Vitamin C Uses, and Wait Time info (Long)
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free skin care · Thu Dec 07, 2006 5:37 pm

Thanks Tangal. I can probably understand why some companies recommend using only their own products as they are probably formulated to be layered in the correct order.
I really like simple routines but appreciate your posts and the info they have provided.

free skin care · Thu Dec 07, 2006 8:35 pm

Seriously Tangel, you ROCK! This is wonderful and is so helpful. I am learning about Vit C (so no a beginner) but this post contained so much information I didn't know but wanted to know.

.

free skin care · Fri Dec 08, 2006 4:59 am

Thankyou Tangal, that could explain sudden sagging under my eyes (I had put it down to lack of sleep). I'm so glad you joined this forum, have learnt so much from you (and CareTake), really appreciate you taking the time to help.

free skin care · Fri Dec 08, 2006 5:51 am

Thank you so much, Tangal!!!

I've been using PSF's 20% Super Emergen-C Repair Serum since the summer (I'm not exactly sure what month), and I'm worried that it might have gone bad just because it's probably been around 6 months since I opened the bottle. I've noticed no change in color or texture. Unfortunately, it's always been yellow. Is there a way to test if it's still good?

Also PSF's C has hyaluronic acid as the first ingredient and C as the second. Is HA a good base for the C?

Again, thanks so much for sharing your knowledge!

free skin care · Fri Dec 08, 2006 6:10 am

It certainly may still be good, especially if no color change is noted, since you purchased it. They usually go yellow, to tan to amber in fairly quick succession.

However if the product has always been yellow, and this is from added dyes, or other ingredients that tint the product – then you can not easily “see” the oxidation change. This is why I recommend one use clear or white products if possible.

It could have already turned yellow before you opened it, which means it has started to oxidize. But then again, if it has an ingredient that tints it yellow, it may be 100% fine, and yellow is normal for that product.

Personally I do not recommend one use an oxidized product on the skin, The Vit C may still be effective to an extent – but applying an oxidized product to the skin can cause oxidative and free radical damage to the skin also. Which is not good.

I don’t know of any way to test effectively it except in a lab.

free skin care · Fri Dec 08, 2006 7:29 am

Tangal wrote:

so far I have no found and studies or real info that shows Ascorbyl Methylsilanol Pectinate is more then an antioxidant and a thickener.

Lots of "Claims" but no data anywhere to support it.

I have a few other things to check still.

Oooooh, that makes me mad. Thanks for checking, I appreciate it. Guess I won't be repurchasing that one! And thank goodness I didn't pay full price for it!

free skin care · Fri Dec 08, 2006 7:44 am

Hi Tangal - When you say plant-based ingredients in C sera can have an oxidizing effect, I'm wondering what kind of plant ingredients -- any and all? Ferulic acid is supposedly botanically-derived yet it's used in SkinCeuticals CE+Ferulic.

I've tried to find out more about this subject of plant-based ingredients but it's difficult. And any detailed info about formulating techniques is hard to come by -- companies seem to guard it as a trade secret.

free skin care · Fri Dec 08, 2006 9:22 am

Any and all plant based ingredients could be an issue.

Metals are part of normal tissues in all living creatures, including humans. Wink

A lab analysis of any plant extract can show trace levels of metals in the samples.

This is normal. But it will also vary from sample to sample, batch to batch, species to species.

Plants are a natural botanical. They are not formulated in a lab where you can precisely create a perfect ingredient in its purest form.

Any plant or botanical ingredient is only as concentrated and pure as the plant it comes from. So all plant ingredients will fluctuate in potency of active ingredients, because the plants are not all identical.
One plant differs from it neighbor.
One season’s growth differs from another.
The soil and water in one area will differ then that in another. This would include metal residue that the plant absorbs and uses as part of its normal cell network when building tissues. Which would be a part of any extracts from those plants.

Pollution in the air, which can include metals can absorb into plant leaves. Oleanders are often planted around heavy traffic and urban areas, because they can easy survive the high pollution rates. They muffle noise, and can help some in air purification, and oxygen release. But their leaves also absorb the contaminants in that pollution. This is common of many plants.

Even plants in clean greenhouses will still absorb some metals from soil, air and water.

Any plants can have some metallic residue in their tissues, as part of their normal makeup. Either from the soil, fertilizers, etc. This is correct and normal in plants. This is normally fine, and in small enough amounts to be of little concern. Usually only trace levels. And batches are tested to be at “safe” metal levels for normal use.

Several statistically significant correlations between metal content in plants, metal content in soil fractions, and chemical characteristics of soil were also found.

Most online links for metals in plants are in relation to pollution, and heavy metals and plants grown in those areas. This is more of an issue, because then the plants have the potential of becoming contaminated from to much metal concentration. So when reading links, realize – this is the area they are focusing on in that study. This is not to say all plants are at this contamination level.

Some plants do accumulate metals more heavily then others. Mushrooms are one example of this. This link shows metal content of mushrooms and other plants in one area. This is an industrial area, so pollution is an issue here.

Not common in plants used in skincare products of course. But just shows any and all plants can uptake metal and hold the residue in their tissues.
http://www.bionet.schule.de/schulen/novaky/heavy_metals/en/hm07.htm#7.3.

Any plants can absorb these metals, including wild grown organic plants, through the soil and acid rain.

These links have more info on how the plant tissues absorb the metals throughout their entire system. These are technical documents. So difficult reading. Sorry I have no laymen’s documents available online at the moment.

http://www.sebiology.org/bulletin/Jan2002/plantwork.htm

http://books.google.com/books?id=LmjqrKXXP1cC&dq=metals+content+in+plants&pg=RA1-PA11&ots=vFL-de76LS&sig=9bObMjHJoquUWqX4PcJhMOchZ10&prev=http://www.google.com/search%3Fhl%3Den%26safe%3Dactive%26rls%3Dcom.microsoft:en-US%26sa%3DX%26oi%3Dspell%26resnum%3D0%26ct%3Dresult%26cd%3D1%26q%3Dmetals%2Bcontent%2Bin%2Bplants%26spell%3D1&sa=X&oi=print&ct=result&cd=1

http://books.google.com/books?id=xcYvi-7abC4C&dq=metals+content+in+plants&pg=RA1-PA43&ots=-a3zbUpypX&sig=Pw4mooRF-MXxijEKlv1wjp0fVgI&prev=http://www.google.com/search%3Fhl%3Den%26safe%3Dactive%26rls%3Dcom.microsoft:en-US%26sa%3DX%26oi%3Dspell%26resnum%3D0%26ct%3Dresult%26cd%3D1%26q%3Dmetals%2Bcontent%2Bin%2Bplants%26spell%3D1&sa=X&oi=print&ct=result&cd=2#PRA1-PA44,M1

Bioengineering plants that don’t absorb metals from contaminated soils.
http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/summary/285/5426/369

Another document referencing metal content in spice and medicinal plants grown in controlled conditions. Just showing that plants do uptake metals from the environment.
http://www.actahort.org/books/306/306_15.htm

Shows iron and Cadmium transported up into many plants as part of their normal function.
http://www.pnas.org/cgi/content/full/97/9/4991

Metal in some Essential Oils
http://www.hort.purdue.edu/newcrop/ncnu02/v5-399.html

Metal in Citrus
http://pubs.acs.org/cgi-bin/abstract.cgi/jafcau/2003/51/i05/abs/jf020804t.html

Mint Metal content
http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?pid=S1677-04202005000400002&script=sci_arttext

Pepper plants (and others in right column)
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=11243157&dopt=Abstract

Ginko
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=16423371&dopt=Abstract

Just to clarify - Generally any of these metals would only show in extracts in trace amounts, Which is not going to be a problem in most cases.

Hazard level metals are at amounts to small to pose a danger for normal use.
http://www.actahort.org/books/426/426_47.htm

But when mixed with Vit C- because C is so sensitive to metals it “could” be a concern. And there is really no way you, as the consumer, will know if it is or is not an issue in “your” product. So it is generally recommended as a “to avoid” option if possible.

I have access to lab documents, on a industry formulation website that discuss this in formulation recommendations, but it is not available publicly online . I will look for other sources for you that have public access.

If you product is not oxidized you should be fine. But just know, especially if you home brew, that using plant extracts or bases in your formula, can create a less stable product overall, that may oxidize sooner then a plant free product.

I would not throw out a plant based Vit C product. Nor refuse to use it, if you love it. Just keep in mind that in some formulations or batchs this could create a stability issue.

free skin care · Fri Dec 08, 2006 11:03 am

Tangal wrote:

Vitamin C and Stability

Vitamin C has stability issues, making it difficult to work with. Light, heat, metals, humidity, oxygen will all degrade Vit C quickly. Vitamin C is not as stable in water. DIY (Do-It-Yourself) formulations will be more stable with less water content.

Vit C Formulations should not use tap water or plant extracts, because even trace metal ions (often present in plants) when combined with Vitamin C, can be Pro-oxidative to the skin. (cause increase free radical or oxidation damage).

Hi Tangal - thank you so much for contributing this informative piece on Vitamin C Serums. I just want to clarify a few issues with you (so that everything is straight in my head Embarassed

). First, if Vit-C is not as stable in water, why do so many serums have 'distilled water' listed so high in their serums? Is it included in serums strictly to dissolve the L-Asorbic Acid, or is there another reason manufacturers use it?

Second, do you know of other effective serums besides Cellex-C, SkinCeuticals and Professional Solutions, that DO NOT include water in their ingredients at 20% C concentrations?

Third, if plant extracts can destabilize the Vit-C due to possible contamination from trace metal ions, why does Skinceuticals (as an example) include Ferulic Acid in their serums? Wouldn't this also pose as a problem because Ferulic Acid is a compound obtained from certain plants? I must admit, I am confused by this popular ingredient. Equally confusing is the use of Aloe Vera and distilled water together in a Vit-C serum. Wouldn't both the water and aloe juice destablize the Vit-C faster? Or is Aloe Vera an exception to the rule? It is, afterall, used in lots of cosmetic and anti-wrinkle products.

Thanks again for the great information and especially all your help!

free skin care · Fri Dec 08, 2006 11:58 am

Oh my goodness! This post is WONDERFUL, Tangal. I hope that this information is placed in the FAQ.

I have a question about Vitamin C and niacinamide products? Can they be used at the same time or should they be spaced 12 hours apart? If they should be spaced, is the niacinamide compatible with CP products?

THANK YOU!!!! Very Happy

free skin care · Fri Dec 08, 2006 12:09 pm

Vit C will oxidize sooner in water then in something like Propylene Glycol for example.

L-Ascorbic dissolves in water or propylene glycol. But you probably don’t want an all propylene glycol product; It is a bit sticky, filmy feeling on the skin. Not really nice if that’s all you use.

So a blend with water and propylene glycol for example will absorb better and feel better on the skin.

I don’t know all the brands available and their ingredients because that is not always available publicly. Few brands have Vit C at 20% concentrations, because it is more likely to irritate.

Obagi has a good L-ascorbic acid 20% product that uses Propylene Glycol first, and then water in their serum. It is pricy though, about $85 online.
http://froogle.google.com/froogle?q=obagi+Professional+C+serum+20%25&btnG=Search&lmode=online&scoring=p

Water in a formula is not a reason to disregard a formula completely. Even if it is first, if it has something like Propylene added as well. It still may be 55% water and 40% Humectants, then C etc. That’s perfectly fine. That’s still not all water, and has enough other activities to stay fairly stable, as much as Vit C can anyway.

Because if it is formulated correctly, other ingredients like humectants or alcohols will be added to it, in high enough amounts, to help maintain stability even with a good amount of distilled water in the mix. That’s normally the case with a commercial product.

I guess the point I was trying to make, is if you are making your own product with water only, be aware that it may oxidize faster then you expect. So as a Home Brew product, for best stability, you should be prepared to add humectants, alcohols, other forms of Vit C, preservatives etc to help maintain stability. And the larger the water amount the more issues you may have.

I see people all over making ther home made products with jus water and nothing else. You certainly can do this, and it will not hurt you if proper sterility etc. is followed. But it also may oxidize faster then you like. Which again is not an issue – since you just remake it.

But if you pay $50 or more an oz. and the product is poorly formulated, and oxidizes in 2 weeks, that’s not to great.

That is not the same as saying a product with a lot of water is a bad one. Just that its not always as stable a one either.

Many things can destabilize Vit C. Plants (metals in plants actually) being one, including Aloe. Any plant can, because of the possible metal issue.
This is a fairly different area of study, (How substances in plants in trace amounts can interact with ingrdeiants)- and not everyone conciders it. Of feels its a concern.

Companys/labs take the risk because they feel possible benefits outweigh the risk, And the consumer acceptance will be better for that particular formulation. Which it may be. And since a Vit C product in most cases is packaged in a “30 day” supply. It can easily last that long . Which is all thats needed in most cases. Just because it has potential to degrade faster is not a guarantee that it will be faster then the consumer normally will use it up. And even if it does do so in some bottles, if the amount is low enough, then it is still worth the risk and part of normal product returns.

If the consumers use it before you have any issue, then alls good. And everyone’s happy.

Some labs are more concerned with this then others. When speaking to labs – just like Doctors, you reach all range of knowledge. Some Drs stay on top of all the latest information and breakthroughs. Some never read any medical literature after they graduate if they can help it. Smile

Finding a good Lab, be can be very difficult. There are many around, with a range of prices, and knowledge. I know more then a few companys that have had issues with this in the past.

I have dealt with more then one lab that was giving its “companys” inaccurate information on products and ingredients. This info was then being passed on to the consumers through the company websites, messageboards, and customer service staff. Then when I came back to the company with “proof” they took it to the labs, and things were changed based on the new info the lab did not have. So once everyone involved received more information, they adjusted things based on that info.

Not that the companys you are referring to are bad. I was just giving an example of how "some" situations like this have occured n the past.

They may have researched it and decided with their labs that it is worth any possible issues, because their product overall maintains the stability level they need to keep their clients happy. And the formula they use is important as is – to keep it that way. Nothing wrong with that at all. That’s how marketing is done.

Aloe is used in many formulas because it is widely available, inexpensive, and consumers love the concept of it. And it has attributes making is easy to formulate with. We all like products that are “natural” and have “botanicals’. It’s the latest “feel good” group of ingredients on the market. Everyone is jumping on that bandwagon, and includes them whenever possible. Not always because it makes a product better – but often because it “looks better” on the label.

So consumers will buy it. And at the end of the day - consumer perception matters a whole lot.

Any one can certainly make homemade products in the same way, with Aloe or other botanicials. Its all back to benefits vs risk for you. If it lasts long enough for your needs, Then you are okay.

Its all just things you should concider overall, as part of the bigger picture.

free skin care · Fri Dec 08, 2006 12:15 pm

Niacinamide can be used with Copper and Vitamin C as far as I know. The only concern I would have is niacinamide can produce a bit of irritation and dryness when you first use it. (You may have seen this as a slight flush or tingle when first used)

For this reason pairing it with Vit C in the same session could "possibly" be to irritating for some people. But I personally have used niacinamide products after an L-ascorbic Vit C 10% products with no issues.

So I guess it is more based on your specific skin sensitivitys. And if you are useing any of the products the first time - start slowly as each could be irritaing if overused.

free skin care · Fri Dec 08, 2006 12:20 pm

Thanks Tangal! Niacinamide serum products are usually neutral pH? When I get a niacinamide serum, I will take your advice and introduce it slowly. My skin is more sensitive and easily irritated now that the weather is so cold. I guess if the vitC and niacinamide are too much, I can also try using them on alternate days.

Many, many, many, many thanks for all of the advice and instruction! Very Happy

free skin care · Fri Dec 08, 2006 12:23 pm

I guess it would depend on your brand. But most of the ones I have seen are around 5.5 -6.5 pH.

Which is a fine range.

Which were you looking at?

free skin care · Fri Dec 08, 2006 12:35 pm

I am trying to find one.

I know that Candessence is coming out with one some time. I have also looked at Metazene gel
http://www.lifelinknet.com/New/Products/Metazene.asp

Recommendations welcomed!
priscilla

free skin care · Fri Dec 08, 2006 12:42 pm

ahh that looks very resonably priced. Thats probably a good one the start with.

free skin care · Fri Dec 08, 2006 12:42 pm

Tangal,
First let me just say that this is a wonderful job you did. Now for the questions.

-I will start with the niacinamide; here is what Dr. Todorov from Smartskincare had to say about combining Vitamin C and niacinamide.

"Niacinamide is not acidic, it should not lower pH of vehicle much.

However, if niacinamide is placed in very acidic pH, there would be some hydrolisis to free niacin, but I don't think it would be that fast. However, if you make low pH niacinamide cream and store it, it may hydrolyse a lot over time. However, one would need to measure hydrolysis rate constant of naicinamide to niacin and its dependency on pH to give you quantitative answer."

Taken from this thread on the Smartskincare forum: http://www.smartskincare.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2163&highlight=vitamin++niacinamide

Whether hydrolisis to niacin matters or is bad is an entirely different question that Dr. Todorov did not address but apparetntly Vitamin C does do something to niacinamide. I use a moisturizer that contains niacinamide and am guessing that as long as I wait 15 min. after applying my C serum there should be no problems.

-Vitamin C and metals; Is this a case where the metals act as catalysts to speed up the oxidation of the Vitamin C? Also, isn't zinc a metal? This is included in commercial C serums by many of the major brands (ISC, Skinceuticles and Cellex-C). Wouldn't including something like zinc cause problems or does it not matter?

-What is your opinion of anhydrous bases for C serums? I have been using the SkinMedica C Complex which is in a silicone base and IMO this is a very good C serum. Unless I missed it I don't believe you really addressed anhydrous/silicone bases for C serums.

Thanks

BTW I think it helps to know that the reason that water causes problems with vitamin C is that it acts as a catalyst to speed up the oxidation of the vitamin C. Oxygen is what does the oxidizing but in the absence of water it is a relatively slow process. The more water the faster the oxidation. I am sure that you know this Tangal but I thought that some of our other members might be better able to understand why water causes problems if I mentioned this.

free skin care · Fri Dec 08, 2006 12:44 pm

Pricilla-here ya go.

http://www.houseofnutrition.com/lilimenge5oz.html?ovchn=FRO&ovcpn=Froogle&ovcrn=Life+Link's+Metazene+(niacinamide+gel)+2oz&ovtac=CMP

free skin care · Fri Dec 08, 2006 12:46 pm

Fantastic!

I have been looking for something "clean" without a lot of additives. I feel better about it with your recommendation.

Are there any stability issues with niacinamide as there are with vitamin C?
priscilla

free skin care · Fri Dec 08, 2006 12:48 pm

I have not used that product Pricilla, just found a cheaper link for you. But based on the ingrediants it looked okay.

free skin care · Fri Dec 08, 2006 12:52 pm

Oops I forgot one!

How exactly do copper peptides make Vitamin C ineffective? Is it because of they contain a metal and oxidize the C or is it something else? Also, does this apply to all forms of Vitamin C or just ascorbic acid?

I have heard that ascorbic acid (or acids in general) will cause the copper to disassociate from the peptide and therefore you no longer have a copper peptide but free copper and a peptide. If this is the case then the problem with combining vitamin C and CPS is not just the copper deactivating the Vitamin C. What do you know about this and does it make a difference if the peptide is 1st or 2nd generation? I actually vaguely recall reading that other forms of vitamin C can also cause these problems when used with CPs but I don't recall where and my recollection on this is not good. Have you ever heard this?

free skin care · Fri Dec 08, 2006 12:52 pm

Tangal, if I get the Ifeelpretty lactic aha, could I still use the mandelic? I know you said it could penetrate oil and if i was usinga bha it was fine, but I'd rather do it the right way. Thanks, Rae

free skin care · Fri Dec 08, 2006 12:56 pm

Thanks Theresa, wonderful information.

I normally would use any product, including Niancinamide 15 min or so after the Vit C, At which point the C should be absorbed well enough into the skin. So it seems based on your info this is okay. Which I believe would be the “normal” application in most cases.

Looks like the issue arises in actual formulation.

I am not sure on the Zinc issue, since most of the material I dealt with did not even mention Zinc specifically. So it may not be an issue.

Plants in general have other metels in their tissues. Not sure how or if they uptake much zinc.

I did not address silicone bases specifically, but I do not think they are problematic at all. They are the base of many cosmetic serums, and are well suited to many skin types. Though some people have individual issues with silicones, but then that is true of any ingredient.

As long as they are well formulated, (pH, strength etc) and one factors in base thickness when applying them – they can be an excellent product.

free skin care · Fri Dec 08, 2006 12:59 pm

THANKS, TANGAL!
i am always happy to save money. if i try this one, i'll post a review.
priscilla

free skin care · Fri Dec 08, 2006 12:59 pm

I can see the light at the end of the tunnel now! Thanks Tangal - I now officially have my head wrapped around the use of water and plant extracts in these serums. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it all boils down to the 'odds' of using a serum with these products before it destabilizes. If you go through a serum with a healthy dose of water and/or plant extracts in it before it oxidizes, good for you! If, on the other hand, you are not so lucky and your serum turns before the 30 days are up, you can pour those lost dollars down the drain with your oxidized serum. This is the only real risk that I can see. The vit-c serums with water and/or plant extracts are just as effective and potent as the serums without these ingredients - they just run the risk of "potentially" destablizing the serum sooner than serums without these ingredients. For a while there, I thought water and/or plant extract ingredients hindered the serum even before any potential destabilization. This is what concerned me most. Glad to know this isn't the case....right?

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