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Tue Dec 05, 2006 12:19 pm  |
| Thanks Tangal and Candy! |
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Early 50s, Skin: combin.,semi-sensitive, fair with occasional breakouts, some old acne scars, freckles, under-eye wrinkles; Redhead with hazel eyes |
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Thu Dec 07, 2006 6:59 am |
Tangal:
My goodness, what wonderful information you've so generously provided & so well condensed.
As a new member, I very much appreciate what I'm learning from the forum & people like yourself who are willing to spend the time to educate the clueless like me.
Used Sisley products exclusively for yrs, (used them like they were as cheap as Nivea - silly me)loved the natural fragrance, their results but began to think with all the technologies newly available in skin care there must be something available that is effective & less xpensive. Searching around I discovered EDS & the forum.
You may recall my post to you & the hardened oil bumps collecting under the skin, what to do. Reading for hours on forum to educate self, decided to use a stronger Retinol formula, the OCM,no moisturiser on forehead, Vit C serum (want to make my own) and lemon/sugar acid treatment most nights - all to say that w/in 5 days, skin was glowing, firmer, smaller pores, plumper & bumps nearly totally gone.
Thanks to tutorials from ladies like yourself, am loving my courses in skin care.
Thanks again  |
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Thu Dec 07, 2006 10:04 am |
Tangal, Thanks so much for the info. Like all good info it has raised a lot of questions. I hope you can help-
1. How do you find out the ph of your cleanser?
2. With the wait times necessary , how do us busy women manage w/ the am routine?
3. What is better for mature combo skin- AHA or BHA?
4. I like mandelic acid-alcohol free-where in the acid application does this fit in?
Thanks so much! |
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Thu Dec 07, 2006 10:33 am |
| Quote: |
Tangal, Thanks so much for the info. Like all good info it has raised a lot of questions. I hope you can help-
1. How do you find out the ph of your cleanser?
2. With the wait times necessary , how do us busy women manage w/ the am routine?
3. What is better for mature combo skin- AHA or BHA?
4. I like mandelic acid-alcohol free-where in the acid application does this fit in? |
1)
Some cleansers are here.
http://www.dianayvonne.com/category/11.thephofcommoncleanser
Sometime you can fin the info atwww.drugstore.com. Good place to check ingredients also.
Check the manufacturers website for product info and details.
Test it yourself with pH paper. 
2)
My schedule is easy actually. I use a low pH cleanser, so no wait. MY AHA/BHA are one product. I apply it immediately in the AM as soon as I get out of bed. This way it stays on my skin while I take kids to school work out and such. Then I shower and apply my other products. Currently I work at home.
When I worked in the Real World, I simply applied acids or “wait” ingredients in the PM after work.
My routine is here if you want exact details, and purchase info (I am Vicki, picture in my profile)
http://www.sunless.com/phorum/read.php?f=2&i=357242&t=357238
Basically:
AM
-rinse with water, and a micro-exfoliation sponge or cloth
-every day, 5% BHA/10% Lactic AHA solution (I Feel Pretty Brand) (Dianna Yvonne and Bigdog sells 5% BHAs and Diana has AHA)- wait 30 (this is when I workout)
-Apply Skin Biology Super Copper Peptide Serum mixed with Super Cop 2X, entire face, neck. chest, and under eyes
-facial oil mix diluted with Rooibos, DMAE toner water (wait until absorbed) ( I mix myself, but recommend I Feel Pretty)
-sunscreen
If wearing makeup, I abbreviate my daytime routine to just the DMAE, and Antioxidants. Sunscreen. Makeup.
PM
-wash face as needed with mild detergent free low pH cleanser *
-homemade 10% Vit C, COQ10, Idebenone serum product
-self tanner if needed after 30 min
*I remove makeup with babyoil, or other oil blend. Then wash once with Geogrfx Azulene Cleanser, then occassionally one wash with Tea Tree Cleanser, followed with a rinse rub with a microfiber cloth. (I wear a heavy silicone base foundation, so a bit tough to remove)
Occassionally a strong peel for treatment of problem areas. Either the Fruit Peel 35% or a 25% TCA peel, or 40% Glycolic. Use as needed. I used to use once a week, but now most scars etc are gone.
My DMAE does not need a wait time since it is lower pH, and I mix it with my oils and apply as my last step.
3)
With Mature or combo skin -Both AHA and BHA are probably needed, so you may want a combo product. Or use BHA on T zone only AHA all over. It depends on your skin, and how it reacts.
AHA will do surface exfoliation, soften fine lines, help on sun damaged or dull thick skin and age spots. Helps other products penetrate better.
BHA is your pore exfoliate. Helps clean inside pores of excess oil and dead cells and makeup buildup, helps sooth skin, helps repair skin, helps other products penetrate better, good for oily skin areas.
4)
Mandelic acid is an AHA with better oil penetration attributes; it “may” replace your BHA and AHA, if it is working well for you. It takes the place of your AHA or both AHA and BHA if you find it does fine. But if you still have congested pores, enlarged pores, blackheads, whiteheads, then you need to add in a BHA once a day also.
I found I needed both an AHA and BHA for my skin which was super oily. Yours is less oily, so you may not need both.
So it is used first after your cleanser as your exfoliate, before other treatments. |
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Thu Dec 07, 2006 11:30 am |
Tangal,
informative and concise.
Thanks,
Lucy. |
_________________
Early 50s, Skin: combin.,semi-sensitive, fair with occasional breakouts, some old acne scars, freckles, under-eye wrinkles; Redhead with hazel eyes |
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Fri Dec 08, 2006 4:30 am |
| Thanks so much Tangal. Great info |
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Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:12 pm |
Tangal, I need a tiny bit of help here.
Would this work for me?
a.m
wash face
wait 30 min,then mandelic acid with ph of around 2.5
platinum skin care 8% glyco eye cream
psf phyto eye lift
emu oil/ha serum
I am not sure what to put on first, the eye cream or the psf phyto eye lift gel. Plus, I want to get some dmae to replace the psf phyto but don't know what one to get, or when to put it on in conjunction with these things.
In p.m
wash face
wait 30 min(I am so sick of doing that)
Ifeelpretty bha with ph of aroung 2%
wait 30 minutes
copper eye cream around eye (platinum skin care)
copper serum all over
carekates pearl paste,
emu oil/ha serum
I use vit c sometimes, but not very regularly.
(it gives me bumps)
Does any of this sound off to you? I don't know if I should be using the mandelic acid and bha together or splitting them up like this because I don't know if the mandelic can penetrate through the bha, and that would have to go on first. Sorry for all these questions. I just feel as if I am doing something not right here.
Thanks Tangal.
Oh, p.s....I was thinking about getting the red tea from skincarecentral, it looked pretty good, has anyone on here tried it? I need a good antioxidant, but don't know what to get. |
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Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:25 pm |
Tangal, I need a tiny bit of help here.
Would this work for me?
a.m
wash face
wait 30 min,then mandelic acid with ph of around 2.5 - You need to add a 30 minute wait here before applying your emu/ha (I assume the Mandelic is not going on the eye area)
platinum skin care 8% glyco eye cream
psf phyto eye lift
emu oil/ha serum
I am not sure what to put on first, the eye cream or the psf phyto eye lift gel.
Do the gel – then the cream
Plus, I want to get some dmae to replace the psf phyto but don't know what one to get, or when to put it on in conjunction with these things.
Well you could use the I Feel Pretty DMAE which has an antioxidant blend, and the DMAE Bitrate is at a lower neutral range pH in a liquid formula. Then you can apply after your acid wait, before other products with no wait time needed.
If you use Amine form, you would add later after copper. But would need a serum or thicker to penitrate the serums in your layers. And may need a wait time, depending on what else you go with.
From other sources it depends on thickness and pH.
In p.m
wash face
wait 30 min(I am so sick of doing that) (Then get a 5.5 pH cleanser  – no wait needed, or wipe down skin with a low pH alcohol free toner like the Nutrogenia Alcohol Free or Paulas Choice or Nivea one, or very dilute Apple Cider Vinegar – this eliminates your wait time)
Ifeelpretty bha with ph of aroung 2%
wait 30 minutes
copper eye cream around eye (platinum skin care)
copper serum all over
carekates pearl paste,
emu oil/ha serum
This is all good.
I use vit c sometimes, but not very regularly.
(it gives me bumps)
Vit C, depends on formulation and pH, but is normally applied AFTER your acids, unless it is a cream or lotion.
Does any of this sound off to you? I don't know if I should be using the mandelic acid and bha together or splitting them up like this because I don't know if the mandelic can penetrate through the bha, and that would have to go on first.
You can use either Mandelic or BHA they have similar properties. If the Mandelic is thicker then apply after the BHA, The use one wait time of 30 minutes for the Mandelic and BHA layer since the pH is close on both.
Or use on alternate nights if you want. Most ppl don’t use Mandelic or BHA twice a day though. Can cause dryness, If you do need twice a day use though you can do BHA in one session and Mandelic on the other. No need to do Mandelic twice with BHA also. Since both work similarly on pore penetration.
Sorry for all these questions. I just feel as if I am doing something not right here.
Thanks Tangal.
Oh, p.s....I was thinking about getting the red tea from skincarecentral, it looked pretty good, has anyone on here tried it? I need a good antioxidant, but don't know what to get.
I Feel Pretty DMAE uses Red Tea for its Anti Ox base, which may be easier in your layers because it is water like.
But if you want a serum instead, layer before your copper, after acids, before creams and oils. |
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Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:54 pm |
Thanks Tangal.
Can the Ifeelpretty dmae antioxidant be used on eye area. I mainly would like the dmae for the upper eye lids, and the antioxidant would be like an added extra.
If I understand correctly, because the ph levels for my mandelic and bha are so close, I only need on wait time after I apply both? So no wait time inbetween? Bha, mandelic, then wait 30 minutes.
I don't use these both twice daily. I use each one once daily. I split them up the first time I used the bha but don't like it that way. |
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Fri Dec 15, 2006 6:07 am |
You can use the Ifeelpretty product on entire face, eyelids, under and upper eyes and lips.
You only need one wait time with the BHA and madelic, if you layer them together because they have very close to the same pH - so one wait of 30 min for both products combined. |
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Fri Dec 15, 2006 12:22 pm |
| Thanks Tangal. I ordered the ifeelpretty dmae antioxidant spray yesterday. Holy crap was that inexspensive compared to some other stuff I have bought. Thanks for the recommendation and the advice. |
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Wed Feb 21, 2007 5:30 pm |
i figured someone might have the answer to my question here.
I purchased some CP serum from diana yvonne and it came with a small green capsule with some cream in it. Anyone know what this is and what its for? |
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Wed Feb 21, 2007 6:21 pm |
| Diana Yvonne often adds free samples in with orders. If the container does not have a label and the packing slip does not say what it is you should email and find out. It can be any of a number of products she carries. |
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Wed Feb 21, 2007 6:48 pm |
Yea, they emailed me back, figured it would be before tomorrow before i got a response but i just did.
I wanted to use the serum and didnt know if it was something i had to apply with the serum or not.
The forgot to label the product but told me it was some moisturizer.
Thanks |
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Fri Feb 23, 2007 11:34 am |
| If you use the OCM -ie. jojoba, do you need to wait 30 mintues thereafter to apply bha/aha? I know that oil is not measurable in terms of ph., so I don't know if I should be waiting before applying my bha/aha. Also, would the oil create a barrier so that the bha/aha would have a more difficult time penetrating? |
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Fri Feb 23, 2007 11:37 am |
yes oil can create a barrier to AHA - probably not an issue with a BHA.
No you probably donot need to wait 20/30 minutes if you are not useing any detergents or high pH products above 5.5 on your skin first. |
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Fri Feb 23, 2007 11:48 am |
| Hi Tangal. Thanks for replying so quickly. I just left a post in your review for the IFP cleanser. Re. the oil barrier, maybe I should cleanse w/the IFP after the oil or cut the OCM out completely? I'd like to trim my routine down though. My question to you in the other post is whether you thought it necessary to use oil in conjunction with the IFP cleanser in order to feel that your face was thoroughly cleansed of makeup/dirt? Also, which of the IFP clarifying, Tea tree, or Azulene your would recommend. |
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Fri Feb 23, 2007 12:10 pm |
I do not use oil as a cleanser, except to lossen/remove eye makeup, or an aid with heavy silicone based foundations.
Which(the oil step) you may not need. It really depends on your skin and products you use.
Double washing with the cleanser, or useing a microfiber cloth on the rinse step (after one wash) may be enough for your needs. Many find the IFP cleanser removes all makeup in one step, it just depends on your products that you use.
I am personally not a fan of cleansing with oils only. I use a mild detergent with them, when I do use them
I like all three cleansers you mentioned, but personally prefer the IFP cleanser, if choosing one. |
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Fri Feb 23, 2007 1:59 pm |
| anyone know the pH of DHCC? |
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Fri Feb 23, 2007 4:45 pm |
| Hi Jeffer. I was told that since oil isn't water soluble, it can't be measured in terms of pH. I was originally concerned about the ph value of oil interfering with the application of bha/aha's, but then figured out that it's really the oil-based nature of the product that I need to worry about in that the oil could create a barrier that the bha would have to work through to be effective. |
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Fri Feb 23, 2007 5:13 pm |
| So i guess i should pick up a new cleanser then. Though I do like DHCC. |
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Fri Feb 23, 2007 8:01 pm |
Any suggestions for a mild low pH drugstore cleanser? I want to try using this BHA out tonight and wont wanna order one online and wait another week.
I was looking through the list but dont know if any of those would be sold at wal-mart or similar. |
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Fri Feb 23, 2007 8:45 pm |
| When I was reading through a previous thread there was a list with various products' ph. I think Tangal linked to Diana Yvonne's site. The Neutrogena Deep Cleansing & Acne ones had a ph below 5.5 |
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Mon Mar 05, 2007 5:22 pm |
Hi Tangal, you have really inspired me and I've been trying to adopt the principles you've laid out here - so, I've moved my Vit C, followed by DMAE, to night time! Could I ask, do the amine and bitartrate forms of DMAE both have 30 min wait times?
Also, at night I like to use a cleanser without water - could you recommend a tissue off cleanser or a toner I could user that would get my skin to the right ph? Or could I just spritz my face with water? Or could I just wait before applying my Vit C, and if so, how long would I wait? Sorry for the barrage of questions, I seem to have got a bit anxious about it all!
I was also inspired by your words to get a DMAE antioxidant mist from I Feel Pretty and GHK Copper Serum from Skinbiology to use (both)in the morning. Does the AO go on before the copper,and can the AO be applied to my skin regardless of its ph? and how long do I need to wait after I use the AO before applying the copper? And/or, can the copper go on clean skin, and if so, does the ph of my skin matter for copper? And how long do I need to wait after applying the copper before I apply sunscreen? Again, I apologise for all these questions. I have read this thread several times, actually, but I don't think I've passed yet! 
I think my cleansers am and pm aren't good from a ph point of view, actually - I've ordered one from I Feel Pretty which will be fine, I think, but it would be great if I could spray my face with something after cleansing that would rebalance my skin ph-wise.
Anyway, I can't thank you enough for your wisdom and kind help throughout. Best wishes, Diane |
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Mon Mar 05, 2007 6:12 pm |
DMAE products in any form do not have any wait times in relation to its function and its pH at all.
Though Amine form is a HIGH pH, (around 10 I believe) so can affect OTHER products used after it, if they have a lower pH (copper for example, at 6.0).
Bitrate is lower pH, (4.5 - 6.0) so this is not an issue, its not really pH sensitive on its own.
Copper, DMAE, etc. are not altered when used with each other or after each other. They all have about the same pH 5.0-6.0
They do have a wait time, only in relation to absorbency on the skin, which depends on the thinness/thickness of the formula.
If you use a thin DMAE like the I Feel Pretty DMAE/Anti Oxidant – which is water like. Then really there is not much wait time.
But if your DMAE is a thicker cream or lotion, then you would wit for it to absorb. This could be as long as 15 min.
So they all use the thin to thick application order, though DMAE does like clean skin best if possible to absorb deepest. But if products used under it ARE thinner, it often will absorb well enough.
The Vit C does have a wait time of roughly 15 minute, to allow the Vit C to absorb deeply into skin while at the lower pH needed for most Vit C products. Applying something with a high pH before that 15 min wait will slow and lessen Vit C absorption levels and amounts.
I don’t really recommend any drugstore cleansers at all. Most have irritant ingredients, pore cloggers, detergent issues, or pH issues.
You can use an alcohol free irritant free toner. I know Nivea Visage is one, and Neutrogena also make a mild alcohol free toner. I don’t know the pH of either. I called the company, they could not tell me. But I believe they are 5.0 to 6.0 range. If you have pH strips you can check it. I did not have them when I used that toner. I don’t use a toner now.
You can also do a mild toner with 4 ounces of dististilled water and ˝ to 1 ounce of Apple Cider Vinegar. This will be lower pH, but can be drying or irritating to some skin types. Use less vinegar as opposed to more, to lessen irritation risk.
You could also use an inexpensive AHA or BHA toner/liquid treatment which is low pH. Like the one from I Feel Pretty or Paula’s Choice Solution. But depending on your skintype this can be two irritating for daily use. This will not effectively exfoliate the skin when used in this manner. It is simply a way to lower pH before using you other pH dependant product like your Vit C.
Many oil only wipe off methods work to remove makeup, without causing pH issues, but personally I am not a fan of those methods, unless one follows with a cleanser or toner to remove all oil residue first. In many cases residue is left on the skin or in the pores, which can lead to cystic acne for those prone to this. Dry skin often can do better with this method then oily or sensitive skin.
Oil methods that are based on OIL ONLY products, with no added detergents etc. Are genbnerally around 3.0- 4.5 pH depending on the oil involved. Which is all perfectly fine. Oil pH is hard to measure with conventional test strips because of lack of water in the product. But most skin friendly oils are at the pH or the range noted above.
Face should be clean of makeup, sunscreen, and residue before applying any acids or treatments including Vit C. So your really need to wash all products off of skin before using Vit C and treatments. Water only will not normally do this. Though water with a microfiber cloth can be used for AM only washing when you are not dealing with heavy sunscreens, or foundations, or thick creams or lotions. (If your skin is not sensitive to the cloth)
I don’t use the GHK copper, that’s the first Generation Copper version. I actually use the stronger Second Gen from Skin Biology. I have never used the First Gen product – though it is supposed to be milder. But use methods/application order would be the same.
The AO from I Feel Pretty is not pH dependant on its own. Mainly its your ACIDS that are pH dependant. It is liquid so can go under all other products except your Acids and vit C – because they (acids) are pH dependant.
You would do:
Cleanse (wait 20-30 min if pH is high)
Acid (wit 30 min for aha/bha to let it exfoliate, 15 min for C) (AHA, BHA, Vit C)
Anti ox from IFP (no wait after)
Copper Serum(no wait after, except to absorb as needed)
Moisterizer lotion, cream or oil (no wait after except to absorb as needed)
Sunscreen (no wait after, except to absorb as needed)
Makeup
AO, Copper, Moisturizer none require wiat. They are not pH dependant. Layer based on thickness, with Sunscreen your last step before your foundation.
Copper can be applied to clean skin, as could AO, or Moisturizer, or Sunscreen. (if any are used alone)
The issue with cleansers – if the pH is high (over 7.0) and it has a strong detergent even if you balance the pH immediately – the damage is already done. The damage occurs immediately when you apply the detergent with a high pH to skin. It literally happens in seconds. So if that is a concern, lowering the pH as a second step is really to late to prevent damage.
Aim for a lower pH cleanser below 7.0, preferably around skins normal pH 4.5-5.0-5.5 – 6.0 there ‘bouts. You can even go lower, but don’t go above 7.0. Stay close to 5.5 range or so as possible for least irritation issues..
Use mild detergents.
If you are only concerned with lowering pH to move to your next step
- then use a mild toner, alcohol free, low pH,
- -or a low cost BHA or AHA liquid to lower the ph (be aware you are going to lose some exfoliation action here, because of the higher skin pH, but this will effectively lower pH to add a second step. Which could be another higher cost acid or other pH dependant ingredient)
- Use apple cider vinegar VERY dilute to lower pH |
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