 |
 |
| Author |
Message |
|
|
|
Thu Feb 15, 2007 8:35 am  |
Hey - don't get carried away! I'm not trying to promote Perricone. I just think that some of his ideas are interesting. That doesn't mean I buy him wholesale. I just hated his products.
I've been looking at what L-Ascorbic does to metals more generally and that's an interesting theory for the C glow.
And PERSONALLY I want to explore a total non-inflammatory route, which isn't just his theory - I came here from Skinbio years ago and he's very anti that too as is Paula Begoun (yep they all sell stuff). I've noticed sitting here on EDS over the years that people who pop up and say they can't use anything very strong or irritating actually seem to have nice skin and that makes me wonder whether their inability to use anything harmful has helped their anti-aging. Besides so many of these anti-aging products are great for oily/acneic people and I'm not in that camp.
BTW, I don't think he says anything about Retin A. I think your attitude to that depends if you believe in the theory that it stimulates new skin by irritation or messages to the brain. |
|
|
|
|
|
Thu Feb 15, 2007 9:34 am |
Hi Molly - I'm one of those people who generally can't use anything very strong and yet I have nice skin. No folds, wrinkles, or age spots -- only some fine lines around my eye area and a bit of drooping of my upper lids -- which is quite remarkable at the age of nearly 55. So maybe your theory is sound! And maybe the same theory applies to drinking in my case: I get so sick if I have more than a couple of glasses of wine, that it deters me from overindulging. Or maybe it's just that I'm more in tune with my body and don't push it any more when I have negative reactions.
BTW, when I talk about a C glow, in my case it doesn't include any flush or rosiness. Instead, what I consider as my "glow" is the reduction of redness, dryness and fine lines, thereby imparting a more luminous appearance. Since I use SC CE+Ferulic, I suspect my "glow" may be as attributable to Vit.E as much as C. |
|
|
|
|
|
Thu Feb 15, 2007 9:43 am |
Hi everybody,
I am a big lurker, have never posted much. But I had to jump in on this discussion. I have been using a non-acid approach since January 2005 and given up all my AHA and BHAs with the exception of Paula's 2% BHA on a rare occasion to clean out pores. I have not experienced any problems with wrinkles, hyperpigmentation, or laxity of skin, in fact it has diminished it. I use a non-acid skincare line called 302 skincare as my base products, but add in other non-acid products (like hazelnut oil, essential oils, seakelp bioferment) on a rotation and never use the same products on a daily basis. I also limit the number of products to 1 high performance topical each day, so my routine is very simple. Less is more is my skincare philosophy. I believe it is true you can plateau or even become addicted to high-performance skincare topicals if used too often. I thought you would be interested in reading these articles from the 302 website. The person who wrote them is Dr. Richard Huber. He is a biochemist specializing in skin and bone tissue regeneration and inventor of the 302 products, which contain his patented active called avocatin. I believe his articles are, for the most part, correct because I have observed tremendous improvement in my skin since being totally off the acids. Even though I don't wear sunscreen except MMU, I have no hyperpigmentation issues. I'm 52 in June, but people say I look in my 30s (partly due to genetics). The products are pricey, but I would never be without them, and they last a long time because you are not supposed to use them everyday.
Keep in mind, these articles were written for estheticians and doctors. The products are not sold directly to the public per se. They are only sold through doctors, salons, and a few websites that have estheticans on staff. For that reason, it's a very little known line.
I cannot post the direct link to the articles, but go to the website for 302 Skincare and you will find them listed under "302 Discussion Topics". |
|
|
|
|
|
Thu Feb 15, 2007 9:51 am |
Welcome Boski - that's radical stuff. I'm reading.............  |
|
|
|
|
|
Thu Feb 15, 2007 10:25 am |
Hi all,
I think that my skin's texture is such that I need some sort of exfoliation. That has been the case for me ever since I was in my 20's.
Molly: I've read Perricone's theories on L-Ascorbic acid. I've always thought that the use of Skinceuticals attributed or accelerated the lines on my face. I didn't notice any until I started using Skinceutical's vitamin C. I'm sorry that I continued to use it for so long since it never seemed to help my skin. |
|
|
|
|
|
Thu Feb 15, 2007 10:34 am |
| Ruth wrote: |
"As a footnote Perricone doesn't condemn gentle AHAs at all - quite the opposite, he considers they have anti-oxidant properties too."
what is considered a gentle AHA Molly please? Thanx for posting - interesting!!! |
Sorry Ruth - it was me that added 'gentle', maybe that's misleading. He talks about glycolic and salicylic in his book but doesn't suggest percentages. I didn't think he was talking about high percentage peels so much as buffered topical use, but I can't be sure.
The most radical thing is that he suggests treating sunburn with glycolic and that it also has a photoprotective aspect. Someone PMed me that particular research project on Pubmed and he doesn't appear to use more than 12% in that.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=8634805&dopt=Abstract
I misread that  he actually uses 50% glycolic - yikes |
|
|
|
|
|
Thu Feb 15, 2007 10:52 am |
I just checked out the 302 webite...I'm trying to talk myself out of it ..it can't fill in acnes scars...however, my finger is dancing over the 'buy' button. .....HELP!
http://www.ellensplacesalon.com/drops.htm |
|
|
|
|
|
Thu Feb 15, 2007 10:55 am |
Marina - This is supposed to STOP our topical * spam alert *. Not start a new one  I can see a whole new rave coming on...... |
|
|
|
|
|
Thu Feb 15, 2007 10:58 am |
| Molly wrote: |
| Marina - This is supposed to STOP our topical * spam alert *. Not start a new one I can see a whole new rave coming on...... |
You should check out the other serums...then again, maybe you shouldn't I was almost hoping they didn't ship to Canada..no such luck.
Boski, this is all your fault!! Here we go again...  |
|
|
|
|
|
Thu Feb 15, 2007 11:41 am |
Sorry to cause any problems  . I know anybody reading is most likely a product junkie and I fall into that category too. I still like to buy other stuff, but I always come back to my trusty 302 products.
Please do NOT buy 302 products unless you are prepared to "give up" all your other acid products, because they will be counterproductive and will cause you more headaches if you try to mix the two. You have to be weaned off your existing acids before beginning. Ideally, an trained esthetician should be overseeing your treatments and that is why they don't sell to the public. You can be in for a big disappointment if you don't follow directions. I will not get into the discussion about eliminating scars, because the results vary so much from person to person. At the minimum, your skin will have better overall tone, texture and thickness. Any scar reduction would be a bonus.
BTW, I buy from Shlomit Skincare in San Francisco. They seem to have the best prices.
If you want to go to the 302 website to read those articles I told you about earlier, you have to type in wwwperiod302skincareperiodcom. Replace the "period" with the real thing. I tried to find it with Googling "302 skincare", and the website does not show up at the top, and you really have to read up before buying. There is information on treatment protocols, the actual patent is in there, as well as nutritional info and those articles on skin care. Happy Reading! |
|
|
|
|
|
Thu Feb 15, 2007 12:29 pm |
Boski - We're glad you spoke up and appreciate your input. This is a great topic for debate and I find it very interesting. However, I have to say I'm a bit concerned with the articles listed on the 302 site. While at first glance it seems a revolutionary concept and full of great information, it appears to lack any depth to me. It references negative impacts of acids all thoughout it yet gives no clinical study for reference.
To give you an example, one of the articles states "Retinoids applied daily are an invitation to skin thinning, weakening and sagging skin". They say this but don't have any definitive proof to back it up. The part I find most disturbing about these references is that not only do they not back what they are saying up, but that they are a complete contradiction to other clinical studies that have proven the exact opposite. Just look at the link I posted from one of Molly's posts earlier.
I see where they have a list of "technical data" that you can request from them, but I'm still uncomfortable taking these articles as is.
I should note here that I'm neither 100% for or against the use of acids for skin rejuvenation. However, I want to make sure we fully understand the facts, both pros and cons, of each so we can all make an educated decision. Unfortunately physician/company bias can easily get in our way of truly understanding this issue. Thank you all for your input on this! |
|
|
|
|
|
Thu Feb 15, 2007 12:44 pm |
It's all subjective -- what your skin likes and does not like. Duh. Much like diet -- we all know people who eat only potato chips and coke and have lovely skin. Others (moi) explode if they eat, oh... meat, cheese, coffee... FOOD.
I have never had a routine and always treated my skin on an "as-needed" basis. That's why I have a basket by my bed with (counting)... 14 products in it. I don't use all 14 at once, obviously. I'm lucky if I'm diligent enough to use three. One for face, one for eyes, one for lips. If I'm really ambitious, I treat my body or feet.
I have thick skin and waxy stubborn sebum. Acids are great for me. Some retinols are wonderful (Elizabeth Arden's is best, Retin-A did nothing). Both copper peptides and vitamin C have offered overnight miracles, at times. Other times, no noticeable difference. A crap shoot.
I am not a product junkie, either. Most of my arsenal is MIY -- or made by women like me. I have them as much to share with and support creative girlfriends as I do for my face.
I do not currently have a Vitamin C product, though. But I have powdered L-ascorbic. I know I should rummage up my own serum... but Candy's appeals, with the triple effect and correct pH, etc.
I definitely believe there is a plateau-effect. And, what's more, I bore easily. Routine and I are natural enemies. We don't even speak in the elevator. |
_________________
tenderlovingwork.com, astonishing handmade gifts |
|
|
|
|
Thu Feb 15, 2007 2:20 pm |
Hi TAMgirl,
Point well taken. Those articles are not backed by scientific data, but in defense of Dr. Huber, the website was written for professionals and not consumers. You can't buy the products for resale unless you are a professional, and hopefully, they would be more knowledgeable than the average consumer.
All I can say is that I'm happy with this line and it's an alternative. But I'm sure it's not for everybody. I have dealt with Dr. Huber personally on my skin issues and can attest to his integrity, knowledge, and credibility as a scientist who wants to make a superior product. He has spent 20+ years researching skin regeneration and avocatin. I like the philosophy of the company, using natural organic ingredients, and the fact they do not advertise and only sell to trained professionals. But being a scientist, he is opinionated and he says controversial things that fly in the face of conventional skin care. I can only attest that my skin seems to do better without acids.
So I agree with you and think it's good idea to have a discussion about this. I hope more people will provide feedback on this topic so people can make educated decisions about their skincare. Everybody's skin is so different, you can't make blanket statements on what works and what doesn't. That is why I love reading this forum. People here seem to be very open-minded. |
|
|
|
|
|
Thu Feb 15, 2007 2:42 pm |
| boski wrote: |
| People here seem to be very open-minded. |
Yes we are  ...that's why we're usually broke as well. |
|
|
|
|
|
Thu Feb 15, 2007 2:55 pm |
Hi everyone,
I think this is such an interesting topic.
Molly, you always come with such interesting "experiments"! I haven't posted here in a long time because I have been omitting products from my routine (and being a total product addict, I had not read posts for fear of weakening and then buying everything mentioned)!
I have been extremely busy lately and have actually gone to bed just washing my face with (dare I say it)...soap! In the morning my skin pretty much looks the same as when I use layers of products. So maybe there is such a thing as "too much of a good thing." I don't know? I do have skin issues, especially some hyper-pigmentation for a holiday trip to Belize (yes, with sunscreen), but I have not seen any improvement with this problem. It doesn't seem to matter what I use.
I have used Retin A, Retin A Micro, Vit. C, Jan Marini Bioglycolic products, Juice Beauty, Dr. H. etc...
So...of course, now that I'm here those 320 products sound...interesting! But I'm going to hold out and use up all of the products in my very crowded bathroom.
Thanks for the lively chat. I've been missing it.
Best,
Joani |
_________________
oily/dehydrated/acne prone/few wrinkles/olive coloring/older than you! |
|
|
|
|
Thu Feb 15, 2007 3:01 pm |
| marina wrote: |
| boski wrote: |
| People here seem to be very open-minded. |
Yes we are ...that's why we're usually broke as well. |
Ain't that the truth!
Boski - I'm glad you didn't take my post the wrong way because I truly only meant it for comparison/educational reasons. I'm kind of nerdy when it comes to doing my product research and the more I can learn the better for me. I'm very glad you brought this line up and I definitely plan to take a closer look. I hope some others here who have used multiple acid products will give it a try so we can conduct our own little EDS comparison research! Who needs scientists anyways?!  |
|
|
|
|
|
Thu Feb 15, 2007 8:31 pm |
KAMgirl,
I understand and I wasn't offended in the least. It's good to be skeptical, especially when it's such a radically different approach and basically opposite of what we've told by the mainstream media and dermatologists.
Dr. Huber told me he was working on a book about his skincare approach and the science behind it. He was doing it in collaboration with a dermatologist from Stanford, but I haven't seen any signs of it. He is perpetually creating new formulations, doing studies, and trade shows, so he's probably too busy. I know he did several clinical studies with Stanford hospital and perhaps others, but I couldn't find any published reports online. In fact, you can't find much of anything on the internet about 302, except what is on their website. So word of mouth is the only thing to go by at the moment.
If you do decide to try it, you have to give it a fair trial. It may take up to 3 months to see the full benefit, especially if you were a long-term acid user. Some people see results sooner (like me), and those people seem to have the best overall results. But like anything else in skincare, YMMV. If you are lucky enough to be in California and can locate a salon who offers 302 treatments, that would be a good way to start and find out about their products.
Another side note, if you are a user of Quasar or Baby Quasar, you will find that using LED in conjunction with 302 drops will help boost your results. When I talked to James at Advanced Therapeutics about getting a Quasar, he was aware of the 302 products through estheticians using it with their Quasar LED treatments. So I am now using the Quasar with my drops. But I'm getting off the topic now, so I will sign off for now, before I get any more scoldings  . |
|
|
|
|
|
Thu Feb 15, 2007 9:33 pm |
Well my skin is driving me crazy these days! Looks nice one day, red irritated the next. It keeps flaring up all of a sudden ie today is 40 degrees and my skin looks red and feels irritated, yet yesterday it looked fine. All i know is that the only skin problems i had before adding things like aha's,vit c,strong euro sunscreens and retinol was blackheads. My skin wasnt like it is now, a bit sensitive. Even the heat of a shower can cause it to go red.
I hope im not getting rosacea.
So these products have helped with blackheads but i worry ive payed the price with these strong products sensitizing my skin
Ive been using physical sunscreen this week, only used AHA in my T Zone once this week. I stopped with vit c awhile back. Ive still used retinol a few times this week as i think it has really helped with my blackheads so im reluctant to give it up altogethor.
So im wondering if i should just try going without the retinol and aha altogethor too for awhile and see what happens. |
_________________
39, in Australia, using retin a, Skin actives I Bright and Antiaging Cream, change sunscreen regularly currently. |
|
|
|
|
Fri Feb 16, 2007 6:43 am |
| Molly wrote: |
Sorry Ruth - it was me that added 'gentle', maybe that's misleading. He talks about glycolic and salicylic in his book but doesn't suggest percentages. I didn't think he was talking about high percentage peels so much as buffered topical use, but I can't be sure.
The most radical thing is that he suggests treating sunburn with glycolic and that it also has a photoprotective aspect. Someone PMed me that particular research project on Pubmed and he doesn't appear to use more than 12% in that.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=8634805&dopt=Abstract
I misread that he actually uses 50% glycolic - yikes |
thankyou Molly - Sounds very scary with 50% glycolic!!! |
_________________
Location: Denmark. Me = 32, think I'm combo without oiliness + sometimes sensitive. Have noticed that skin doesn't heal as quickly anymore and I've developed fine lines around my eyes... Hormonal breakouts which are sometimes cystic. PCOS |
|
|
|
|
Fri Feb 16, 2007 9:22 am |
| carolb69 wrote: |
| So im wondering if i should just try going without the retinol and aha altogethor too for awhile and see what happens. |
Why not join me I didn't have sensitivity problems until recently either. I couldn't use anything too irritating in the past few years because I was in such extreme climates, but since I got back to the far milder UK and done what others do my skin's been bonkers. Feels better now.
I agree with Tam that he doesn't provide any scientific back-up, which is disappointing. I think some of this is because he's talking about long-term detriment to the skin, whereas most studies are short-term. The language is kind of melodramatic and off-putting too.
I also agree that he's at fault in saying these things thin the skin and he makes it a bit too dramatically. I think he must mean the corneal, protective layer because he's talking about the skin's reaction in this situation and protecting itself from UV. There are a few contradictions in there.
That said some of Dr Huber's theories really fit in with what I've been thinking about some things; particularly about the diminishing returns with exfoliation. He says continual exfoliation leads to "Excess cross-linking". After two pots of a good manual dermabrasion scrub I felt my skin was rougher than before I started with it. It was beautiful and smooth during, but later...
The idea of diminishing returns with topicals, especially ones that are particularly successful for you feels right to me too. That's my C experience. If they are so 'active' I think we all wonder whether we should continually use them and I've often thought I start to develop sensitivities to things I use every day like my sunscreen - it's just not natural to have such a cocktail of chemicals on your skin day in day out.
And then the hyperpigmentation. Well, I didn't have that until after I'd been using Retin A so that fits.
His sunscreen thoughts. Who knows - the dilemma has always been about which free radicals are worse - ones induced by the sun or the ones induced by the SS. In this climate I'm happy enough indoors without - I live in a cave. In other places there's no way I'd do that.
This is a terrible time to tempt me with new products. I've already got two drawfuls I don't want to use and just bought some more. Aside from his special serum (cheap enough Marina ) you could do it yourself though; it's just occasional topical use of Vit A and C-ester and a second cleanser. It's more what you don't use and the principles of occasional use that are important.
I'd really like to know why skin won't have the same reaction in the long-run to his serum as it does to other topicals. I don't understand that one. Plus I'd be delighted if he'd point out any research which showed that the skin stopped being receptive to topicals.
So, thanks Boski. These ideas are the antithesis of what most of us here believe and do so there's bound to be some lively discussion, but please don't go back in your lurking closet. I wondered if you might email your professor, seeing as you know him, and just ask for some references to studies especially proving the topical * spam alert * theory. If not I might.
Molly |
|
|
|
|
|
Fri Feb 16, 2007 9:51 am |
Hi Molly,
I'm going to see what I can get out of Dr. Huber. Don't be put off by his language, he's really quite a likeable guy once you talk to him. Somewhat of an absentminded professor type, but he has a very dry sense of humor. You can try getting a hold of him through the company email, but he's very busy. I haven't talked to him since May of last year myself.
I'm going to make this short, as I have a day job that I need to keep.
In the meantime, I'm going to send you to the YTF forum, where there are some posts from others who have tried this line. Specifically Shayna or Shyana posted some very insightful info. She was one of the first people, along with me who used the products the beginning of last year. She is an nurse and esthetician and really understands the science more than me. Another forum where you can browse really old info is in the Acne.Org forum. Unfortunately, the dicussion in this forum turned into a mudslinging fest and in the end alot of namecalling and ugliness resulted. This forum was for people interested in the acne scarring benefits more than anti-aging. The audience of the Acne.Org is younger and seems overall not as educated or civilized as you all, so I hope you can weed out some information in between the insults and discord. There was no monitoring or very little of that thread and I felt badly that it ended up that way. It could have provided alot of info for acne sufferers. Also, somewhere in the Acne.org are some posts from Dr. Huber himself. They are very long threads. I recommend you not post anything about 302 on there, or you will be most likely attacked, as I was. Some people on there are understandably very skeptical of anything topical that could reduce scars and will challenge anybody with positive feedback. I hope this thread doesn't turn into that. I'm not interested in debating or convincing anybody, I'm just putting out information for people to look into. The debacle in Acne.Org is why I haven't spoken up till now about 302.
Anyway, I've posted more than I ever intended to (peril of working at home)....I must go now... |
|
|
|
|
|
Fri Feb 16, 2007 10:21 am |
I think everyone has different best routines and varying from time to time and having product "breaks" is a good idea.
There is plenty of real literature showing most skin benefits from retinoids, Vit C and glycolics if not overused (overuse depends on the person). Any negative comments are only from people on the WEB selling alternative products. Most of those products have no peer reviewed studies because they are proprietary formulas that may or may not work.
Breaks from acids are probably a good thing to prevent overuse. They probably should also be used at high (4) pH and low concentrations 10% for younger people and people without lines appearing. They've been great for my skin but it was horrid to start with. Glycolics got rid of my nose to mouth lines. |
|
|
|
|
|
Fri Feb 16, 2007 3:49 pm |
Thanks so much for starting this post Molly I just went to the 302 website and found this extremely interesting. It seems that most of us who use high performance topicals are confronted with issues, as irritation in form of redness, itching, breakouts, etc. Often they suddenly appear one day and are less prominent the next or start after being on a routine for a whilethat seemed to work just perfect. Im still failry new to all this. I started using Retin A three months ago, and had NO irritation at first at all. You would expect this to be the case when you first start, but in my case it started later. Suddenly my skin got reddish. I started to use less and it was fine. Later I experimented with Vit C and DMAE and again, I think its fine, then I get irritation. It was too much applied all at once for one it seems. So, what Dr. Huber says about not using more than one active a day and no more frequent than every other day makes sense to me. I tossed my DMAE serum yesterday because it irritated the hell out of my skin and was too drying too. I also stopped using Vit C because its just so unstable, if you use a DIY but also with storebought ones which you cant trust to be effective and stable it seems to me. In that case it will do more harm than good. I also experimented with lower pH AHA before, which is very irritating even if you dont leave it on. I thought I should use all actives possible to stimulate collagen and elastin Then I read about irriation leading to free radicals and collagen and elastin degradation. I understand that the benefits must outweigh the negative effects, but in case of strong acids, I have started to doubt this - especially now after hearing of Dr.Hubers opinion. I wont use anything lower than pH3.5 or over 10% whe it comes to AHA.
So, I am backing of big time in using topicals from today on. I wont allow my skin to react sensitive, look flushed or get itchy or dry anymore. I am going to lay of the Retin A and AHA for three days and then alternate, using only one a day and less of it. I may go one day a week without any actives.
Keep us informed Molly - I love to learn more |
|
|
|
|
|
Fri Feb 16, 2007 7:27 pm |
I think I'll just use a less is more approach for now but i will be using a physical sunscreen only for awhile even though the PPD isnt as good. I limit my time in the sun and always seek out the shade anyway if i am out.
As far as using Active Serum well im just going to dab a bit on problem areas a couple of times a week as i find it still helps my pores when used less regularly.
The vit c debate is interesting and confusing. I dont know what to think anymore  I bought a vit c sample yesterday of SC C E Ferulic as I just was planning on using it on the top lip and around the eyes (for some reason they're the only areas of my face that dont get irritated by actives which is weird for the eyes as the skins so thin.) Anyway i ended up putting it on my whole face and there was no redness from it. Other c serums ive tried literally turned my face red on application(Skinceuticals AOX and IS Clinical Super Serum) So im not sure if the vitamin E in it is what made a difference. But i wont be using it everyday,maybe every 2 or 3 but it worries me a bit all this talk of it possibly doing more harm than good when it goes off.
I have found in the past though when ive used c serum that it reduced the look of fine lines around my eyes and thats why i want to try it again. |
_________________
39, in Australia, using retin a, Skin actives I Bright and Antiaging Cream, change sunscreen regularly currently. |
|
|
|
|
Fri Feb 16, 2007 8:13 pm |
I haven't gotten in touch with Dr. Huber yet, but as I went through my emails looking for his phone number, I ran across the email he sent me where he was talking about his upcoming book.
This is what he wrote back in Feb 2006. I had previously said it was a doctor at Stanford he was collaborating with, and I was mistaken. If it ever comes out, it should be an interesting read.
| Quote: |
I have been going like a maniac to get the new formulas and the new cleansers
ready.And to work out the details of a consumer book I am writing with Doug
Hamilton (a dermatologist at UCLA), tentatively titled "Everything You Are Doing
For Your Skin Is Probably Wrong" Out later this year, but probably next the way
things are going. We have a lot of clinical trials to work on, too. GAD! |
Also, I have been on these products since Jan 2005, so it's been 2 years now. I think I mispoke in an earlier post that it had been 1 year. Time flies when you get older |
|
|
|
|
| Sat Apr 20, 2024 3:59 am |
If this is your first visit to the EDS Forums please take the time to register. Registration is required for you to post on the forums. Registration will also give you the ability to track messages of interest, send private messages to other users, participate in Gift Certificates draws and enjoy automatic discounts for shopping at our online store. Registration is free and takes just a few seconds to complete.
Click Here to join our community.
If you are already a registered member on the forums, please login to gain full access to the site. |
|
 |
|
|
