second generation as far as I can tell. |
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Mon Dec 04, 2006 4:01 pm |
Yes it is fine if you prefer the first generation products.
I prefer the second, better results. But the first generation is effective also, just less dramatic. But is well suited to many types. |
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Mon Dec 04, 2006 6:30 pm |
| Cograts on a GREAT post! |
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Mon Dec 04, 2006 7:32 pm |
| Tangal wrote: |
For me, I was able to find alternatives to Retin A, that worked as well as, or better, with less acid mantle issues.
So that’s my preferred option. And for me - my skin did much better overall, and still improved.
But not everyone has that result, and others do find that the Retin A results work better for them and are woth the "issues' so they adjust other product to still keep skin health overall. . If I could not find good alternatives that worked, then I would have stayed with Retin A, and just worked extra hard to keep my skin barrier at its healthiest.
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Tangal, what alternatives did you find? I currently use CP 2nd generation and think about adding some retinaldehyde product. So, I'd like to know what other options exist. Maybe I have to try something different first.
Thank you. |
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Mon Dec 04, 2006 7:52 pm |
Good idea marina! I got a sample of the Berry Beneficial Serum from PSF and I'll definitely use it at times when I'm not as concerned about photo-protection (obviously one of my neuroses), as Darren said it's not meant to be a replacement for l-ascorbic acid. The idea of being able to layer the Berry with DMAE sounds good to me!
I've been using C twice a day for the last week or so. It's too soon to notice any dramatic change. I detect a bit of plumping and the fine lines around my eyes are diminished, though I'm not sure if it's the C or recently stepping up to Avene Retrinal from Ystheal, since the dose of retinaldehyde is double.
Thanks again for all of the info Tangal! I've been intrigued by copper peptides, but haven't felt the need yet to experiment. Between CE+Ferulic, retinaldehyde, AHAs, DMAE, moisturizer, SS and makeup, I have more than enough products to juggle! |
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Mon Dec 04, 2006 9:41 pm |
| That was really excellent Tangirl. Thanks very much for taking the time! |
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Tue Dec 05, 2006 6:17 am |
For me the Skin Biology 2nd generation copper combined with a stronger (low pH) daily use AHA and stronger (low pH) daily use BHA was more effective and much less irritating. (I have gone through a few, currently I use the I Feel Pretty combo AHA/BHA solution)
I do pair this with biological oils for moisterizing, and lower pH detergent free cleanser. (I don't use commercial moisturizers generally)
(Either and I Feel Pretty Oil Blend, or a homemade blend with Jojoba, hazelnut, emu, raspberry etc) (Currently Geograpix Tea Tree or Azulene cleanser, have gone through a few others also, like this best)
I actually use Super Copper Serum and COP 2X cream.
(Skin Biology line)
Started at a lower level and worked up. I can actually use 2X over entire face neck and chest, but blend it with the serum for a better cosmetically acceptable product. (Its very strong)
I do use a higher strength 30% -40% AHA, (Glycolic or Lactic or Fruit acid blend) or 25% TCA as needed usually once a week for a period of time for more "intensive" work. I usually reserve this for winter, as it is easier to work into my schedule at that time, and UV exposure levels are less. (usually do a 6 week treatment schedule)
I did spot treat scars, which are gone now.
I Sunless Tan year round, to a medium or medium dark level, and have a lighter "tan" in winter, so it is easier to deal with the stronger peel strength acid "peel" effect.
So it is a combo approach. It took me about a year or two to fine tune to the correct level and products for my skin needs. And I fine tune as I go still.
I went through a number of Retina A strengths and formulations and brands, retinols ingrediants/products and though it was effective, I still has more barrier damage and irritation then I liked. I have acne prone oil slick skin, and this just exacerbated the problem. (Irritation and barrier damage commonly contribute to acne, very oily, very dry, and very sensitive skin conditions)
Went through the drugstore copper lines as well.
I now have my skin well under control, it is now considered "normal" and I don't have any breakouts now, other then a few hormonal related which go away very fast. This after 20 plus years of chronic acne and oily oily oily skin, and hugh pores. I used almost every drugtore productline, and a number of specialty lines.
When I began changing my skincare to low irritation, and adding in bio oils, well formulated acids (most are not) and copper, and stopped typical acne products (which tend to be high irritant) I begin to have noticeable lasting changes in acne and oil.
As a side effect my skin is my firmer, and much more refined. Enlarged pores are much more "normal", age spots gone. I do still have fine line under my eyes that I am working on (past UV damage) but skin is firmer and smoother, and seems less "saggy"
I think copper works well, if used correctly. Some people do have issues, and it may not suit them. But if it works for you it is excellent. Because of the ant-inflammatory and anti-oxidant effects it is very soothing and healing to the skin.
Many people try to do to strong or to much to fast, etc. I never had "uglys" I was very careful and gradual in my use and steps up.
I have friends who used it the same way, no uglys just good results. Some with very sensitive skin.
Like any product in treatment levels, one must use carefully and slowly, and use your skin as your guide.
OH! Sorry – I think I told you much more then you asked! |
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Tue Dec 05, 2006 6:28 am |
| Thank you, Tangal! I think i'm going in a right direction. What is the website for i feel pretty? I cannot find it. |
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Tue Dec 05, 2006 6:35 am |
Sorry, thatswww.ifeelprettyproducts.com
Under exfoliants are the AHA/BHA combo. Or a good BHA cream I like alot also. (Great to treat bikini shave issues, or nice for those who want a more moisterizing BHA base)
The body lotions, and scrubs and gels are really nice, grab a sample size while you are there and I like the the Bio oil blends, and the DMAE/AO mist.
The body sprays are alcohol free, so nice to mist on your hair for scent.
 m.....thats most of the products I think...LOL
I pretty much use most of that line, with a few addons. I have tryed all the products there. |
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Tue Dec 05, 2006 7:56 am |
What an informative post. It helped to explain to me why my skin acts so freaky sometimes 
Great job!
Tina |
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Tue Dec 05, 2006 8:57 am |
| I, another one, say thank you to Tangal. I already added it into my favorites. |
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Tue Dec 05, 2006 9:02 am |
I already saw a post in the FAQ on Vitamin C, not sure if y'all still need something else on that.
Someone mentioned it, but I guess it depends on what you guys want? I have a 6 page draft here on the different forms and how to use each. But maybe thats not what you need?
What exactly does everyone need, or is it already covered enough already?
Don't want to bombard you with info you already have/know. Or step on someones toes, when they have already given good info in the past. |
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Tue Dec 05, 2006 9:04 am |
| Tangal - Some may feel overloaded with C info, but not me! I'd like to read anything you can come up with! |
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Tue Dec 05, 2006 10:27 am |
Alot of great info Tan, thank you for all your hard work. I think I have to agree with most here that we're on information overload right now. 
For those of you interested in continuing the adventure  maybe Tan you could either post a link to the info you have OR have interested parties PM you??
Don't think you're steppin on toes here as we all know as research continues information is updated or outright changes. I think you have been extremely generous with your knowledge & time.
Cuz - I don't know about others - but I dreamt of being chased by oranges last night!! |
_________________
Think for yourselves and let others enjoy the privilege to do so, too. ~ Voltaire www.Candessence.com |
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Tue Dec 05, 2006 10:40 am |
Tangal, thanks a lot for the most valuable info.
I wandered if yo ucan elaborate on how you "did spot treat scars, which are gone now".
TIA,
Lucy. |
_________________
Early 50s, Skin: combin.,semi-sensitive, fair with occasional breakouts, some old acne scars, freckles, under-eye wrinkles; Redhead with hazel eyes |
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Tue Dec 05, 2006 11:12 am |
| sigma wrote: |
Tangal, thanks a lot for the most valuable info.
I wandered if yo ucan elaborate on how you "did spot treat scars, which are gone now".
TIA,
Lucy. |
Scallawagg just finshed an extremely in depth description of this with photos.
http://www.essentialdayspa.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=17724 |
_________________
Think for yourselves and let others enjoy the privilege to do so, too. ~ Voltaire www.Candessence.com |
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Tue Dec 05, 2006 11:32 am |
okay if anyone has C question, PM me and I will help, if I can. If not, no worries.
For scars:
I had a 1 scar on my forehead, along my outer eye. This went from outer eye up to, and through eye brow.
It was shallow, not raised, flat but noticeable. May be 1/4 inch wide I think.
Similar to this one on Sandra Bullock but wider, and up into the brow
http://www.skinema.com/Act2Scars.html
I received it as a teen, so it was 22 years old approximately. I actually was not “trying” to spot treat it per say. I really had forgotten about it. But while treating my face, using an advanced treatment plan, I looked up one day and it was completely gone. I had had this for years, so this was not “normal” healing. It took about 6 to 9 months to remove it. Not positive since I was not monitoring it exactly.
I used mild cleansers on my skin, once a day. (low pH, mild detergent)
And I was using 10% Lactic Acid with a low pH 1.9 daily. (I was using the Diana Yvonne One at that time)- once a day for 30 minutes
Skin Biology Exfol BHA Serum twice daily. (I now use the stronger I Feel Pretty BHA/AHA blend, but the Exfol is fine also)
Super Copper Peptide Serum, from Skin Biology twice daily.
COP 2X cream once daily. (Skin Biology)
Moisterizing oil with Emu, Jojoba Hazelnut, Raspberry Seed oil and some Essential Oils added.
30%, low pH Glycolic acid from Platinum Skincare once a week all over face.
Since I was doing an advance routine at that time I had twice daily applications of Copper and exfoliates. (I was not working at the time, so was able to fit this into my schedule)
My routine was like this.
AM
Water wash with Microfiber cloth.
BHA 2%, low pH for 30 min
AHA 10 %, low pH for 30 min
Super Copper Serum all over
Moisturize with Emu, Jojoba, oils blend mixed with water
Makeup and Sunscreen
PM
Wash face with mild low pH cleanser
AHA 10 %, low pH for 30 min
Super Copper Serum all over
COP 2X Cream all over
BHA 2% lotion applied on top as a penetration enhancement agent (no exfoliation action)
Moisturize with Emu, Jojoba, oils blend mixed with water
Rest skin two days a week. (Weekend for me)
One day a week, when I remembered, I replace one AHA step with 30% AHA peel strength for 6 weeks. I tried a few brands, Glycolic and Lactic. Lactic was gentler. I have since learned I like TCA also. Glycolic is the most irritating of the three, and the least recommended option IMO.
Normally you would not use this intense program all over, though you certainly can to “spot treat” areas. Some people do use this advanced program twice daily all over face, and that’s fine too – after you build up to this level, if skin can tolerate it. It took me one year to ramp up to this level.
If I was treating a facial scar now I would do it slightly differently.
I would spot treat the area with Super Copper Serum mixed 50/50 with COP 2X. Or 2X alone if you can tolerate it. (the 2X is much stronger then the Super CP Serum, and not for the faint of heart) I would try to do this once to twice a day, based on skin tolerance, skin area, and your schedule.
Apply Lactic 10% BHA 5%, low pH serum once or twice daily. (I like the all in one from I feel pretty, but you can use two separate products with two wait times instead)
Use the I Feel Pretty lotion BHA as a push/penetration enhancement agent if needed in the PM.
Use a 12%-15% TCA or Lactic peel once a week. Platinum Skincare orwww.bestskinpeels.com, orwww.makeupartistchoice, orwww.dianayvonne.com
If skin is sensitive or you are a beginner to copper and acids this is too advanced. Though one can use this as a spot treatment only, depending on area.
And you can make adjustments with your acids, and copper strengths to make it more acceptable for a beginner. But you must proceed at a level suited for your skin.
Apply Emu before your Copper acts as a buffer to lessen irritation.
Do not add the extra BHA Push step in the PM if you are to sensitive.
Dilute Copper more and or lessen acid time on skin to lessen irritation.
Use once a day, or once every other day etc if sensitive.
Alternate acids used, alternate type and strenghths.
Many ways to work around that.
If you are using Retin A or similar products, skin will be more sensitive then normal. So use caution and common sense.
Pitted or sunken scars, or raised keloid scars will require intense treatment and take longer for results.
Some scars will not change; scars are NOT easy to treat. They do take time, patience, and usually powerful products, and still no guarantees.
Using the similar steps above I have also removed raised skin tags and raised moles on neck and body.
I have also tried RetinA, on the same scar for three years and no change. |
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Tue Dec 05, 2006 11:35 am |
| Scallawaggs post is a terrific example of a good scar removal method. |
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