What constitutes "protein" in a hair treatment?
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free skin care · Wed Jan 17, 2007 7:38 am

Ingredient wise, I'm curious to know what constitutes "protein" in a protein treatment, diy or otherwise? I want to make sure I do not overdo it, but I cannot distinguish between boxes that say "moisturizing"; "nourishing"; "revitalizing" etc. I know egg yolk is a protein, but what about coconut oil, olive oil, jojoba, etc?

I just used phytojoba's entire gamut of jojoba products, and they made my hair so dry and brittle (yes, I'm repeating myself ... again!). My hair is doing 50% better today due to a lavender oil treatment and an AMAZING citrus cleansing conditioner (in that order) by Christophe Robinwww.beautyhabit.com that I highly recommend to all of you! But I want to be able to determine from the ingredients on all my new bottles what I should be using to repair my hair, and in what order. Thank you!

--avalange

p.s. my hair, today, is paradoxically shining like lightning and still lifeless and limp.

free skin care · Wed Jan 17, 2007 8:34 am

Hi, I'll start off with: EXTRA Virgin Coconut Oil and Extra Virgin Olive Oil have proteins that haven't been all processed out. Jojoba also provides good nutrients for your hair.

I would suggest you add 1/3 cup honey to 8oz. of your existing shampoo (for now) for bounce, body and volume. It is also a humectant that will moisturize.

Ari

p.s. I don't know anything about the Citrus Cleansing conditioner you mention but I'd think that longterm use of citrus would tend to dry out the hair.

free skin care · Wed Jan 17, 2007 12:45 pm

try making a simple hair mask out of wheat germ oil and jojoba. The wheat germ oil has lots of wheat proteins in it, which are often used in hair products. You can also get hydrolized wheat protein, silk proteins, keratin, and panthenol which I believe can strengthen hair. check on DIY sites.

free skin care · Wed Jan 17, 2007 12:48 pm

Just a warning on the wheat germ oil..it smells!!! Laughing

I made a mask I left on overnight with wheat germ oil and shea butter boy did my hair had that nasty smell in for a few days.

free skin care · Wed Jan 17, 2007 12:59 pm

Hi, I should clarify: I do NOT want to put more protein on my hair. I want to know what ingredients ARE protein treatments for the hair, so hopefully when I think I am moisturizing my hair, I'm not overloading it with protein... thank you so much!

So, coconut oil, wheat germ oil, got it!

--avalange

re: the citrus cleansing cream--it's a once per week treatment for colored hair... I wouldn't use it everyday, you have to leave it in for 5-20 minutes and start with dry hair!

free skin care · Wed Jan 17, 2007 1:04 pm

Here's a list of proteins someone onwww.naturallycurly.com recently posted for me
Cocodimonium hydroxyproply hydrolyzed casein
Cocodimonium hydroxyproply hydrolyzed collagen
Cocodimonium hydroxyproply hydrolyzed hair keratin
Cocodimonium hydroxyproply hydrolyzed keratin
Cocodimonium hydroxyproply hydrolyzed rice protein
Cocodimonium hydroxyproply hydrolyzed silk
Cocodimonium hydroxyproply hydrolyzed soy protein
Cocodimonium hydroxyproply hydrolyzed wheat protein
Cocdoimonium hydroxyproply silk amino acids
Cocoyl hydrolyzed collagen
Cocoyl Hydrolyzed keratin
Hydrolyzed keratin
Hydrolyzed oat flour
Hydrolyzed silk
Hydrolyzed silk protein
Hydrolyzed soy protein
Hydrolyzed wheat protein
Keratin
Potassium cocoyl hydrolyzed collagen
TEA-cocoyl hydrolyzed collagen
TEA-cocoyl hydrolyzed soy protein

HTH Molly Cool

free skin care · Wed Jan 17, 2007 1:14 pm

Very nice Molly,

Great post. I often think I'm may be protein sensitive and that site helped clarify that and being overconditioned too.

I wanted to list ingredients in shampoos and conditioners that had protein in it but didn't know where to start, great list.

free skin care · Wed Jan 17, 2007 2:18 pm

Molly, THANK YOU! This is very helpful!

--avalange

now, how do we find a conditioner that is just purely moisturizing? Wink

free skin care · Wed Jan 17, 2007 3:55 pm

Lots of people's hair really doesnt like protein. Honey is a nice hair moisturiser.

The Longhaircommunityforum is FANTASTIC for recipes for moisturising hair. They have a recipe section, and all kind of variations on DMT's ( deep moisture treatments).

http://tinyurl.com/34xtrh

Good Luck with it!

free skin care · Wed Jan 17, 2007 9:43 pm

I agree with Catski. I think my hair tends to snap off with too much protein. I was using Redken's Anti-Snap and Nioxin Bliss which are both leave-ins to try to increase my hair's elasticity/tensile strength, but I think they made a mess of my hair. I am also suffering from bad water here in LA - rust residue from old pipes, loads of chlorine and God knows what else in the water. My hair has taken a total beating since moving up here over 2 years ago - its a totally different head of hair. Tons of breakage.

So, tomorrow I go to see my stylist to have at least 4 inches, probably more like 6, chopped off of it! I am super p!ssed off about that, because I've been growing my hair out - the idea is to NOT have to chop it off! *Sigh!*

free skin care · Thu Jan 18, 2007 1:59 am

avalange wrote:

Molly, THANK YOU! This is very helpful!

--avalange

now, how do we find a conditioner that is just purely moisturizing? Wink

If you look on either site naturallycurly or longhaircommunity you'll find lots of recs for that.

I've found it particularly difficult to get cone/protein free conditioners off the shelves here though. Best bets here in the UK are supermarket own brands with coconut and almond but they're too heavy, waxy for my fine hair.

I've given up with the high street - just buy specialist stuff online.

free skin care · Thu Jan 18, 2007 3:47 am

Dear Catski and Molly,

Thank you so much for the enlightening tips... Needless to say, I've been avidly reading the longhair forum, which is such a wealth of information. Still confused about certain things (What is DUSTING?), but I figured out I probably need a chelating shampoo to chemically dislodge the salt-scaffolding on my hair shaft that is making it so brittle and so resistant to all products. My hair is MUCH better after the lavender oil treatment, avc rinse, and citrus cleansing cream, but apparently, chelating champoo is the only way to really get hard minerals off of your hair! NOW, where to find one in France? I think after I do that, my phyto-joba regimen will do wonders for my hair (I'm hoping), since it seems to be all about moisture, and the replenishment of moisture, and not so much concerned with dousing your strands with extra protein.

Molly,
Where do you find the specialist stuff online? I couldn't really find anything, other than references to salon treatments that are not sold online. Any leads would be appreciated.

--avalange

free skin care · Thu Jan 18, 2007 4:06 am

avalange wrote:

Molly,
Where do you find the specialist stuff online? I couldn't really find anything, other than references to salon treatments that are not sold online. Any leads would be appreciated.

--avalange

Tricky that Avalange because I'm just buying specialist curly stuff fromwww.naturalfrizz.co.uk - haven't seen any chelating shampoos. Someone gave me this link from the curly site though - seems to have a good range http://www.wantthelook.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=184&products_id=1571
Majorb and Lin23 are good for European shopping questions if they drop by.

free skin care · Thu Jan 18, 2007 5:11 am

Avalange, you can find about recipes for chelating washes, on the LHC.

I think you use a baking powder dilution - this isnt something to be done very often.It strips the hair. Then you have to feed it. If you do a search on it at LHC you'll find out all about it.

free skin care · Thu Jan 18, 2007 5:37 am

[quote="Molly"]

avalange wrote:

Molly,
Where do you find the specialist stuff online? I couldn't really find anything, other than references to salon treatments that are not sold online. Any leads would be appreciated.

--avalange

I've managed to find these, avalange. Hope they're of some help.

I use this site regularly. They're great and have fast delivery (within the UK, that is, not sure how fast they'd be to Europe). You need to join as a member, which is free and easy to do, then you get the discounted prices:
http://www.lookfantastic.com/cgi-bin/lf.storefront/45af67fe006033b82740c0a8d00c06eb/Search/Run
Use discount code "2007" to get £2.50 off when you spend over £30 until 22/1/07

This is also a good website, and they have special offers currently in their Outlet Section for two chelating treatments: http://www.hqhair.com/code/products.asp?PageID=750&SectionID=1652&FeaturedID=14399&FeaturedProduct=10013&pID=3
http://www.hqhair.com/code/products.asp?PageID=750&SectionID=874&FeaturedID=14350&FeaturedProduct=10014&pID=1
Use discount code "beautybible" to get 10% off.

Although I haven't used the products themselves, I understand that the website's a pretty good one: http://www.salon-collective.co.uk/nucleic.php?product_id=1582
http://www.salon-collective.co.uk/lanza.php?product_id=2782

free skin care · Thu Jan 18, 2007 12:09 pm

catski wrote:

Avalange, you can find about recipes for chelating washes, on the LHC.

I think you use a baking powder dilution - this isnt something to be done very often.It strips the hair. Then you have to feed it. If you do a search on it at LHC you'll find out all about it.

Catski,

Here is an interesting thing I found on the LHC, which warns against baking soda if you indeed have my problem:

Quote:

Chelate to remove bonded salt crystals

You have a simple chemistry problem.

1) buildup from the CO washing has coated hair.

2) that salt from applying in a spritz is the worst because the salt crystals (at the molecular level) have now bonded to your hair cuticle and simple shampoo and oiling and conditioning will not get it off.

3) Baking Soda hair washes is a stripping down of the hair to remove basic buildup from product and water....simple minerals, not something like salt. However, baking soda is a salt and when you choose to use it it should never, ever be used as the hair washing agent repetitively just like a regular shampoo. This is highly damaging and drying to hair, especially if hair is inadequately conditioned as a followup to this treatment. Baking Soda stripping should only be used perhaps once every 3 months, when buildup from product such as CO washing, needs to be removed. Also ALWAYS ALWAYS follow this shampoo with a deep conditioning treatment to restore and hydrate and not leave hair in a keenly dry and perhaps brittle and very vulnerable condition. (For example, when I strip my hair of buildup I use 3 Tablespoons baking soda mixed with 3 tablespoons of my shampoo, and I follow with my mayo hair wash, vinegar rinse, cool water rinse, air dry and oil with my Spectrum Naturals Coconut Oil specifically designed for use on hair and skin.)

Baking Soda washing is a clarifying shampoo. The term "clarifying" is different from the term "chelating." (In the past I thought they were interchangeable terms in the hair product world, but they mean different things, have different chemical structures and they do have different purposes which Don instructed me on last night.) CLARIFYING is for removing buildup from water and product. These items tend to lie more on top of the hair, as I understand it. The Lauryl Sulfate (or very similer word on the label). On the other hand, a CHELATING agent has a chemical structure that removes minerals and products that have bonded to the hair's cuticle structure. A chelating agent is used before perming or coloring hair, for example, to ensure a good bond of the next phase of applied chemicals, by way of example.

Just using a simple ACV (Apple Cider Vinegar) rinse is insufficient. It will not reverse the fact that those salt crystals from the Gulf of Mexico have bonded (enmeshed if you will) to your hair's cuticle structure. I am speaking at a molecular level if you were to look under a microscope.

Adding more salt in the way of a Baking Soda stripping shampoo is not enough, nor is any basic shampoo going to do the trick.

You specifically need a Chelating Shampoo which has a chemical compound that allows for the bond to be broken and thus those salt crystals will come off.

I spoke at length last night with a qualified hair professsional and personal friend about your problem and he helped me to come up with a solution for you. I had an idea of the problem and direction of a solution, namely, that the salt crystals have bonded to your cuticle and that's why it's not coming off, but I didn't know of a product off the top of my head that would remove this kind of bonded chemical. And that is the term, bonding.

I want to give specific credit to Don for helping me to be clear on what I'm about to tell you and advise with a set of good products and reliable information. I also have never used a chelating shampoo because I've never needed to, so he sent me an email today that has a list of quality chelating shampoo lines. He also provided me a terrific link from Hair Boutique about removing minerals with a chelating shampoo, and salt is a mineral
http://www.hairboutique.com/tips/tip044.htm

You need to do the following order:

a) chelate shampoo wash hair (wash in slightly warmer water than usual to ensure the cuticle is very open)
b) apple cider vinegar rinse (can use distilled water if your water quality isn't optimum)
c) condition hair deeply with a hot oil treatment (such as outlined in link above from Hair Boutique) or my Mayo Hair Wash (see my hair journal).
d) regular condition
e) apple cider vinegar rinse (use distilled water if your water quality isn't optimum)
f) cool rinse to close pores of skin & cuticle
g) air dry
g) detangle gently, slowly & carefully
h) dust hair to remove damage caused by salt and make a softer & smoother texture to hair. if not, hair may still feel a little crunchy in spots since damage creates rough spots
i) oil hair length. do not oil before dusting if you plan to dust b/c hair will then be glommed a little together making it slightly harder to visualize points of damage immediately after oiling if you want to dust. (see my notes on tlhs.org/hair care/dry for my oiling instructions) if you prefer to dust after oiling length only, then do so a day or two after oil has been completely absorbed.

You should then be on your way.

PRODUCTS (these are 2 products that are considered quality; the aveda line in the hair boutique link above is also very good)

Joico Resolve Chelating Shampoo, http://shop.store.yahoo.com/bhbeauty/gensym-3153.html

Versene Chelating Agents http://www.dow.com/versene/app/pers/shampoo.htm

I want to address the issue of someone posting above that oiling hair length won't help because it repels water.

Cortese wrote: "Vinegar should be okay since that own't lock out water, but I'd be hesitant to recommend ANY oils since oil blocks the absorption of water."

first of all, our natural sebacious glands all over our scalp produces sebum -- oil. If oil were bad for our hair, and water were optimum, we'd be naturally secreting water. This not to mean that water is bad for hair. Also, while it's true that the weights of water and oil don't blend (they will separate in a jar), it's not true that oil on our hair repels and blocks the absorption of water. It is shampoo that's an agent that cuts through oil to allow the ingredients in shampoo to do the cleansing, just like soap to wash grime off of dishes.

Oil is good for hair for optimum moisture. However, if product buildup has occurred and specifically if there's bonding of minerals to the cuticle, no amount of oil is going to eliminate those. In that scenario, all that is going on then by oiling hair length, is more product is being layered on top/built up since the cuticle is blocked by the bonding to fully absorb the applied moisture. However, once the salt crystals are removed, then oiling can do wonders to soften the hair, repair the hair's moisture, softness, elasticity and help the cuticle to get optimum moisture.

I will also add that you should only need to chelate shampoo once, but if you need to do it a second time, that's fine and not completely unusual. But shortly thereafter your hair should be able to uptake your regular conditioner and your hot oil treatments (the egg in mayo is highly moisturizing and the vinegar helps to bind the cuticle; acv rinse pH balances the scalp skin as well as removes product buildup. do not use an ACV rinse of 50/50 vinegar/water to attempt to strip as vinegar in this low dilution can be problematic for both scalp skin and hair however, as a side note, if you have a fungus, say on your feet such as itchiness from athletes foot, this blending ratio can be very helpful for itch relief and pH balancing the skin of feet. skin all over the body is different thicknesses.)

After chelating and hot oil treatment, you ought to be able to return to a regular routine. But you will need to be extra attentive to your hair's moisture and probably an increase in dusting for a period of 2 weeks, give or take. Then you can be foot loose and fancy free, and not worry about your hair at all.

Good luck.

yikes! I am going to look up those chelating recipes right now!

--avalange

free skin care · Thu Jan 18, 2007 12:58 pm

I couldn't find ANY chelating recipes, but I did see that ACV IS a chelating agent, so next time I shampoo, I'm going to experiment with the following:

1. ACV rinse
2. baking soda mixed with a non-sulfate shampoo (I bought Bioderma Node, which is supposed to restore Ph, and I bought some darphin soin d'arome a la chamomile, since my skin freaks out and becomes rosacea-y when I show now, TOO!
3. jojoba conditioning mask (I think it has no proteins)
4. acv rinse

I will let you all know how it goes!

--avalange

Thu Jan 18, 2007 2:57 pm

I found this website that has lots of suggestions as to using apple cider vinegar for your hair. One is to put 2 tablespoons in your favorite shampoo which clarifies, adds shine and helps your color's richness last longer. I suppose this is good if using alot of heavy moisturizers, they are bond to build up.
www.earthclinic.com.

free skin care · Thu Jan 18, 2007 3:55 pm

Avalange, I've used ACV and it works fairly well. I also use lemonjuice. Usually I just fill the sink with water, add ACV or lemonjuice and let my hair soak for a few minutes. Bring a chair! Laughing

By the way, my hair is really long.

Today I also bought some really cheap conditioner on the supermarket. Belherbal, with avocado oil. Made my hari nice and soft, but I don't know if it will last. The brand is supposed to be vegan too.

And, if you have problems with mineral buildup in your pots and pans, coffee machine or water boiler ACV/ordinary vinegar/lemonjuice will remove that too. Laughing

free skin care · Fri Jan 19, 2007 1:51 am

avalange, if you're looking for a treatment that's very moisturising, but without the protein component, try Terax Crema. I'm not sure where you can buy it online, but from memory, it's manufactured in Italy and due to a lot of celeb-based promotion, is becoming more widely available. Some of the range is available at strawberrynet.com, but don't think they usually stock the treatment.

free skin care · Fri Jan 19, 2007 2:26 am

I have not tried it yet, but I have a DIY book here that SWEARS the best hair treatment is whole-egg mayonnaise!! Use something like Best Foods or S&W and just slather it on your hair and sit with a shower cap on. Another great one is to puree avocado and then put that on your hair (I have done that and it is much better than doing egg yolks!)

free skin care · Fri Jan 19, 2007 3:45 am

Hi guys--I'm going to chelate my hair and then try the mayonnaise trick! Hopefully this will work... I've used terax many times and can't say I really liked it--but that was back when I had perfect, shiny, bouncy, healthy hair... [weeping] ... I found that normal hair likes light shampoo and moisturization--kerastase bain satin 1 and lait vital were the best I found. So maybe Terax would be a good conditioner for me now. But I'll have to wait a while, since I've a veritable arsenal of amazing products just waiting to be effective on my poor hair... I have to successfully remove the mineral deposits first.

--avalange

free skin care · Fri Jan 19, 2007 4:00 am

Avalange, mayonnaise is made of eggs, which are protein.

The thing is, people's hair is like their skin, very particular and variable.

Your hair may hate ALL proteins, or not... tricky, isnt it?

free skin care · Fri Jan 19, 2007 4:06 am

Hi catski,

I think my hair was hating all proteins because it has been suffocated by mineral deposits! Apparently nothing can penetrate the hair shaft once they've bonded to the hair. So I'm going to try removing all the minerals and then figure out what my hair likes. I've decided this because I've tried coconut and olive oils, on the one hand, and then I've also tried pure moisturizing masks (no protein) on the other. Same difference. I'm under the impression that chelating-protein-moisturizing-acv rinse will WORK, and if not, I'll ditch the protein! And, by the way, your suggestions have been instrumental in my quest all along the way, thank you!

--avalange

free skin care · Fri Jan 19, 2007 4:47 am

your're welcome.

yes, I see, your hair may like protein once it's been sorted out. It's certainly easier if it does. I hope it works well.

It's a surprise when suddenly hair care becomes as complex as skin care, isnt it.

I've just contacted chagrin valley about their shampoo bars, which the LHC like a lot. My bathroom is full of things that are simply not available in an average UK shop. Apart from the wonderful ACV, honey and Olive Oil.

Did you read about the possibility of using an aspirin mask on the scalp, to clean it of residue, also...

the experiments continue!

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