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Sun Dec 31, 2006 8:29 am  |
| I was telling a friend who is an esthetician (sp?) that I was making my DIY vit C serum. She said that was fine EXCEPT that she doubted that it went beyond the surface of the skin. Then came an explanation which I don't really remember and she said that Skinceuticals was the only one that she knew of that went below the top layer of skin. Does anyone know whether this is really true or just more hype for me to spend extra $$$? |
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Sun Dec 31, 2006 8:39 am |
Rubbish  |
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Sun Dec 31, 2006 9:19 am |
| Vitamin c DIYs are among the easiest to make and many people seem to have great luck with it. I don't use C because I use copper products but I have read that many people prefer making their own C serums so that they are fresh and they are not paying for product that will oxidize quickly. Go ahead and try and if your skin improves, you have proved her wrong! |
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Sun Dec 31, 2006 9:27 am |
| I've used C serums pretty much since they first came out. Stopped for about 18 months. Since I discovered eds and diy recipes was just wondering if the c serums had as good of an effect as Skinceuticals. |
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Sun Dec 31, 2006 9:43 am |
| I might be wrong, but I don't think any vitamin C product penetrates the skin below the epidermis? |
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Sun Dec 31, 2006 10:06 am |
| OK, it's has something to do with stabilizing the molecules so they don't oxidize and also about make the molecules smaller to that they penetrate the top layer of skin.? I was just wondering if John Hill or some other person who is really up on this has an answer. |
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Sun Dec 31, 2006 10:40 am |
I think that when they are talking about their serum being able to "penetrate" the skin, what they really are saying is that they use the L-ascorbic acid form of vitamin c. That particular isomer matches the receptors in the skin to accept & absorb the vitamin c. But this is true with any serum (even a DIY) that contains l-ascorbic acid. The claim that the molecule size is smaller is scientifically incorrect. I think what they mean is that they are using the L-enantiomer, which is more bioavailable to the skin. Their stabilzation process consists mainly of 2 factors - pH and chelation. Ascorbic acid solutions are most stable at a low pH, and they are probably chelating the water with the zinc sulfate, which renders any trace minerals present unavailable to trigger oxidation. This is not new technology however, but is still effective nonetheless. Also, you may find this interesting, but even the oxidized form of ascorbic acid, dehydroascorbic acid, when applied topically is converted back into L-ascorbic acid in the skin. It is the presence of a specific amino acid in the skin, that has been found to recycle ascorbic acid from its oxidized form (dehydroascorbic acid) back into L-ascorbic acid. Hmmm......interesting! 
-Darren |
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Pure Skin Formulations, LLC | http://www.psfskincare.com |
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Sun Dec 31, 2006 10:53 am |
| Darren, does this mean that the DIY version of vit C serum is as good or for that matter almost as good as the Skinceuticals/expensive store bought stuff? |
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Sun Dec 31, 2006 11:11 am |
I just received some Ascorbyl Tetra-Isopalmitate which I'm going to make a serum from.
Darren, what do you think is the best thing to mix it with, and do you think I can mix it succesfully with emu oil?
thanks.  |
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Sun Dec 31, 2006 11:31 am |
| pbsadhaka wrote: |
Their stabilzation process consists mainly of 2 factors - pH and chelation. Ascorbic acid solutions are most stable at a low pH, and they are probably chelating the water with the zinc sulfate, which renders any trace minerals present unavailable to trigger oxidation. This is not new technology however, but is still effective nonetheless. Also, you may find this interesting, but even the oxidized form of ascorbic acid, dehydroascorbic acid, when applied topically is converted back into L-ascorbic acid in the skin. It is the presence of a specific amino acid in the skin, that has been found to recycle ascorbic acid from its oxidized form (dehydroascorbic acid) back into L-ascorbic acid. Hmmm......interesting!
-Darren |
Very interesting Darren! I had heard the part about pH and stabilization but not what you said about chelation. Is zinc sulfate the chelated form of zinc and how does adding this to water chelate the water? Does it sort of attach to the minerals and make them inactive to cause the oxidation? Also, I thought that it was the water itself that acted as a catalyst for oxidizing the ascorbic acid and that the presence of minerals/metals in the solution acted as a further catalyst for the oxidation process but even if you take the minerals "away" the water will still catalyze the oxidation, is this correct?
It is odd that you mention dehyroascorbic acid and the enzyme that will convert it back to l-ascorbic acid because I had just read this somewhere. I would guess that if enough dehydroascorbic acid is applied to the skin the enzyme would be reduced significantly and then would not be capable of doing the conversion sufficently. What do you think? I will provide the link to this article below but in it Dr. Pinnell states that the conversion process to l-ascorbic acid may happen or that the dehydroascorbic acid may just decay as the lactone ring irreversibly opens (no clue what that means!). So I guess there are several reasons why the dehydroascorbic acid would not be converted to l-ascorbic acid. Very interesting indeed!
http://www.revenirbeauty.com/distributors/files/CutaneousPhotodamage.pdf |
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Sun Dec 31, 2006 11:48 am |
OK, I have to admit, I'm a little confused by all this Vit.C stuff. (again!) Does this mean that oxidized Vit.C does not cause free radicals on the skin, or is this just Vit.E?!  |
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51 years old/brunette/normal- oily medium skin. |
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Sun Dec 31, 2006 11:49 am |
 me also confused. ( again ) |
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Sun Dec 31, 2006 12:01 pm |
| All I know about vit c oxidation is that it get's dark when oxidized. I think the rest of it is a matter of ph. I don't know. I think I'm confused too. |
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Sun Dec 31, 2006 3:36 pm |
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Sun Dec 31, 2006 5:29 pm |
| pbsadhaka wrote: |
| I think that when they are talking about their serum being able to "penetrate" the skin, what they really are saying is that they use the L-ascorbic acid form of vitamin c. That particular isomer matches the receptors in the skin to accept & absorb the vitamin c. But this is true with any serum (even a DIY) that contains l-ascorbic acid. |
I think the first part of Darren's post talks about how SkinCeuticals claims its products are superior because they use L-ascorbic acid. Darren then suggests they don't hold a monopoly on L-ascorbic acid, and that D-I-yourselfers can also make L-ascorbic acid serums.
| pbsadhaka wrote: |
| The claim that the molecule size is smaller is scientifically incorrect. I think what they mean is that they are using the L-enantiomer, which is more bioavailable to the skin. |
I didn't read the whole SkinCeuticals FAQ so don't know if they're claiming their vitamin C molecules are smaller. But I think Darren is saying they made this claim, and that it's untrue. He's saying that SkinCeuticals is just trying to find another way to say how great L-ascorbic acid is vs. D-ascorbic acid and other forms of vitamin C.
| pbsadhaka wrote: |
| Their stabilzation process consists mainly of 2 factors - pH and chelation. Ascorbic acid solutions are most stable at a low pH, and they are probably chelating the water with the zinc sulfate, which renders any trace minerals present unavailable to trigger oxidation. This is not new technology however, but is still effective nonetheless. |
Here Darren is explaining how SkinCeuticals stabilizes their vit. C serums: through (1) a low ph and (2) the inclusion of zinc sulfate. He's saying the zinc sulfate helps keep minerals in the water of the serum from contributing to the oxidation of the L-ascorbic acid in the serum.
I guess this question of stabilization would be an obstacle for D-I-Yourselfers. Can you achieve low enough acidity? SkinCeuticals says their serums are below pH 3.5. Would automatically using a 10-20% concentration of vit. C. in your home formulations give you that? I don't know.
And home formulators probably don't use other means to stabilize their formulations - such as adding zinc sulfate. But maybe they don't need to if they make new serums often enough.
I think Darren just raised some points for D-I-Yourselfers to consider.
| pbsadhaka wrote: |
Also, you may find this interesting, but even the oxidized form of ascorbic acid, dehydroascorbic acid, when applied topically is converted back into L-ascorbic acid in the skin. It is the presence of a specific amino acid in the skin, that has been found to recycle ascorbic acid from its oxidized form (dehydroascorbic acid) back into L-ascorbic acid. Hmmm......interesting!
-Darren |
I think here Darren introduces a new point that really doesn't have that much to do with the specific concerns of the original poster - other than it's C-related. However, it's very interesting and he probably didn't want to make a new thread just for this. I'd really like to know more about the oxidation of C, too. And thank you Theresa for the link (here and the other thread). I'm still reading. 
It goes from ascorbic acid to monodehydroascorbic acid to dehydroascorbic acid when ascorbic acid oxidizes? At which stage would the amino acid mentioned help recycle back to ascorbic acid? What is the name of this amino acid? And does this mean we'll start seeing vit C serums that include this amino acid, or are they available already? |
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Mon Jan 01, 2007 11:10 am |
I think the confusion in this thread is over oxidized C serums and if they cause free radical damage or not. And even if they don't are they worthwhile to use.
I haven't made up my mind as to whether oxidized ascorbic acid causes free radicals. Here is a quote from smartskincare whom I consider to be a reliable source of information.
"In the presence of air or other oxidizing agents, vitamin C is easily converted to oxidized forms. The oxidized vitamin C is not only incapable of boosting collagen synthesis or scavenging free radicals but may actually promote free radical formation causing damage to vital molecules such as proteins and DNA. In poorly prepared or poorly stored skin care products, vitamin C may already be oxidized by the time you apply it to your skin."
"Furthermore, even stabilized vitamin C products may be at least somewhat oxidized by the time you use them. When vitamin C oxidizes, it eventually acquires a yellowish tint indicating an advanced stage of oxidation. Interestingly, some manufacturers add coloring to their vitamin C products, in which case it becomes hard to spot advanced vitamin C oxidation. Whatever the motives for adding color may be, we recommend avoiding vitamin C products that aren't colorless or white. Unfortunately, the lack of a tint does not, by itself, guarantee the lack of oxidation because the initial product of vitamin C oxidation (dehydroascorbic acid) is colorless. Only further oxidation produces a noticeable yellowish tint. Therefore, when selecting a vitamin C product it is important to pick a trustworthy source and be careful about the expiration date and proper storage."
http://www.smartskincare.com/treatments/topical/vitc.html
So if you go by the above quotes then oxidized C does promote free radical damage.
I do realize that this is not an absolute though but even if oxidized ascorbic acid did not cause free radical damage I couldn't picture why you would want to use it since it really does not do anything either. Yes we did discuss the fact that amino acids or enzymes can regenerate dehyroascorbic acid but I still think that there is no real benefit to applying this to the skin. See the following abstract (note the part in bold).
BACKGROUND: Reactive oxygen species generated by ultraviolet light result in photocarcinogenic and photoaging changes in the skin. Antioxidants protect skin from these insults. OBJECTIVE: This study defines formulation characteristics for delivering L-ascorbic acid into the skin to supplement the skin's natural antioxidant reservoir. METHODS: L-ascorbic acid or its derivatives were applied to pig skin. Skin levels of L-ascorbic acid were measured to determine percutaneous delivery. RESULTS: L-ascorbic acid must be formulated at pH levels less than 3.5 to enter the skin. Maximal concentration for optimal percutaneous absorption was 20%. Tissue levels were saturated after three daily applications; the half-life of tissue disappearance was about 4 days. Derivatives of ascorbic acid including magnesium ascorbyl phosphate, ascorbyl-6-palmitate, and dehydroascorbic acid did not increase skin levels of L-ascorbic acid. CONCLUSIONS: Delivery of topical L-ascorbic acid into the skin is critically dependent on formulation characteristics."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=11207686&query_hl=10&itool=pubmed_docsum
So it would seem that applying dehydroascorbic acid to the skin would not have a benefit. Yes some of it may be converted to l-ascorbic acid but apparently it is incapable of increasing l-ascorbic acid levels in the skin.
It would seem that common sense would tell us that there has to be a reason why cosmetics companies as well as DIYers are so focused on keeping their C serums stable and to prevent oxidization of the C. If dehydroascorbic acid were as good as l-ascorbic acid then that is what everyone would sell since it is so easy to make an oxidized C serum.
So my opinion on this is don't use an oxidized C serum. If there is just a little bit of oxidation then you are probably still getting some benefit from the C serum but at some point it has to be oxidized to the point where it is worthless. Why apply something oxidized to your skin when 1. It may very well be causing harm and 2. it really isn't doing anything? We can debate this on end and I find the whole science behind this very intriguing but when it comes down to it I refuse to use an oxidized C serum...... |
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Mon Jan 01, 2007 11:49 am |
| TheresaL wrote: |
I think the confusion in this thread is over oxidized C serums and if they cause free radical damage or not. And even if they don't are they worthwhile to use.
I haven't made up my mind as to whether oxidized ascorbic acid causes free radicals. Here is a quote from smartskincare whom I consider to be a reliable source of information.
"In the presence of air or other oxidizing agents, vitamin C is easily converted to oxidized forms. The oxidized vitamin C is not only incapable of boosting collagen synthesis or scavenging free radicals but may actually promote free radical formation causing damage to vital molecules such as proteins and DNA. In poorly prepared or poorly stored skin care products, vitamin C may already be oxidized by the time you apply it to your skin."
"Furthermore, even stabilized vitamin C products may be at least somewhat oxidized by the time you use them. When vitamin C oxidizes, it eventually acquires a yellowish tint indicating an advanced stage of oxidation. Interestingly, some manufacturers add coloring to their vitamin C products, in which case it becomes hard to spot advanced vitamin C oxidation. Whatever the motives for adding color may be, we recommend avoiding vitamin C products that aren't colorless or white. Unfortunately, the lack of a tint does not, by itself, guarantee the lack of oxidation because the initial product of vitamin C oxidation (dehydroascorbic acid) is colorless. Only further oxidation produces a noticeable yellowish tint. Therefore, when selecting a vitamin C product it is important to pick a trustworthy source and be careful about the expiration date and proper storage."
http://www.smartskincare.com/treatments/topical/vitc.html
So if you go by the above quotes then oxidized C does promote free radical damage.
I do realize that this is not an absolute though but even if oxidized ascorbic acid did not cause free radical damage I couldn't picture why you would want to use it since it really does not do anything either. Yes we did discuss the fact that amino acids or enzymes can regenerate dehyroascorbic acid but I still think that there is no real benefit to applying this to the skin. See the following abstract (note the part in bold).
BACKGROUND: Reactive oxygen species generated by ultraviolet light result in photocarcinogenic and photoaging changes in the skin. Antioxidants protect skin from these insults. OBJECTIVE: This study defines formulation characteristics for delivering L-ascorbic acid into the skin to supplement the skin's natural antioxidant reservoir. METHODS: L-ascorbic acid or its derivatives were applied to pig skin. Skin levels of L-ascorbic acid were measured to determine percutaneous delivery. RESULTS: L-ascorbic acid must be formulated at pH levels less than 3.5 to enter the skin. Maximal concentration for optimal percutaneous absorption was 20%. Tissue levels were saturated after three daily applications; the half-life of tissue disappearance was about 4 days. Derivatives of ascorbic acid including magnesium ascorbyl phosphate, ascorbyl-6-palmitate, and dehydroascorbic acid did not increase skin levels of L-ascorbic acid. CONCLUSIONS: Delivery of topical L-ascorbic acid into the skin is critically dependent on formulation characteristics."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=11207686&query_hl=10&itool=pubmed_docsum
So it would seem that applying dehydroascorbic acid to the skin would not have a benefit. Yes some of it may be converted to l-ascorbic acid but apparently it is incapable of increasing l-ascorbic acid levels in the skin.
It would seem that common sense would tell us that there has to be a reason why cosmetics companies as well as DIYers are so focused on keeping their C serums stable and to prevent oxidization of the C. If dehydroascorbic acid were as good as l-ascorbic acid then that is what everyone would sell since it is so easy to make an oxidized C serum.
So my opinion on this is don't use an oxidized C serum. If there is just a little bit of oxidation then you are probably still getting some benefit from the C serum but at some point it has to be oxidized to the point where it is worthless. Why apply something oxidized to your skin when 1. It may very well be causing harm and 2. it really isn't doing anything? We can debate this on end and I find the whole science behind this very intriguing but when it comes down to it I refuse to use an oxidized C serum...... |
Thanks TheresaL for this informed answer to this sometimes confusing issue. I do not want to take the chance with possible free radicals either! The idea that dehyroascorbic acid could convert back into l-ascorbic acid for "re-use" is what was confusing to me, as we have always been told to toss oxidized C, and now, I will continue to do so!  |
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51 years old/brunette/normal- oily medium skin. |
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Mon Jan 01, 2007 11:56 am |
Oh geeze...  I didn't mean to start a skuttlebutt here! RMB got most of what I was saying & paraphrased it nicely. I was just stating some facts about stabilization. And no, I don't think that DIY versions of c serums are just as good as professionally formulated ones. Not that I think they are bad, or harmful, but most DIY'ers lack the scientific background (and materials/testing equipment, etc) to successfully replicate a product that has been researched, developed, and tested in a lab. Do I think that a DIY version is harmful to the skin? No! But I just don't know how effective it would be either.
On the other hand, do I think that some retial c serums have earned their $100+ price tag per ounce? No way! But unfortunately that's the type of price gouging that can occur over a patented formula. As for the usefullness of d-ascorbic acid, I was not implying that it was beneficial to the skin, or that it did significally increase levels of l-ascorbic acid in the skin. I am just not convinced that it is as dangerous as some people seem to believe. If d-ascorbic acid was as aggressive a pro-oxidant as some would have us think, then we had better stop drinking orange juice, as by the time it is squeezed, pasturized, packaged, shipped to the stores, and then purchased by us, it is probably 1/2 d-ascorbic acid by that time! Am I suggesting using a dark yellow or brown serum? No. Vitamin C serums are not that expensive that they should not be replaced with fresh batches once they seem to be beyond their useful life.
I dunno....what do you all think? This is a good topic! |
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Pure Skin Formulations, LLC | http://www.psfskincare.com |
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Mon Jan 01, 2007 12:00 pm |
Catsi,
Ascorbyl tetra-isopalmitate I know is oil soluble. It may be partially soluble in alcohol as well, but this is just a guess from the name. I know it is a lipid/oil soluble analog of ascorbic acid. So you should be able to mix it with your emu oil, or any other carrier oil for that matter. HTH.
| catski wrote: |
I just received some Ascorbyl Tetra-Isopalmitate which I'm going to make a serum from.
Darren, what do you think is the best thing to mix it with, and do you think I can mix it succesfully with emu oil?
thanks. |
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Pure Skin Formulations, LLC | http://www.psfskincare.com |
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Mon Jan 01, 2007 2:50 pm |
| pbsadhaka wrote: |
Catsi,
Ascorbyl tetra-isopalmitate I know is oil soluble. It may be partially soluble in alcohol as well, but this is just a guess from the name. I know it is a lipid/oil soluble analog of ascorbic acid. So you should be able to mix it with your emu oil, or any other carrier oil for that matter. HTH.
| catski wrote: |
I just received some Ascorbyl Tetra-Isopalmitate which I'm going to make a serum from.
Darren, what do you think is the best thing to mix it with, and do you think I can mix it succesfully with emu oil?
thanks. |
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ahh, thanks so much. it does help. I appreciate it, thankyou.
Happy New Year. |
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Mon Jan 01, 2007 2:54 pm |
| I think I really started something here. First, I think we need to start to try and test the ph. Second, find out how to stabilize the C more. I know from TPF that propylene glycol helps the C to be absorbed into the skin better. |
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Mon Jan 01, 2007 5:22 pm |
| RMB wrote: |
| pbsadhaka wrote: |
| I think that when they are talking about their serum being able to "penetrate" the skin, what they really are saying is that they use the L-ascorbic acid form of vitamin c. That particular isomer matches the receptors in the skin to accept & absorb the vitamin c. But this is true with any serum (even a DIY) that contains l-ascorbic acid. |
I think the first part of Darren's post talks about how SkinCeuticals claims its products are superior because they use L-ascorbic acid. Darren then suggests they don't hold a monopoly on L-ascorbic acid, and that D-I-yourselfers can also make L-ascorbic acid serums.
| pbsadhaka wrote: |
| The claim that the molecule size is smaller is scientifically incorrect. I think what they mean is that they are using the L-enantiomer, which is more bioavailable to the skin. |
I didn't read the whole SkinCeuticals FAQ so don't know if they're claiming their vitamin C molecules are smaller. But I think Darren is saying they made this claim, and that it's untrue. He's saying that SkinCeuticals is just trying to find another way to say how great L-ascorbic acid is vs. D-ascorbic acid and other forms of vitamin C.
| pbsadhaka wrote: |
| Their stabilzation process consists mainly of 2 factors - pH and chelation. Ascorbic acid solutions are most stable at a low pH, and they are probably chelating the water with the zinc sulfate, which renders any trace minerals present unavailable to trigger oxidation. This is not new technology however, but is still effective nonetheless. |
Here Darren is explaining how SkinCeuticals stabilizes their vit. C serums: through (1) a low ph and (2) the inclusion of zinc sulfate. He's saying the zinc sulfate helps keep minerals in the water of the serum from contributing to the oxidation of the L-ascorbic acid in the serum.
I guess this question of stabilization would be an obstacle for D-I-Yourselfers. Can you achieve low enough acidity? SkinCeuticals says their serums are below pH 3.5. Would automatically using a 10-20% concentration of vit. C. in your home formulations give you that? I don't know.
And home formulators probably don't use other means to stabilize their formulations - such as adding zinc sulfate. But maybe they don't need to if they make new serums often enough.
I think Darren just raised some points for D-I-Yourselfers to consider.
| pbsadhaka wrote: |
Also, you may find this interesting, but even the oxidized form of ascorbic acid, dehydroascorbic acid, when applied topically is converted back into L-ascorbic acid in the skin. It is the presence of a specific amino acid in the skin, that has been found to recycle ascorbic acid from its oxidized form (dehydroascorbic acid) back into L-ascorbic acid. Hmmm......interesting!
-Darren |
I think here Darren introduces a new point that really doesn't have that much to do with the specific concerns of the original poster - other than it's C-related. However, it's very interesting and he probably didn't want to make a new thread just for this. I'd really like to know more about the oxidation of C, too. And thank you Theresa for the link (here and the other thread). I'm still reading.
It goes from ascorbic acid to monodehydroascorbic acid to dehydroascorbic acid when ascorbic acid oxidizes? At which stage would the amino acid mentioned help recycle back to ascorbic acid? What is the name of this amino acid? And does this mean we'll start seeing vit C serums that include this amino acid, or are they available already? |
I think the amino acid is tyrosine. It is a component of the Cellex C formulation. With every Cellex C purchase I've ever made, I've always got a note from the company that says (not verbatim) that the product may darken but that it will not interfere with the efficacy of the product. From my lay understanding it is the zinc and tyrosine that are the magic bullets. Of course, this is the gospel according to Cellex C, which likely won't be the gospel according to Skinceuticals (and the beat goes on)...
Pudoodles |
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Mon Jan 01, 2007 5:38 pm |
| I do not know what the ph for vit c or l-ascorbic acid is, but I have a sneaking suspicion that it is between 2.00-3.00% naturally. I have been searching the internet and have not been able to find out. However, I am now on a mission to find out. For all of us DIY'ers (I know I usually make up batches of stuff one month at a time since I don't use preservatives) I would be willing to bet that unless you need a long "shelf life" for your product we are pretty safe. No promises, but I am going to check it out. |
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Tue Jan 02, 2007 10:52 am |
| PH for l-ascorbic acid is between 1.6%-2.0%... Where you need to be careful is in the ph of the water. Never use anything except distilled and preferrably double distilled water. |
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