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Wed Feb 28, 2007 8:17 pm |
librarygirl wrote: |
Boski's post helped to shed a lot of light on the actives that we've been taught to use. There's no doubt that there seems to be a lot of retinoid hijackers on MUA. I just went through the skincare discussion forum on MUA and found a handful of the same people constantly pushing retinoids for anti-aging. I know that there are published papers concluding the benefits of retinoids on sun damaged skin (such as wrinkles and spots) but I also agree that too much of anything is not good.
Boski's post prompted me to go to the 302skincare.com site and check their discussions. I found this which is quite an eye-opener considering I was using Cellex C daily and Retin A on a semi-daily basis to prevent wrinkling and sagging skin:
"Skin is imperfectly understood. In skin science, we deal in half-truths because of imperfect understanding. For many aspects of it we have no models or those models are skewed. But this much is certain – to provide a continuous acid bath for your client/patients is detrimental to their long term skin health, leads to premature aging of their skin and all the visible consequences of that. It carries the idea of inducing a repair process to extreme and the results can be debilitating and unsightly and worse –irreversible.
Other practices that will accelerate the skin’s aging process need mentioning – for example, applying too many topicals, too often. Also, excess scrubs – a daily abrasive scrub is ruinous to the skin. Retinoids applied daily are an invitation to skin thinning, weakening and sagging skin.
Daily application of antioxidants will likely lead to the same poor result. Antioxidants quickly form pro-oxidants on the skin (the chemistry forms peroxides – which create the very free radicals antioxidants are supposed to combat). It is not our intention to rain on everyone’s parade, but rather to shed some light on the way the skin works, or at least works as best as we can observe and test."
I think that the very acids that supposedly help us to look better may also thin the skin through exfoliation resulting in more sun damage. But then this is IMHO. I am currently trying to decrease my retinoid usage to 1x a week and using AHA to 2x a week. THe rest of the nights, I will be keeping my face bare. Diligence in sunscreen usage and trying to cut out processed foods. I read that older people have much less damage or wrinkles on their faces when they have a diet high in green vegetables regardless of whether they smoked or not (http://www.mercola.com/2001/apr/14/wrinkles_vegetables.htm). This is not surprising to me. My family is Chinese and whenever I see a lot of Chinese in Asia their skin is perfect. Not necessarily because they stay out of the sun which I'm sure it helps but I see that they eat less sweets (reliance more on fruits and beans esp. in desserts) and for every ounce of meat you eat you will also need to eat same ounces in leafy vegetables. Fungus, beans, and root vegetables are also a staple. I'm totally Americanized and my parents fed us Chinese food all the time but they never really forced us to eat the vegetables if we hated it. My husband is from Hong Kong/Macau and he thought it was weird for me not to eat vegetables. I always ate the meats and that would be it. His family (I'm talking about ALL of them) has smooth, bright, young-looking skin. I don't see them eating all these cakes, candies, chips, etc. like we do. His mom always forced him to eat his greens. If he ate a half plate of non-greens he would need to eat another half-plate of greens.
One experiment I tried 2 weeks ago: Even though I used the acids for the past 18 months, I found that when I ate a 90% gluten-free diet (ok, difficult to go gluten free if you rely on oyster sauce or soy sauce) for one week while eliminating processed foods, candies, cakes, etc. and increasing boiled vegetables, chicken, fish, water, exercise,etc., my skin wasn't as bloated and it looked 10 years younger b/c there were less lines and sagging. It was tight! You can see the contours of my face and the bags were hardly there. I'm not kidding. It was really hard to stick to this diet but I saw a huge difference. So all these cosmetics, acids, cleansers, etc. are not really the fountain of youth they claim to be. It has to be more internal.
Thanks for listening while I was on my soapbox. I don't want to sound like a broken record about diet and all but I swear that maybe Perricone is onto something when he talks about inflammation and food. |
You are totally right about diet!
My homeopath swears by vegetables, as a matter of fact he's like 80 years old and only eats raw veggies - only!!!
I've never been able to go more than 3 meals on his plan! LOL
however my diet with him consists of soy, veggies, no gluten, no dairy,and OK on complex carbs and selected fruits (usually separated from the meal itself.
I feel much better on this than a regular diet - with lots of proteins, etc.
At the end of the day- your skin will reflect what you put in your body, it only makes sense.
I am not a health nut as I still smoke... I kick myself regularly to quit!
Baby steps!!
Thanks |
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Thu Mar 01, 2007 10:03 am |
Very good observation Odile Diet should come first, then sunscreen, then topicals, used in moderation.
I cut back since last week myself. First I took one full week off all actives.
My daily routine usind to be Retin A (up to 0.05%) in the evening and 10% AHA and acidic Vit C (L'ascorbic acid) in the morning (followed by Cetaphil and sunblock)
Now my routine is Renova 0.025 and neutral Vit C (ascorbyl palmitate) only 2x weekly each in the evening used on seperate days. I take three nightes off and use only Cetaphil blended with a drop of avocado oil. In the morning just Cetaphil lotion and sunblock.
My skin feels so good now. No more dryness in the morning upon awakening, and especially not any more after cleansing. My skin used to feel SO tight. |
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Thu Mar 01, 2007 12:09 pm |
That is great Monica. |
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Fri Mar 02, 2007 8:31 am |
carolb69 wrote: |
I was just reading peoples reviews on MUA for Skinceuticals C E Ferulic. It has some great comments. One lady says she's used it religously for 5 yrs and her skin hasnt aged in that time.There were other long term users posting good results too. So if all these long term users are saying their skin looks great how can it be bad?? |
I guess there are three or more ways you could interpret that.
Everyone's really useless at judging how they, themselves look. I really don't trust it anymore even with myself. I'm going in for half face tests more and more.
Or maybe L-Ascorbic is an exception because it gets used up in the skin so quickly that the topical * spam alert * theory doesn't apply.
Or and here's a fun one; the low calory diet that prolongs life is now said to work because the body doesn't have the energy to carry out oxidative processes - it stops producing free radicals; it's stunned into not aging. Maybe the skin is equally stunned out of it's usual aging processes. We're pickling ourselves. |
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Fri Mar 02, 2007 1:13 pm |
Molly wrote: |
Maybe the skin is equally stunned out of it's usual aging processes. We're pickling ourselves. |
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Sat Mar 03, 2007 12:07 am |
Molly wrote: |
Or and here's a fun one; the low calory diet that prolongs life is now said to work because the body doesn't have the energy to carry out oxidative processes - it stops producing free radicals; it's stunned into not aging. |
Sorry I had flu with a very high temperature when I wrote that As someone pointed out; if you don't carry out oxidative processes you die. True! I think I meant less and subsequently less free radicals. Saw it in a documentary - it's all a blur now I'm better.
I still think we might be pickling ourselves though |
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Sat Mar 03, 2007 3:44 am |
MOLLY, GET WELL VERY SOON !!! |
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Sat Mar 03, 2007 4:02 am |
Molly wrote: |
I still think we might be pickling ourselves though |
you're even more fun when you're in a fever! |
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Mon Mar 05, 2007 9:42 pm |
I am new to this website, but I feel like I have found the kindred souls out there like me: product junkie etc. My family used to say, if they make it, she will buy it. I just believe in trying new things. My new thing this year (after having some time off due to a hysterectomy- and adding a hormone patch and topical testerone - could this be causing my problems????) was to improve my skin. A regular sun bather like most of us my age until 35...then I moved to Colorado where ample sun and dryness seemed to age me a tad faster than I like. I still don't look my age (or so my friends lie to me) but I felt it was time to do better. I went to the a local cosmetic derm who recomended Renova (.02%) nightly, and a VitC serum (by IS Clinicals C-15 serum) in the am, followed by IS Clinicals Moisturising Complex. After the first nite of the "regimen" the VitC BURNED my face and the Moisturising Complex felt like it sat on top of my skin, and burned and the sunscreen also burned. I whooped it up, thinking I am at the beginning of my skin becoming wonderful! After 3 weeks of constant use, as prescribed, my mouth area was sore and constantly peeling, chapped and red...the rest of my face just looked rough and irritated, and the lines (I was SO counting on getting softer) looked deeper and as if in need of a great rest. After deciding that maybe a day off here and there would be good, I did just that, but resuming the regimen put me back to square one...only worse - I could not see ANY improvement! Especially in the area where eye bags meet cheeks...lines there I never had. What have I done.
The strange thing to me, is the Renova feels good...everything else burns like crazy. After 2 months, modified use (six days on, one off and totally abandoning the Vit C serum) I decided to get a facial....MISTAKE! My face looks burned and is peeling...The redness has subsided but....I am at a loss for words. The facialist knew I was on Renova etc...and what problems I have been experiencing...
So finding this thread has been a god send. But what should I do? You all here seem to have more experience in this than I do. I am feeling like my ok good looking skin is now a mess...and that is something that really bothers me - since I have been lucky my whole life with a few breakouts here and there and nothing major.
I read about the 302 skincare line, and I too, am tempted. Maybe I am not the kind of skin that can use acids...people tell me hang in there, its bad for a while and then you'll see - but I am not happy looking like I do and dealing with the discomfort on a daily basis.
Help please suggest anything. Diet is fairly normal...lots of water, protein and fresh veggies..(ok ice cream now and then)I have not discovered any food related issues with my skin. Colorado is sunny...and dry....it is a constant struggle to keep hydrated - someone suggested that I sound like my skin needs a ton of hydration - but at this point I am willing to try ANYTHING. I know I can't perform miracles, but I do beleive there is a way to meet halfway!
Thanks EVERYONE - |
_________________ If it spins, I'll ride it. Combo skin in a dry sunny climate....trying desperately to return to age 30! |
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Mon Mar 05, 2007 10:25 pm |
Maybe you should scrap the renova and try something gentler like Avene Retinaldehyde products. Prescription products may be too much for your skin. Avene's gentler but i cant even use that everynight. 3 nights seems to be working for me,no more irritation
Did you start all these actives at once? If you did thats not good,its too much at once. Also did you build up gradually with the Renova? Probably better to build up and get used to that before trying to add vit c as you're skin is sensitive from the renova by the sounds of it and addind strong acidic products on top will inflame skin even more.
Dont worry we've all learnt the hard way probably, less is more.
P.s IS Clinical C Serum really irritated my skin,it turned red on application. Im way preferring SC C E Ferulic. |
_________________ 39, in Australia, using retin a, Skin actives I Bright and Antiaging Cream, change sunscreen regularly currently. |
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Tue Mar 06, 2007 12:10 am |
Hi Bikerchic
It all seems too much - Renova daily is very extreme and as Carol says adding a lot of new actives plus a new moisturiser which probably also contains some actives and a sunscreen which can be irritating on top will all add up.
I'd suggest giving it all up for a few weeks and letting your skin heal itself. Try some bio oils instead of moisturiser during that time.
When your skin's feeling less erratic you could start the renova again (or Avene which is gentler) but use it less frequently. Use a C serum if it doesn't irritate you, but I couldn't do that most mornings after retinoids.
What sunscreen are you using?
In the end you might be like me and find that even using retinoids less often makes you too sun sensitive in which case there are other options, which I'm testing out now. |
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Tue Mar 06, 2007 2:14 am |
Hi bikerchic,
Pretty much what Molly said about laying off stuff until your skin heals and then going easy.
What I would add is try and get some emu oil and hyaluronic acid. I messed my skin up a bit a few weeks ago and it really helps with tightness peeling and irritation.
PSF or dianayvonne.com do good HA and you can get emu ultra or regular from lbprocessors.com
Welcome by hte way! |
_________________ my new jewellery website:www.gentle-medusa.com |
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Sun Mar 11, 2007 1:52 am |
I found this is a very interesting thread, and Molly I hope you can still update us on your experiment.
Bosksi, thank you also for bringing us Dr. Huberts opinions
I am really learning a lot in this forum, since I am quite new at skincare. I wonder if anyone can recomend us any good c-ester serum or cream, since l-ascorbic are the ones to be more popular here at EDS. |
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Sun Mar 11, 2007 2:27 am |
Hi Araia
Unfortunately I can't really recommend a good C-ester serum. It's become a bit of a quest for me. I've used Professional Solutions Triple C and Janson Beckett's C&C in the past, but they don't have anything like the big bang of L-ascorbic serums. I've been trying Tetrahexyldecyl Ascorbate the last few weeks (can't find a commercial one so it's just homemade mixed in with oils) because that's supposed to be more successful for collagen stimulation than the previous esters, but still don't notice much.
As for the rest of my acid/retinoid free trip I have been meaning to update and will do later. |
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Sun Mar 11, 2007 2:17 pm |
Hi Molly - Im looking forward to you update
How often do you use Vit C? I ordered some MAP a couple days ago which Im going to add to a lotion. |
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Sun Mar 11, 2007 7:53 pm |
I was inspired by Molly's experiment to give it a try myself.
It's been easier (and beneficial) for me to use acids and retinoids less frequently in the dead of winter anyway. But I noticed after about a week passed without applying Avene Retrinal .1%, my pores started looking clogged. Using it once a week corrected this. I'm not generally acne-prone so others who are may have trouble backing off retinoids as much. Also, I couldn't give up PSF Pumpkin Enzyme Peel for more than a couple of weeks or else my skin looked dull. Leave-on AHAs (in the recent past I've used SkinCeuticals Anti-Wrinle Defense - 15% AHA, and IS Clinical Firming Complex - 5% AHA) can be too drying for me, so I think using the enzyme peel is akin to the "short contact therapy" some tretinoin users have talked about.
I could only go a couple of days though without SC CE+Ferulic before resuming -- my skin just didn't look as good without it. It really reduces my fine lines and evens my skin tone. So I wasn't strong-willed enough to give it up for very long.
What I'm really wondering about these days though is hyaluronic acid. It makes my skin look dry and crinkly except perhaps during humid weather -- but then it can cause stickiness. I understand the principle of it's ability to bind moisture, and that it will draw moisture from within if it can't draw from without, but I wonder if any others have had as much trouble with it as I have. I haven't been able to apply PSF Berry Beneficial Antioxidant Serum very often because of the HA effect. The only product I've been able to use that contains HA and doesn't cause crinkling is Avene Soothing Eye Cream. It also contains Vit.E (which my skin seems to love) but it's a creamy formula which makes me wonder if HA in a gel-type product is the culprit. My skin is in the normal range (I'm not prone to dry patches or any flakiness except after more aggressive retinoid use) and I drink plenty of fluids, use moisturizer as needed, use a relatively oily SS, etc. I'm hoping balmier weather will help. I know it's almost blasphemous to say that HA is drying since the conventional wisdom is that it's moisturizing, but I'd like to hear from anyone who's had trouble with it. I know it's not a type of acid associated with exfoliation like those we're discussing in this thread, so maybe this isn't the place to ask. But I'm just wondering... |
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Sun Mar 11, 2007 11:23 pm |
m.april i know exactly what you mean about HA. I avoid products with it now as it leaves my skin feeling and looking really parched and dry even with a good moisturiser on top. I didnt like PSF Berry antioxidant for that reason. Or skinceuticals B5 gel. I dont seem to have as much trouble with Hydrool cool though,maybe its the glycerin in it, i dont know. |
_________________ 39, in Australia, using retin a, Skin actives I Bright and Antiaging Cream, change sunscreen regularly currently. |
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Mon Mar 12, 2007 3:53 am |
m.april wrote: |
I was inspired by Molly's experiment to give it a try myself.
It's been easier (and beneficial) for me to use acids and retinoids less frequently in the dead of winter anyway. But I noticed after about a week passed without applying Avene Retrinal .1%, my pores started looking clogged. Using it once a week corrected this. I'm not generally acne-prone so others who are may have trouble backing off retinoids as much. |
i am acne prone and my face went mad when i too tried to back off (something else broke me out, but this just exacerbated the whole situation). i have decided that i don't care if my face is addicted to retinoids. if my * spam alert * keeps my face clear, then i will continue to happily be a junkie.
although i think i did need to cut down the frequency, etc., this was a really bad bad experiment for me (or anyone on retinoids for acne). my face was pretty clear when i started and will now take at least another month to clear it again (possibly with scars). i have no one to blame but myself -- i wanted to try it. i've just come to realise that not all addictions are bad. |
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Mon Mar 12, 2007 4:26 am |
I use Avene Eluage and went a week without it and noticed my pores started clogging up again I now use it 3 nights a week and its still as effective as when i was using it nightly, without the irritation yay |
_________________ 39, in Australia, using retin a, Skin actives I Bright and Antiaging Cream, change sunscreen regularly currently. |
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Mon Mar 12, 2007 5:00 am |
UPDATE, as requested...........
I'm looking ROUGH
...biggest aggravation would be increased wrinkle depth (horrid ) followed by a lack of translucency & glow and a slight surface roughness. There may be a little slackness creeping in there too.
On the positive side;
my skin feels really robust compared to the past few months (before that I didn't have sensitivity problems anyhow), but it had got to the point lately where just rinsing my face would make it red.
I'm feeling really comfortable in the spring sunshine which is most welcome.
The overall colour of my skin is more even so even though I've still got my hyperpigmentation is doesn't appear so stark in constrast with the stripped, fresh skin from exfoliating.
I really don't feel the Huber program is effective in cosmetic anti-aging terms. His theory hinges around the very sensible point that your skin's there to protect you from the external environment not to make you look beautiful. All well and good - except I do want to look beautiful and now I feel I look a couple of years older already. It's really amazing how quickly the superficial advantages of the anti-aging topicals wear off, don't you think? Or maybe if I slough a bit I'll still have some underlying positives.
I've been scrutinizing my peer group very closely since I started this and generally their skin is much rougher and wrinklier than mine and I know most of them wouldn't touch acids or retinoids with a barge pole.
I've been sorely tempted to chuck a bit of acid on and/or use some Avene on my eyes, but for the sake of the 'experiment' I've put it off. I have used the Skinmedica C serum a couple of times this week. I understand that's hardly exfoliating because of its lack of water anyhow, but I was desperate to see some improvement quickly.
It's a good chance to try other methods and products and see if they really do anything for me. I've tried OCM because I found I was getting some dead skin balling up when I rubbed in products. I'm not totally thrilled with it but it does seem to lessen the wrinkles. I've been trying the Tetrahexyldecyl-Ascorbate which certainly doesn't compare with the immediate results of L-Ascorbic. Been using the Neova GHK which doesn't live up to expectations at all. The Superpeptide serum from Professional Solutions doesn't appear to do much either.
The only joy I've found during all of this is the liquid beta glucan and ALA both of which give me temporary improvements with my undereye area in particular. I'm kind of suspicious of fast and temporary improvements though
I haven't been using anything daily so I'm going to step it up and see if I can get results from any one of these products. Might mix up some niacinamide too. I'll give it a couple of weeks and by then I'll be desperate for at least a weekly exfoliant of the gentle variety.
Anyway, it's good to shake things up and work out what works for you if you can afford to look ugly for a bit.
Sorry to hear about your eruptions Lavie. |
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Mon Mar 12, 2007 5:18 am |
Molly wrote: |
Sorry to hear about your eruptions Lavie. |
completely *my* fault. i put something with shea on my face to be kinder and gentler to it.... i'm an adult here. i was intrigued by your experiment and trust your judgement, so i tried. i just think acne (especially my kind, cystic) is just such a delicate balance to control. by laying off the acids, my face looked worse and then better (if we take out the eruptions). it led me to believe that i *was* using too much on my face and that i needed to cool it a bit.... i'm still searching for that balance, but think my face will better off in the long run. not by eliminating the retinoids and acids altogether, but by using them more judiciously. and it's been an altogether enlightening experiment as i've found what i cannot live without and what was just superfluous.... |
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Mon Mar 12, 2007 5:24 am |
la vie en rose wrote: |
it's been an altogether enlightening experiment as i've found what i cannot live without and what was just superfluous.... |
You put it very well - that's really what I'm discovering too. I think it had all got beyond a joke with all the layering. |
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Mon Mar 12, 2007 5:53 am |
Molly wrote: |
la vie en rose wrote: |
it's been an altogether enlightening experiment as i've found what i cannot live without and what was just superfluous.... |
You put it very well - that's really what I'm discovering too. I think it had all got beyond a joke with all the layering. |
too true! and, BTW, which liquid beta glucans are you using and where did you get them? someone gave me a sample and i think i'm quite liking them as well. |
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Mon Mar 12, 2007 7:04 am |
As an independent observer of la vie en rose's skin, which I've now had the systematic pleasure of seeing for the last month on about a weekly basis, I can say with confidence that her skin has gotten more luminous, less red/more even-toned, and healthy-looking during the last month. so whatever you are doing, miss la vie, keep it up! on that note, what exactly would you both deem utterly superfluous in terms of skincare? la vie, i know you are like me--you cultivate a repertoire of ingredients and products that work for you and change what you use and how you use it daily. I dream up tiny concoctions in my hand (liquid oat beta glucans, a little osea apc, HA, rose otto, for example) and am totally whimsical when it comes to both vit c (not every day) and retinoids (sometimes differin, sometimes SC retinol 1%).
reading this thread has made me deeply suspicious of the recent tendency for skin care lines to adopt the 'kitchen sink' approach--SAS' formulations and IS Clinical seem to be embracing this approach. I worry for those DIYers who add any and every active to a canvas cream and hope that all of their skin problems will go away... Any thoughts?
--avalange |
_________________ http://newnaturalbeauty.tumblr.com/ 37, light-toned olive skin, broken caps, normal skin. My staples: Osea cleansing milk, Algae Oil, Advanced Protection Cream, Eyes & Lips, Tata Harper, Julie Hewett makeup, Amazing Cosmetics Powder, & By Terry Light Expert, Burnout, and daily inversion therapy and green smoothies! |
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