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Mon Mar 12, 2007 7:23 am  |
I thought that it would be good to take this topic to a new thread in the hopes that more members will see it and reply. I also thought it would be nice to not hijack Molly's thread too!! http://www.essentialdayspa.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=20546&start=125
| m.april wrote: |
| I know it's almost blasphemous to say that HA is drying since the conventional wisdom is that it's moisturizing, but I'd like to hear from anyone who's had trouble with it. I know it's not a type of acid associated with exfoliation like those we're discussing in this thread, so maybe this isn't the place to ask. But I'm just wondering... |
I have only used samples of HA but I too had problems with it. I tried ISC Hydracool and Cellex-C HA. When I first applied it my skin seemed to be nice and moist but within hours I noticed that my skin was feeling parched. I will note here that I have slightly oily skin and always used a moisturizer over the HA. The Cellex-C did seem to be more drying than the Hydracool and I wonder if that is because the Hydracool has things other than HA so it actually has less HA than the Cellex C. I also noticed that the morning after using these serums my face would be really dry and dehydrated. I will say that in the case of the Hydracool it irritated my skin too so I suppose it is possible that the irritation compromised my skin barrier and allowed the moisture in my skin to evaporate. The Cellex-C also seemed to cause some itching so that too may have been irritating slightly and compromising my skin barrier. So I suppose that in my case it is possible that the compromised skin barrier due to irritation was the cause of the water loss from my skin. I would like to try a HA serum with nothing else that could irritate to see how that would go. Also, keep in mind that I live in the desert and the fact that there is almost no humidity in the air may make a difference.
Doesn't HA draw moisture from the deeper layers of the skin especially in a low humidity environment? I know that in my case there is no way that the HA could be getting alot of moisture from the air. Or does the HA hold so much water so that in the bottle it is completely saturated with water and when you apply it to your skin it adds that water to your skin which hydrates it? But wouldn't the water evaoporate especially in a dry climate? I would think that adding moisturizer over the HA would hold some of the water in but in my case that didn't seem to help.
I am interested to hear what others have to say on this and if others have had similar problems with HA!! |
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Mon Mar 12, 2007 7:53 am |
As I've mentioned in other threads I do find it plumping and not dehydrating in high humidity environments. Here with the central heating on (the air isn't too dry outside) I find it drains me of moisture over time.
But I wonder if this is because, like you suggest, it packs the upper layer of the skin with water; partly from the product and partly from the lower layers of the skin and this is somehow an unnatural state for the skin to be in - it's overhydrated, a little dysfunctional and eventually leads to a bit of a skin barrier bust up. Just a theory!
I don't know if it would be detrimental for the upper layer to suck the water out of the lower layer. It's not as if the skin isn't connected to your body so more water should come through to replace the loss. |
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Mon Mar 12, 2007 8:17 am |
| Molly wrote: |
But I wonder if this is because, like you suggest, it packs the upper layer of the skin with water; partly from the product and partly from the lower layers of the skin and this is somehow an unnatural state for the skin to be in - it's overhydrated, a little dysfunctional and eventually leads to a bit of a skin barrier bust up. Just a theory!
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Very interesting! I hadn't even thought about the fact that it might be overhydrating the skin barrier and that this could be the source of the problem (since overhydrating can damage the skin barrier). Wouldn't this mean that in humid environments using HA would be even more problematic becasue there is more moisture for the HA to draw from the air and add to the skin barrier creating even more of an overhydrated state? Or adding a moisturizer on top could also be problematic in this case becasue it is holding all the moisture in and keeping the skin barrier saturated with water?
Although you do say that in low humidity the HA dries you skin too so maybe it is the adding of moisture and it's rapid evaporation that is the problem. Do you still get the dehydration when you apply emu oil on top of the HA? |
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Mon Mar 12, 2007 8:47 am |
I am one of those who have not had success with HA serum. I purchased PSF HA Serum and I have found it to be extremely drying for my skin and stopped using it.
I have used the serum in many ways: under moisturizer; over moisturizer; mixed with emu oil and nothing has helped.
I have not analyzed the reasons why HA has not worked for me because many products that are great for most people cause me to have some sort of irritation or sensitivity. That's just the nature of my skin. |
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Mon Mar 12, 2007 8:49 am |
Dr P, Skinbio is very anti-HA (there's the rat issue, which we can ignore) but he also believes it over-wets the skin barrier.
The past year is the first time I've used HA so regularly so I can't be sure if it's because I used it daily over such a length of time that I felt my skin barrier go down or if it was working in the humid climate and then not in the dry one.
If it did work well for me in the humidity then you're right, it would contradict the idea that over-hydration is a bad thing.
Lately, yes - I get dry skin if I apply emu over the top of it. That said - I think my skin barrier was damaged by a whole lot of everything else too and curiously I don't find emu a great 'barrier' because it seems to absorb so well on me. |
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Mon Mar 12, 2007 9:01 am |
| I've been using HA with emu for a short time. I haven't had any problem with dryness yet - in fact my skin is much more hydrated then it was. But I'll report back if it rebounds. |
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Mon Mar 12, 2007 9:12 am |
I've had no luck with the PSF HA serum either, so I'm glad I'm not the only one with HA problems. Now I don't think I will buy another brand to try.
| leeleedeedee wrote: |
I am one of those who have not had success with HA serum. I purchased PSF HA Serum and I have found it to be extremely drying for my skin and stopped using it.
I have used the serum in many ways: under moisturizer; over moisturizer; mixed with emu oil and nothing has helped.
I have not analyzed the reasons why HA has not worked for me because many products that are great for most people cause me to have some sort of irritation or sensitivity. That's just the nature of my skin. |
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Live in Switzerland, age 32, dehydrated combination skin, sensitive to climate changes, some food and cosmetic products. Very fair. |
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Mon Mar 12, 2007 11:07 am |
leeleedeedee, yogi and Schnee; could you comment on the environment you live in. Is it humid or dry?
Molly- I have read from sources other than Dr. P that overhydrating the skin can be a source of problems so I would be inclined to believe that overhydrating the skin is bad. I would think that if this HA works well in humid environments it would more so contradict the notion that HA leads to overhydration of the skin or that the source of the dryness experienced by some of us is due to problems associated with overhyderation. |
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Mon Mar 12, 2007 11:24 am |
What an interesting topic!
I've used Cellex-C, Skinceuticals, and PSF HA. I have to say I was just using these because everyone was talking about how great HA is.
However, I too felt like HA was drying my skin.
First, does HA or any humectant for that matter actually draw water vapor from the atmosphere? I believe someone here did an experiment where they just put out a pile of HA powder, and it DID NOT result in a puddle of water.
I think most water in the stratum corneum is retained in the corneoctyes, which contain water-binding agents from broken down filaggrin. I belive topical HA does migrate down to the deeper layers of the skin, and doesn't just stay in the stratum corneum.
Perhaps you apply topical HA and it draws water out of the corneocytes. It then travels through the lipid bilayers down into the deeper sections of the epidermis, taking the water it has drawn from the corneoctyes with it. The result is a drier stratum corneum? There's limited research on a lot of the stuff we have questions about - even basic questions such as absorption pathways through the skin: corneocytes/intercellular lipids/emptied desmosome routes/etc. So not playing scientist, just trying to figure out why I feel dry after HA. |
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Mon Mar 12, 2007 12:58 pm |
[quote="TheresaL"]leeleedeedee, yogi and Schnee; could you comment on the environment you live in. Is it humid or dry?
I live in Southern California. It's close to 90 today, and VERY dry. |
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Mon Mar 12, 2007 1:12 pm |
| TheresaL wrote: |
leeleedeedee, yogi and Schnee; could you comment on the environment you live in. Is it humid or dry?
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Switzerland, about 10-12 deegree ceclius today. fairly dry. RH indoors is below 30. |
_________________
Live in Switzerland, age 32, dehydrated combination skin, sensitive to climate changes, some food and cosmetic products. Very fair. |
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Mon Mar 12, 2007 2:21 pm |
TheresaL - I live in Montreal - a very humid climate even in Winter.
Schnee - I'm so glad to read that I'm not the only one for whom HA did not work. I know I have very sensitive skin but I didn't really want to believe that I was so very different from other people. |
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Mon Mar 12, 2007 2:25 pm |
I personally can't imagine using just HA on its own. I guess if you are very oily skinned it may be ok but I can't deal with it as it is. Mixed with emu it is fine though and when I have been a bit careless with acid peels (  ) then I just keep on slathering it on.
I do wonder if Dr P is right about the degrading of the skin Molly, now you have given a credible explanation as to WHY that may be the case! |
_________________
my new jewellery website:www.gentle-medusa.com |
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Mon Mar 12, 2007 2:27 pm |
| I've never tried HA on it's own, but some of my skin care has it, and they have not dried my skin out. |
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Mon Mar 12, 2007 2:44 pm |
Theresa L, this topic is perfectly timed for me. I was just wondering the same thing.
For the past week or so I have been adding some of the PSF HA serum and a bit of jojoba oil to my eyes. Just this morning I noticed that the area under my eyes (where I have been applying this combo) actually looks drier and I see more fine lines! |
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Mon Mar 12, 2007 3:08 pm |
Wow!! Thanks for the replies everyone. I am really glad that I started this thread since there are obviously others out there that have experienced the same thing. Unfortunatly, there seems to be no real pattern among those of us that have experienced dryness from HA. I see no pattern with the humidity of our environments, skin types and even whether we used a moisturizer or oil over the HA.
RMB-I have read, I would have to find it again for the specifics, that HA will draw water from the atmosphere if the humidity is above a certain level. I had heard that it draws moisture from the deepere layers of the skin if the humidity is not high enough although I suppose that in high humidity it could draw moisture both from the air and the deeper layers of the skin. As for HA migrating down to the deeper layers of the skin, I think that this depends on the molecular weight of the HA. I think that the low molecular weight HA does penetrate the stratum cornuem but that the high molecular weight does not penetrate. Can anyone veify this? Also, how do you know what type of HA is being used in a product?
Guapagirl I would never dream of using HA on it's own and it seems that very few members are able to do this. I wonder how oily skinned those members that use this alone are and if they live in humid environments? |
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Mon Mar 12, 2007 3:12 pm |
Also, I am in the Pacific NW. We aren't terribly humid here or anything, but we get plenty of precipitation.  |
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Mon Mar 12, 2007 3:24 pm |
I've tried my PSF HA on its own a few times at night, but when I do this, it feels all sticky and within 10 mins my skin feels *really* tight.
That said, when I've put PSF vit c on in the morning and followed it up a little while later with HA I haven't issues like that.
I have a forthcoming trip to the tropics so planning a test there. |
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Mon Mar 12, 2007 4:06 pm |
Thanks Theresa for starting this topic. I didn't really WANT to hijack Molly's "ugly experiement" thread, but figured most people who are keeping up with it are probably those who've experienced dryness from certain products, and have perhaps turned to HA for help.
Like Schnee and leeleedeedee, I was beginning to think there was something different about my skin (and perhaps something damaging about my regimen) that I've continually experienced dryness from HA. The first product I tried was SkinCeuticals B-5 Gel, and with each subsequent product I've used, I've experienced that parched, crinkly look, particularly on my undereye area -- YIKES!!! As I said in Molly's thread, the only HA product I haven't had this happen to me is Avene Soothing Eye Cream. But it's a CREAM, and so it makes me wonder if a gel formulation (like all the others I've tried) is more to blame than simply HA. |
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Mon Mar 12, 2007 6:12 pm |
| I am another one that experiences dryness/dehydration/crinkly look when I use HA. I live in FL, very humid. Yet another product that was not right for me! |
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Mon Mar 12, 2007 6:16 pm |
| I've been diligently using HA for the past several months and ever since I began, I've had a problem with dehydrated skin. I thought it was because of the oils I was using to control my skin that was oily (I went from oily to dehydrated) but maybe HA is the culprit. I think I will try staying away from HA for a while and just try some diluted SKB + Aloe vera instead. |
_________________
28 / Asian / oily tzone + dehydrated / Acne under control, fading acne marks. Still have clogged pores. |
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Tue Mar 13, 2007 1:43 am |
| RMB wrote: |
However, I too felt like HA was drying my skin.
First, does HA or any humectant for that matter actually draw water vapor from the atmosphere? I believe someone here did an experiment where they just put out a pile of HA powder, and it DID NOT result in a puddle of water. |
I think the results of that experiment would depend very much on the environment. Most definitions I've read of humectants say they draw moisture from the air. Blimey, in Guangzhou at certain times of the year you could call your curtains and pillows humectants and I think the skin must follow that because I'd wake up with considerably plumped and less wrinkly skin. It's interesting that so many people in Guangzhou suffer very badly from acne; the constant wetting of the skin surface is supposed to lead to barrier impairment and a lack of resistance to bacteria.
I would never hope to use HA in a really arrid environment like Beijing.
On the point about where the water is held; I thought it was held in "water-holding proteoglycans and glycosaminoglycans" and I think we get the idea that HA is somehow a replica GAG (glycosaminoglycans). I'm not so sure these days; realising that the topical HA's are different to human ones makes me wonder if we're barking up the wrong tree.
BTW I was reading on one of the other sites, can't remember which, that HA injections actually stretch fibroblasts and stimulate collagen production. |
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Tue Mar 13, 2007 1:54 am |
| TheresaL wrote: |
Guapagirl I would never dream of using HA on it's own and it seems that very few members are able to do this. I wonder how oily skinned those members that use this alone are and if they live in humid environments? |
sorry I misread your first post, I thought you were just using HA or HA based products and no moisturisation/oils on top.
I'm pretty dryskinned and I like HA so much I buy it by the quart and mix it 50/50 with my emu ultra for my body and under emu and then over emu on my face.
I think like emu, some producers make a lot of hype about HA that it just can't live up to, bit it remains a staple in my skincare. |
_________________
my new jewellery website:www.gentle-medusa.com |
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Tue Mar 13, 2007 2:39 am |
| That's strange. When I was going through my alligator skin phase, many EDSers recommended HA serum. I wonder how that would work. |
_________________
26 with dehydrated combo skin, prone to blackheads and congestions, NC20-25 |
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Tue Mar 13, 2007 2:49 am |
| guapagirl wrote: |
| TheresaL wrote: |
Guapagirl I would never dream of using HA on it's own and it seems that very few members are able to do this. I wonder how oily skinned those members that use this alone are and if they live in humid environments? |
sorry I misread your first post, I thought you were just using HA or HA based products and no moisturisation/oils on top.
I'm pretty dryskinned and I like HA so much I buy it by the quart and mix it 50/50 with my emu ultra for my body and under emu and then over emu on my face.
I think like emu, some producers make a lot of hype about HA that it just can't live up to, bit it remains a staple in my skincare. |
I'm like you in that I use HA mixed with other stuff instead of alone. As for humidity, I'm still feeling soggy from this weekend's rain (Vancouver). |
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