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MSM - I lost body fat & tighter skin - anyone else too?

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Wild Cat
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Mon Mar 26, 2007 1:45 pm      Reply with quote
Thank you Jakee for posting. Its very informative. I am waiting to start trying MSM and I think I will be more cautious about taking supplements.

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Mon Mar 26, 2007 11:14 pm      Reply with quote
With all the talk about purity with respect to MSM, I tried to find additional information on the web and ran across this information....

This is an excerpt from http://www.purehealthsystems.com/msmqua.html :

"Here is how you can tell if your product is truly pure MSM.

Pour about 4 ounces of pure water into a clear glass.
Add approximately 1,000 milligrams of MSM to the water.
If you have capsules, open the capsule(s) and pour the contents into the water.
If you have tablets, break a tablet in two and place it in the water.
Let the water and MSM sit for 5 to 10 minutes. Tablets take longer to dissolve in water so you might need to give them up to 1/2 hour to completely dissolve. A pure MSM tablet will dissolve in about 3 to 5 minutes in a person's stomach.

* If it is pure MSM, the water will be clear with no powder or residue in it. It will also be slightly bitter to the taste.
* If the water has a powder floating on the surface or a residue on the bottom of the glass which will not easily dissolve when you spin the glass, it is not pure MSM.
* If the water is cloudy or feels a little gritty or chalky when you take a sip, it is not pure MSM.
* If the water tastes sweet or salty, again it is not pure MSM.

The following three paragraphs are taken from a recent communiqué with one of our customers: We have recently become aware of an exception to the above test. Since proposing the test, three of our customers have called us complaining that our own MSM did not completely dissolve in water. This, of course was quite upsetting to me and we took back two of the batches of MSM and have contacted the third person. When I received the MSM back, I tried the test here in Oregon and both batches quickly and completely dissolved leaving the water clear.

Two out of these three people live in Florida. This got me to thinking. I presume that quite a few people have tried this test. Three people, that I know of, have tried it and our own MSM did not completely dissolve. Two of them live in Florida. Hmm.

Much of the water table in Florida contains significant amounts of limestone. Enough calcium and magnesium carbonate, along with other minerals, have probably dissolved in their water so that it is close to the saturation point and cannot absorb much of the MSM.

If you live in an area with hard water and the MSM does not completely dissolve, you might want to obtain a bottle of steam distilled water and try it again before coming to any conclusions. Keep in mind that the presence of other substances does not necessarily mean that the product is of lower quality. A person needs to use common sense in ascertaining the approximate ratio of MSM to other substances..."

----
And then this excerpt from http://www.oralchelation.com/faq/answers62.htm
is a long page discussing the validity of the "purity test" which includes a section entitled "The Claim That Pure MSM Will Sink Is False!" and the following excerpted paragraph:

"....if you put different sizes of particles of MSM into water, some particle sizes will float, while others will sink. Also MSM will dissolve, or not dissolve, depending on the temperature of the water. It does NOT dissolve well in cold water, but any MSM (small or large crystal) will dissolve in hot water. This amount of heating will not harm the MSM."
Wild Cat
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Tue Mar 27, 2007 10:38 am      Reply with quote
Thanks Havana8,
Very useful info but do not know what to believe anymore. It is kind of scary there are so many unethical sellers trying to profit from clueless consumers. Sigh... Mad

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Tue Mar 27, 2007 12:18 pm      Reply with quote
Thanks, Havana8. I did find that MSM doesn't dissolve easily in cold water. I have to stir vigorously and crush the clumps up in to smaller sizes with a spoon. I guess now I have to try these tests with the NSI brand to see if it will pass or not.
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Tue Mar 27, 2007 1:42 pm      Reply with quote
May I know is this MSM the same thing to help you conjunctions?
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Wed Mar 28, 2007 9:17 am      Reply with quote
havana8 wrote:
Keep in mind that the presence of other substances does not necessarily mean that the product is of lower quality. A person needs to use common sense in ascertaining the approximate ratio of MSM to other substances..."

....if you put different sizes of particles of MSM into water, some particle sizes will float, while others will sink. Also MSM will dissolve, or not dissolve, depending on the temperature of the water. It does NOT dissolve well in cold water, but any MSM (small or large crystal) will dissolve in hot water. This amount of heating will not harm the MSM."


While it may seem that common sense would say that 99% MSM and 1% magnesium stearate or silicon dioxide would be just fine, the problem seems to be that the MSM is coated on the outside with these substances thus allowing them to flow more easily which is why encapsulators use these substances. It is this coating that seems to keep the MSM from dissolving and from being fully absorbed.

It is true that some individual particles of pure MSM may float while most goes to the bottom of a glass of water. However, it should all dissolve with no residue within a few minutes in warm water. I am not familiar with the results in ultra-hard water, so trying to dissolve in distilled water may be the best test.

However, what I have seen when excipients are added is that the entire capsule contents of MSM will float and it will never dissolve whether left for days, or heated, or whatever. In those cases, I would personally want something that is more soluble.
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Wed Mar 28, 2007 9:28 am      Reply with quote
starter2expert wrote:
May I know is this MSM the same thing to help you conjunctions?


Hi starter2expert! I think you are asking if this is the same MSM that is used to help joints and if so, then yes you are correct. If not, please explain what a conjunction is as I am unsure. Thanks!
Wild Cat
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Sat Mar 31, 2007 9:53 am      Reply with quote
pcnetwrx wrote:
havana8 wrote:
Keep in mind that the presence of other substances does not necessarily mean that the product is of lower quality. A person needs to use common sense in ascertaining the approximate ratio of MSM to other substances..."

....if you put different sizes of particles of MSM into water, some particle sizes will float, while others will sink. Also MSM will dissolve, or not dissolve, depending on the temperature of the water. It does NOT dissolve well in cold water, but any MSM (small or large crystal) will dissolve in hot water. This amount of heating will not harm the MSM."


While it may seem that common sense would say that 99% MSM and 1% magnesium stearate or silicon dioxide would be just fine, the problem seems to be that the MSM is coated on the outside with these substances thus allowing them to flow more easily which is why encapsulators use these substances. It is this coating that seems to keep the MSM from dissolving and from being fully absorbed.

It is true that some individual particles of pure MSM may float while most goes to the bottom of a glass of water. However, it should all dissolve with no residue within a few minutes in warm water. I am not familiar with the results in ultra-hard water, so trying to dissolve in distilled water may be the best test.

However, what I have seen when excipients are added is that the entire capsule contents of MSM will float and it will never dissolve whether left for days, or heated, or whatever. In those cases, I would personally want something that is more soluble.


Hello pcnetwrx, does that mean capsule form is probably inferior/less soluble than powder or crystal form?
Thanks first,
Wild Cat

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Wild Cat
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Sat Mar 31, 2007 9:54 am      Reply with quote
bkkgirl wrote:
Thanks, Havana8. I did find that MSM doesn't dissolve easily in cold water. I have to stir vigorously and crush the clumps up in to smaller sizes with a spoon. I guess now I have to try these tests with the NSI brand to see if it will pass or not.


bbkgirl,
My MSM also wouldn't dissolve easily unless in warm water with vigorous stirring. Have you tested out the NSI brand to see if it sinks?
Thanks first,
Wild Cat

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Sat Mar 31, 2007 4:28 pm      Reply with quote
This company makes the best MSM on the market.

http://www.sunfood.com/cgi-bin/order/index.cgi?id=874576510953&d=single&item_id=0500&c=Supplements&sc=MSM&tc=
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Sat Mar 31, 2007 4:37 pm      Reply with quote
Wild Cat wrote:
Hello pcnetwrx, does that mean capsule form is probably inferior/less soluble than powder or crystal form?
Thanks first,
Wild Cat


That would depend on the capsules. There ARE capsules being sold that are pure without the excipients. But those being sold in most stores have the excipients, don't dissolve, and are therefore inferior in my opinion.
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Sat Mar 31, 2007 4:43 pm      Reply with quote
Lucinda wrote:
This company makes the best MSM on the market.
(link removed)


What would lead you to that conclusion? The price is more than double what is available for the purest US-manufactured MSM. And since they don't list who the real manufacturer is (Lignisul or OptiMSM), I would conclude that it is most likely of Chinese or Indian origin. There are only 2 US manufacturers of MSM despite the great abundance of "brands", and those that use one of those two generally say so on their label.
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Sat Mar 31, 2007 5:34 pm      Reply with quote
Wild Cat wrote:
bkkgirl wrote:
Thanks, Havana8. I did find that MSM doesn't dissolve easily in cold water. I have to stir vigorously and crush the clumps up in to smaller sizes with a spoon. I guess now I have to try these tests with the NSI brand to see if it will pass or not.


bbkgirl,
My MSM also wouldn't dissolve easily unless in warm water with vigorous stirring. Have you tested out the NSI brand to see if it sinks?
Thanks first,
Wild Cat


Yup, I poured the content of the NSI MSM in to hot water (not just warm - I have a hot water maker with hot water ready at any moment). I stirred it vigorously, and it would not dissolve and leave the water clear like my powder MSM Lignisul brand I got on ebay. It did a bit better than pouring it in to room temp water, but it left a lot of white residues floating around in the water. I was too scared to drink that water so I dumped it out.
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Sat Mar 31, 2007 7:25 pm      Reply with quote
pcnetwrx wrote:
Wild Cat wrote:
Hello pcnetwrx, does that mean capsule form is probably inferior/less soluble than powder or crystal form?
Thanks first,
Wild Cat


That would depend on the capsules. There ARE capsules being sold that are pure without the excipients. But those being sold in most stores have the excipients, don't dissolve, and are therefore inferior in my opinion.


Hello pcnetwrx,
Sorry for sounding like an idiot, what excipients I should be looking out for? The MSM I am taking now states its in a gelatin capsule (gelatin, purified water) and vegetable grade magnesium stearate (lubricant).
Thanks first,
Wild Cat

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Sun Apr 01, 2007 6:14 am      Reply with quote
Wild Cat wrote:
Hello pcnetwrx,
Sorry for sounding like an idiot, what excipients I should be looking out for? The MSM I am taking now states its in a gelatin capsule (gelatin, purified water) and vegetable grade magnesium stearate (lubricant).
Thanks first,
Wild Cat


The vegetable grade magnesium stearate that you listed is an excipient as is also silicon dioxide. There may be others.

An excipient is defined as an inert substance used as a diluent or vehicle for a drug. They are supposedly used to stabilize drugs or to bulk up a product for "more accurate dosing". But the main reason that capsule makers use them is to make the substances that they are encapsulating more free-flowing so that they are easier to handle. Note that their concern is to make things easier for themselves--not what is best for the consumer.

It is possible to make MSM capsules without excipients at all, and some brands are available like that, but they are few and far between. My guess is that the brands without excipients would comprise less than 10% of the brands out there, but that is just a guess.
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Sun Apr 01, 2007 12:43 pm      Reply with quote
Still in the pursuit of more information on the MSM front. I found this very interesting particularly upon review of the ingredients of the MSM brands that were independently evaluated and received the seal of approval....

From their website....

----
ConsumerLab.com, LLC ("CL") is the leading provider of independent test results and information to help consumers and healthcare professionals evaluate health, wellness, and nutrition products. It publishes results of its tests at www.consumerlab.com

Here is a small excerpt from their website on how they do their product reviews:

Product Reviews:
Product Reviews are CL's independent tests of multiple brands of products claiming to have the same key ingredient. Product Reviews have the following features:
• Exclusively directed by CL.
• Products tested are purchased independently by CL at the retail level (stores, mail order, online, etc.). CL does not accept product samples from manufacturers for Product Reviews and CL may select samples at any time during the year (to avoid sampling bias).
Products are selected by CL to reflect popular brands in the market as well as a selection of smaller brands.
• Blinded tests are conducted by academic and commercial laboratories selected by CL for expertise in the type of testing needed for each product. These facilities are generally FDA inspected, follow GLP (good laboratory practice) protocols, are accredited by outside groups and/or participate in method validation programs. CL's expert research staff closely evaluates the work of these laboratories.
• After a Product Review is completed, results for products selected for testing by CL are available online to subscribers. Products that have passed the Voluntary Certification Program (see below) are also listed in respective Product Reviews as well as posted for non-subscribers.
• Brands that "Pass" may carry the CL Seal of Approval upon acceptance by the manufacturer of the CL Seal Use License Agreement (described below).
• Product Reviews are repeated periodically (approximately every 24 to 36 months) for each product category. However, CL may re-test brands at any time. A change in a brand's test results will be reflected in CL's Web site and will affect eligibility for the CL certification seal.
• Full reports of Product Reviews are available in Product Review Technical Reports sold by CL.

Testing Criteria and Methods:
Products are tested for the following:
• Identity: Does the product meet recognized standards of quality and does the product meet the level of quality claimed on the label?
• Strength (quantity): Does the product contain the amount of ingredient claimed on the label?
• Purity: Is the product free of common contaminants?
• Availability: Does the product break apart properly so that it may be used by the body? [See ConsumerLab.com Home Test for Disintegration for how to test your supplements]

These criteria must be met to be considered Approved by CL. If a manufacturer seeks to use the CL Seal of Approval, the product will be tested for these criteria every twelve months based on a random sample purchased on the open market.

Specific testing criteria vary by product and are selected on the basis of high consumer importance and a lack of ongoing monitoring or reporting by government or independent organizations.

CL seeks to use the most advanced and appropriate test methods. Each Product Review provides a link to the methods used. Below are examples of test methods used:
• AA (atomic absorption)
• CE (capillary electrophoresis)
• Gas chromatography with detection by FID (flame ionization detector), ECD (electron capture detector) and MS or MS/MS
• HPLC (high performance liquid chromatography) in conjunction with a variety of detection methods including IR (infra-red), photodiode array, ELSD (evaporative light scatter detector), MS (mass spectroscopy), and MS/MS (tandem mass spectroscopy)
• HP-TLC (high performance thin-layer chromatography)
• ICP/MS (inductively coupled plasma/mass spectroscopy)
• Microscopy
• MS (mass spectroscopy)

(There is way more info on this at http://www.consumerlab.com/aboutcl.asp)

This next section is from the product review for Glucosamine, Chondroitin and MSM both as a combination supplement and as individual supplements, i.e. MSM only.....


HOW PRODUCTS WERE EVALUATED:

How Products were Selected:
Products selected represent those commonly sold and/or available nationally in the U.S. ConsumerLab.com purchased products on the open market through retail stores, on-line retailers, and direct sales or multi-level marketing companies. Products were not accepted directly from manufacturers.

Testing Method:
Products containing glucosamine or chondroitin were first analyzed by High Performance Liquid Chromatography (HPLC). Products that did not pass this initial test were re-analyzed in a second independent laboratory using a colorimetric titration method (CPC) (for chondroitin) or capillary electrophoresis (CE) (for glucosamine).

Products containing MSM were tested for their claimed amount of MSM and for DMSO. Analysis for MSM and DMSO was performed using a Gas Chromatography (GC) method. Products not having passing levels of MSM or DMSO were then re-tested in a second independent laboratory using a comparable GC method.

Disintegration of non-chewable, non-capsule, non-enteric coated and non-time-release formulations were analyzed utilizing USP (United States Pharmacopeia) <2040> recommendations entitled "Disintegration and Dissolution of Nutritional Supplements."

Analyses were conducted in independent laboratories to which the brand identities of the products were not disclosed. Any product not passing an initial analysis was retested in a second independent laboratory on at least one of the criteria on which it did not initially pass.

Passing Score: *
To pass testing, a product must meet the following criteria:

All Products Tested:

1. Meet recommended USP parameters for disintegration for vitamin supplements (excluding capsule, enteric coated, chewable and time-release products).
2. Meet all FDA labeling requirements.

Glucosamine:
Contain at least 100%, and not more than 150%, of claimed amount of the appropriate claimed form(s) of glucosamine.

Chondroitin:
Contain at least 100%, and not more than 150%, of claimed amount of total chondroitin.

MSM:
Contain at least 100%, and not more than 125%, of claimed amount of MSM and less than 0.05% DMSO (%wt/wt).

A product passed if it passed each applicable criterion in any one of the analyses.


* Passing scores allow for specific margins of technical error associated with each analysis. ConsumerLab.com reserves the right to disqualify a product at any time from passing if it considers such product to present a safety risk or to provide misleading or inaccurate label information.


Granted they only tested 9 MSM Only Products, but from their website, here are the ones that received the Consumer Lab Testing Seal of Approval along with their ingredients....

CVS® Pharmacy 1000 mg MSM, Bones & Joints
Ingredients: MSM (Methylsulfonylmethane) 1000 mg; Other Ingredients: Methylsulfonylmethane, Cellulose, Stearic Acid, Magnesium Stearate, Silicon Dioxide.

Member's Mark® MSM 1000 mg Dietary Supplement
Ingredients: MSM (Methylsulfonylmethane) 1000 mg; Other Ingredients: Methylsulfonylmethane, Dicalcium Phosphate, Stearic Acid, Cellulose, Silicon Dioxide, Magnesium Stearate.
Overall Results: Approved (passed)
Contained Claimed Amount of Ingredient: Yes
Disintegrated Properly: Yes

Natural Balance® MSM, Supports Joint & Muscle Health, 120 Tablets, 1000 mg each
Ingredients: MSM (Methylsulfonylmethane) 1000 mg; Other Ingredients: Microcrystalline cellulose, silicon dioxide, magnesium stearate, stearic acid.
Overall Results: Approved (passed)
Contained Claimed Amount of Ingredient: Yes
Disintegrated Properly: Yes

Spring Valley® MSM, Methylsulfonylmethane, 1000 mg
Ingredients: MSM (Methylsulfonylmethane) (340 mg Organic Sulfur) 1000 mg; Other Ingredients: Gelatin, Vegetable Magnesium Stearate, Silica.
Overall Results: Approved (passed)
Contained Claimed Amount of Ingredient: Yes
Disintegrated Properly: Yes

Spring Valley® MSM, Methylsulfonylmethane, 500 mg
Ingredients: MSM (Methylsulfonylmethane) (170 mg Organic Sulfur) 500 mg; Other Ingredients: Gelatin, Cellulose (Plant Origin), Vegetable Magnesium Stearate, Silica.
Overall Results: Approved (passed)
Contained Claimed Amount of Ingredient: Yes
Disintegrated Properly: NA

TriMedica® Pure MSM™ Liquid
Igredients: Methylsulfonylmethane 390 mg; Other Ingredients: Purified water, Sodium benzoate, Potassium sorbate.
Overall Results: Approved (passed)
Contained Claimed Amount of Ingredient: Yes
Disintegrated Properly: NA

Twinlab® MSM (Methylsulfonylmethane)
Ingredients: Calories 2.5, Total Carbohydrate 0.5 g, Methylsulfonylmethane 1000 mg; Other Ingredients: Cellulose, Croscarmellose Sodium, Silica, Magnesium Stearate, Titanium Dioxide, Triacetin, Magnesium Silicate, Purified Water, Carnauba Wax.
Overall Results: Approved (passed)
Contained Claimed Amount of Ingredient: Yes
Disintegrated Properly: Yes

Vitamin World® MSM 1500 mg Dietary Supplement
Ingredients: Methylsulfonylmethane (510 mg Organic Sulfur) 1500 mg; Other Ingredients: Dicalcium Phosphate, Silica, Vegetable Magnesium Stearate, Cellulose Coating, Oil of Anise.
Overall Results: Approved (passed)
Contained Claimed Amount of Ingredient: Yes
Disintegrated Properly: Yes

Vitamin World® Naturally Inspired™ MSM Methylsulfonylmethane 750 mg Dietary Supplement
Ingredients: Methylsulfonylmethane (255 mg Organic Sulfur) 750 mg; Other Ingredients: Dicalcium Phosphate, Gelatin, Glycerin, Vegetable Magnesium Stearate, Silica.
Overall Results: Approved (passed)
Contained Claimed Amount of Ingredient: Yes
Disintegrated Properly: NA

http://www.consumerlab.com/results/gluco.asp
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Sun Apr 01, 2007 12:55 pm      Reply with quote
After reading this a couple of days ago, I picked some up. Always on the lookout for great supplements! I also nabbed some Noni Juice, and Hyaluronic Acid.

I wish I would have read this thread again before I bought to be able to compare brands. Doesn't really matter I guess, seeing how Walmart only carries one brand....but then again......

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Sun Apr 01, 2007 1:02 pm      Reply with quote
in case someone is taking blood-thinning drugs, the same website mentioned this under Cautions and Concerns....

MSM is generally safe when taken at recommended dosage levels, but be aware that MSM occasionally causes nausea, diarrhea, or headache. MSM may also have an aspirin-like effect and shouldn't be used by patients already taking blood-thinning drugs, unless medically supervised. The safety of MSM hasn't been evaluated for children or for women who are pregnant or breast-feeding, so individuals in these groups should avoid using MSM.
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Sun Apr 01, 2007 2:32 pm      Reply with quote
I just started my boyfriend on MSM. He reported that he got drunk more quickly after taking MSM for a week. He didn't know if it was from MSM or not, but I think it might be since I read another guy reporting that MSM helped to lower his alcohol tolerance level. I told my boyfriend to keep a close eye on this. It's a great revelation. I don't drink enough to know if this is a possible effect.
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Sun Apr 01, 2007 2:36 pm      Reply with quote
Thanks Havana8 for posting. Very informative but I am even more confused now. The report from Consumerlab seems to be okay with fillers...? Am I interpreting this wrong? Confused

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Sun Apr 01, 2007 6:26 pm      Reply with quote
Wild Cat wrote:
Thanks Havana8 for posting. Very informative but I am even more confused now. The report from Consumerlab seems to be okay with fillers...? Am I interpreting this wrong? Confused


Since fillers/excipients are common in the industry, labs are not going to fault companies for using them. So the choice is really up to you. Do You want fillers/excipients, or do you want only pure product? Both are available so it is a consumer's choice. You already are aware that those with the excipients don't readily dissolve in water. Wouldn't that be of at least some concern even though a lab might say that it's ok?
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Sun Apr 01, 2007 6:30 pm      Reply with quote
havana8 wrote:
in case someone is taking blood-thinning drugs, the same website mentioned this under Cautions and Concerns....

MSM is generally safe when taken at recommended dosage levels, but be aware that MSM occasionally causes nausea, diarrhea, or headache. MSM may also have an aspirin-like effect and shouldn't be used by patients already taking blood-thinning drugs, unless medically supervised. The safety of MSM hasn't been evaluated for children or for women who are pregnant or breast-feeding, so individuals in these groups should avoid using MSM.


It is true that people taking blood thinners should be more cautious, but there are people that do take both. It is still a good idea to work with your doctor because he might be able to reduce the amount of blood thinner drugs that are required, which would be nice.

Another precaution is to discontinue taking MSM a couple of days prior to any blood tests because MSM can cause false positives on liver tests for some people.
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Sun Apr 01, 2007 6:58 pm      Reply with quote
Wild Cat wrote:
Thanks Havana8 for posting. Very informative but I am even more confused now. The report from Consumerlab seems to be okay with fillers...? Am I interpreting this wrong? Confused


I don't think they are commenting on whether or not fillers are okay. More that despite containing minute amounts of fillers, the Consumer Lab report and their independent battery of tests indicate that the brands listed are still effective based on the following criteria:

1. that the product met recognized standards of quality and contained the level of quality claimed on the label
2. that the product contained the amount of ingredient claimed on the label (it's not like the amount of MSM was shorted)
3. the product was found to be free of common contaminants such DMSO
4. the product was found to break apart properly so that it may be available and used by the body

Is that what you got from it?
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Sun Apr 01, 2007 7:04 pm      Reply with quote
Just all the MSM brands Consumer Lab reviewed contained fillers in their ingredient list. Some actually include many even though they passed the tests. This is why I am confused about whether fillers are good or no good for the body. Confused

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Sun Apr 01, 2007 7:47 pm      Reply with quote
It reads that these harmless fillers did not compromise the amount of MSM in each capsule, nor the purity of the MSM, nor its availability to the body... or at least that's how I read it.
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