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free skin care · Wed Aug 14, 2013 12:57 pm

Yubs wrote:

Barefootgirl wrote:

The general consensus has been between 4-6 weeks, based on the 30 day wound healing cycle...for 1mm+ needles. I am wondering if this weekly protocol is new or recommended for other skin issues.
BFG

I'm not talking about any general consensus here on the forum or anywhere else. I'm talking about the difference between Dr. F's philosophy and Dr. S's.

My understanding is that Dr. F has always advocated this more aggressive needling strategy, regardless of where general consensus may have moved, and that it was his original approach to needling in the first place. Am I wrong about Dr. F original strategy? I realize I might be so if I am I'd like someone to tell me.

Regardless, I still would like to hear bethany's opinion on the results she got when following this more aggressive protocol v. the results she saw when following Setterfield's 30 day/6-week wound healing strategy. Unless I've misread and bethany never followed the 1x/week, 6 week strategy.

Dr. F's initial approach was to use the super long needles under full anesthesia, though it was never clear how frequently that would be repeated. I do remember reading some info from Europe saying 2x a year. Then in November 2007 he published an article comparing 1mm rolls to 3mm rolls and why he felt they were superior. It was around this time that he said 6 weekly rolls because you would not get the same needling density unless you were under full aesthesia as required for the 3mm needles. What he did not address was how often a series of 6 rolls could be repeated. (fyi...the article takes some time to load):

http://www.scribd.com/doc/46025449/Environ-Micro-Needling

Dr S did train under Dr F, and it is pretty apparent to me that they don't necessarily agree with each other on everything. Having read a gazillion documents in the thread I used to update (link below), plus more recent articles and Dr S's book, here is where I net out:

right now

My personal rolling history is that I rolled initially for 6 weeks in a row in 2008 in a very aggressive manner using .5mm and 1.0mm needles...only 302 Skincare products between rolls which I believe had some anti-inflammatory ingredients. I took a 2 month break, and then did one roll. I repeated that once more time. Approximately 4 months after my initial 6 week series of rolls was completed, I saw some interesting little bumps appear in my crows feet area, and at 6 months my crows feet were completely obliterated. I took several years off from rolling due 1) having no wrinkles and 2) way too much work. In 2012 I did a roll, and I did one with the My-M in 2013.

I was thinking about this last night, and whether or not I wanted to do another series of 6 rolls. After much thinking, I ultimately decided against it because I just don't need to be that aggressive since I have limited wrinkles, and I don't like the idea of ongoing inflammation. (even using the ReAura for 4-8 weeks is concerning to me). So my plan right now is to do a few more ReAura treatments (3 weeks total) and then finish with a needling treatment. That puts me at 4 weeks of inflammation trauma and I don't want to extend that, even though I will be using anti-inflammatory products in between treatments. I think that and a focus on barrier repair and pigmentation suppression will get me to where I want to be.

I still believe that less frequent trauma is better, and that needles over 1mm aren't necessary. (until someone has concrete data showing otherwise of course!) I will periodically do a roll with at least 3-6 months in between.

Yikes....that was a novel. Sorry about that!

Link to past CIT articles:
http://www.essentialdayspa.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=29860&highlight=cit

free skin care · Fri Aug 16, 2013 10:12 am

Barefootgirl wrote:

Stepping back to Setterfield's comment here:

Photomodulation and lymph drainage are valuable from day 2-14 and then cosmetic rolling combined with Sonophoresis and micro-current are beneficial to assist maximum delivery of nutrients to cells.

I've theorized that one of the reasons Fernandes and his patients look so good is because of the sonophoresis and nutrients post rolling.

I've looked into sonophoresis machines for home use in the past and threw my hands up in confusion. Now I see mention of micro-current to assist with the process. Given all the discussions here on micro-current, are there any devices that most recommend for this? Anyone know?

Hi BFG, check out the Squoom or a Squoom knockoff like the Merbe that I have. I did use it on my first/last DermaJet treatment and it really helped with the bruising and lymph I got under my eye area. It got rid of the strawberry type blood spots on both my under eye area and neck quicker then I think they would have gone away on their own. I wrote a little bit about it on the DermaJet thread.

SQOOM significantly improves the skin’s own production of collagen and elastin, sustainably improving the skin’s structure, regenerating problem skin and improving the overall appearance of the skin – making it brighter, firmer and more youthful. These results occur within a very short time frame. With longer term use, the effects are even more pronounced.

It connects the iontophoresis with ultrasound (sonophoresis) in a unique way. In other words: The ultrasound is the doorbell, and the ionophoresis subsequently opens innumerable doors. And that happens one million times in each second.

http://www.sqoom.com/en/meta/sqoom-how-it-works/

free skin care · Mon Jan 06, 2014 10:55 am

I found the write-up that (briefly) mentions the positive result from topical estriol, penetrated into the skin with ultrasound:

http://www.dermaconcepts.com/documents/0000/0072/Treating_Damaged_Skin.pdf

From pg 3: "Schimdt published the results of iontophoresing retinoic acid or Estriol into skin scarred by acne. This gave results that are comparable with dermabrasion of the skin. Dermabrasion thins the skin and results in an artificial looking surface whereas iontophoresis of the skin nutrients actually makes the skin thicker, healthier and more beautiful." (preceded by a before-after photo)

Rolling the skin is probably a somewhat less effective way to get it in there, but I think trying it with the shorter needles designed for product penetration might yield similar results.

My biggest issue with rolling right now is the immediate post-roll period; I simply can't afford the downtime. Until I can find a sunblock that's both safe on post-needled skin AND contains no anti-inflammatories, I have to avoid doing intense sessions. Even the short-needle rolls require a bit of downtime for me, unfortunately Sad

I'd love to hear how everyone here handles the post-needling downtime, if anyone wants to share Smile

Do any of you just stay house-bound for several days to avoid UV rays? Or are you just using sunblock/makeup right away and going about your daily lives the next day, hoping the treatment will still help anyway?

free skin care · Fri Jan 10, 2014 8:30 pm

zorilla wrote:

I've rolled a few times and think it's been successful for tightening, but my skin does feel kind of hard, definitely firmer, and I was wondering if maybe I've just dried it out or the dermarolled skin is, in fact a different texture than non-needled skin. Anyone have any comments about this?

Quote: "...research shows that there is no evidence of the formation of scar tissue."

http://www.scribd.com/doc/46025449/Environ-Micro-Needling

If done properly (i.e., carefully and methodically, not dragging the needles or going too quickly, etc), and with a high quality roller using the correct gauge needles, you will form regular collagen instead of scar collagen. This is what separates needling from laser treatments and chemical peels, both of which can and often do create scar collagen because they (intentionally) damage the top layer(s) of skin.

Dense needling, on the other hand, creates many pinprick wounds which trigger the same wound healing cascade as lasers and chemical peels. But since the wounds are fully closed within hours and there's no damage to the skin barrier, you get normal collagen instead of scar collagen.

http://idealimageclinics.com.au/collagen_induction_science.html

MECHANISM OF ACTION IN MICRO-NEEDLING
All this is a very complex process, but the principle is quite easy to understand.
In micro-needling we simply utilise the body self-healing mechanisms. It reacts to the intrusion of micro-needles like it would react to any other skin penetrating object. But the difference is the size of the object - the micro-needle. The intrusion of tiny surgical needles (provided they are professionally designed) is sensed by skin nerve receptors as an injury stimulus. But the needles are so fine and thin that tissue damage is unlikely. The skin integrity actually stays intact. However, this “nerve-stimulus”, transported by electrical signals, triggers the cascade of the healing process. Skin cells, in a radius of 1 to 2 mm around the pricking channel, release growth signals to undifferentiated cells. These signals in return stimulate the proliferation of new cells, e.g. fibroblasts to transform into collagen- and elastin fibres. The task of fibroblasts is, to migrate to the point of intrusion for wound closure. And here comes the trick: The pricking channels, caused by the micro-needles, close very quickly and no tissue lesion can be detected, and none has to be repaired. The transformation for wound repair cells (e.g. fibroblasts and others) is an automatic process – like a one-way road. Their final mission is to transform into collagen fibres. They integrate into the existing collagen formation in the upper dermis. This new fibre formation – in terms of many hundred percent - thickens the skin and fills former atrophic scars. As single needle prick is not worth mentioning. But if thousands of microscopic small needle-pricks are set, the induced collagen formation becomes confluent and forms a new collagen layer. This body reaction is called neo-collagenesis.

In addition, the inner cells that coat our vessels (endothelial cells), and in particular these of our capillaries, are also stimulated to proliferate. They react to this stimulation by sprouting out new capillaries that in return results in more and better blood supply of the skin. This reaction is called neo-angiogenesis.

Edited to add: I know it's very time consuming, but I HIGHLY recommend reading pages 65 through 100 or so before rolling. Start a file, take some notes... you really need to have that knowledge base to maximize your odds of success. Dermarolling is no fun (for me, at least Neutral

) and you'll save yourself a lot of money and hassle by reading carefully before you jump in.

Also, this thread is only one page, and you should also go through these links. But if nothing else, read page 65 through pg 100 or so. You'll save money and your sanity, and your skin will thank you!

By the way, I've never had much luck linking to a specific page, so I really hope this URL works... it SHOULD take you right to page 65:

http://www.essentialdayspa.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=22460&postdays=0&postorder=asc&&start=1600

free skin care · Thu Mar 06, 2014 10:53 pm

I buy from ebay and pay around $15 total. I've bought many rollers on ebay and never had any issues with them. I now buy the mustard colored ones. They are exact copies (from what I've seen) of the ones owndoc sells. Sarah say's the cross linked needle pattern on these rollers is superior to the straight across ones. I'm not totally sold on the science behind that but it does make sense the way she explains it. Whatever you buy, don't get the "knife" shaped needles. Sarah explains in detail why this is not a good thing. Something about slicing your skin which straight needles do not do.

free skin care · Fri Mar 07, 2014 4:47 am

Hi Lagomorph, I purchased 1 of my rollers on ebay 2 years ago & it's still perfect condition and another on OWNDOC.COM - 3 line 1mm - which I just bought - super fast delivery! I bought the latter to target the NL folds & my upper eyelids. I have seen improvement - slight in both areas. Some say it works, others say it works with collagen and elasticity only. Building the facial muscles back up that sag over time helps too apparently so I will be starting back with AGELESS facial exercises. I believe that rolling in addition to good topicals - in my case Retin A, CPs, Vit C, HA and facial exercising it will continue to improve - 2 years ago, they were worse than now for sure.

Also wanted to publicly thank Pandax12 for the recommendations - so helpful and reassuring Smile

free skin care · Fri Mar 07, 2014 12:25 pm

Pandax12 wrote:

I buy from ebay and pay around $15 total. I've bought many rollers on ebay and never had any issues with them. I now buy the mustard colored ones. They are exact copies (from what I've seen) of the ones owndoc sells.

Could you post a link to your supplier, Pandax? Owndoc doesn't sell the Dr. Rollers anymore, and in my experience, the crosslink pattern is superior. If you're getting quality rollers and not having problems with them, that supplier's worth checking out. Thank you Smile

free skin care · Sat Apr 19, 2014 3:56 pm

Lorraine: If you get deep into wrinkles with a single needle, the long term results are AMAZING, but you will look frightening for a couple of days: the wrinkles are emphasised by the needling, and you will look about 150! I plan it in my diary, ensuring that I can do it one evening and have the next day completely off.

Makeup must be left off for at least one day (read the Owndoc instruction pdf, then you won't be overwhelmed by this entire forum). Surely you can take one day off once in a while? Treat it like a spa holiday. It only needs to be once in a while - your body will do the rest. On the second day (after 2 nights and one day) my understanding is that makeup is ok. Double check that.

I don't think just fluffing away with a .25mm roller or stamp will get into those deeper lines. You're trying to build up the deep 'cracks' with more collagen, to even out the total appearance. Think of it this way: a Dr treating your wrinkles with fillers isn't going to fill your entire face up - the point is to specifically fill the wrinkles.

Have a look at some of the sites of cosmetic tattooists who do CIT. I know Sarah Vaughter disapproves of tattoo needles, but at least these tattoo sites show a. how these tattooists get deep into specific wrinkles and acne scars b. how scary and ugly the clients look for a few days and c how good the long-term results can be when those wrinkles/scars fill out.

My technique is: deep single needles and narrow stamping on the deep lines, whenever I see one forming. Looks horrible and HURTS. 1.5mm-2mm. This has taken me from a year ago getting those 'bitter' upper lip lines and 'monkey mouth' lines that are so depressing in older women, to a nice, younger upper lip again. Monkey mouth lines and Bunny lines at top of nose and forehead lines GONE. I'm still working on my parenthesis lines, which had been deepening for over 30 years. They are definitely filling out. Back of wrists really need more deep single needle work.

I do use general rolling and stamping for general thickening of skin, eg back of hands,cheeks, throat. 1.5mm. Rolling is more painful than stamping for me. It doesn't look so bad - more like an overall rash, but I don't think it will bring up the deeper lines, and you still can't use makeup for that first day of healing. This definitely gives me thicker skin, eg the back of my hands have gone from veiney and 'old' looking to about 10 years younger.

This is a commitment for the rest of my life, if I want to limit the aging of my skin, and that commitment needs a day off socialising/working every 6-8 weeks. Worth it in my opinion.

BTW, in winter, when I wear trousers, I did my lower legs (very sun damaged and very thin skin), and they took a frightening 10 days to heal! So my face and hands are actually healing very quickly compared to that.

One more thing: Deb Crowley of Flexeffect has a new method of skin stretching, which she seems to state is just as good as needling and would give you no down time. You could look into that?

But personally, I've had such amazing results with needling that I'm prepared to take the pain and downtime to get the certain results.

free skin care · Sun Apr 20, 2014 10:08 am

What size would you suggest for all over that can be done more frequently without down time?

Happy Easter! (if you celebrate ) Wink

free skin care · Wed Apr 23, 2014 10:53 pm

Interesting "permanant makeup" site here, with comments on skin needling: http://permanentmakeuptrainingandtips.com/what-is-skin-needling/

What struck me is this: " We do not work on any tissue outside the boundaries of the wrinkles or scar tissue, as this will make the wrinkle appear even deeper."

This is my point about working deep in the wrinkles and scars: just rolling over the whole area could stimulate the surrounding skin more, giving no overall improvement. Maybe that is why some young people trying to roll acne scars away are dissatisfied: their young skin is very responsive to rolling, so the surrounding tissue is well stimulated, but the scar itself still looks deep.

This is why I think rolling and stamping is great for overall skin thickening, but perhaps not ideal for specfically raising wrinkles and scars.

free skin care · Sun Jun 29, 2014 5:28 pm

This experienced MD has an interesting page on various treatments for aging skin (laser, microdermabrasion, chem peels and microneedling): http://jamesgreenmd.com/plastic-surgery-articles/skin-care-chemical-peel-microdermabrasion.php

His observation is this: "Even though it's not yet as popular, Collagen induction therapy trumps them all. Also called "Micro-Needling,""

free skin care · Mon Mar 16, 2015 8:29 pm

Lisa, perhaps you are right that rolling often creates more visable results but all the scientific research points to this being counter productive in the long run. The skin need to go through a lengthy healing process involving an inflamatory response, breakdown of old collagen and the laying down of new collagen which takes weeks. Needling deeply every couple of days risks keeping you in the early stages of inflammation and collagen breakdown without letting your body complete the process of laying down a new collagen matrix. I would be worried rolling deeply several times a week that improvements I was seeing were due more to swelling and inflammation than to true remodelling of the underlying structure of my skin.

I believe this is likely to be true of needles of 0.5mm and above. Shorter needles for enhanced uptake of topicals can I believe be used more often.

free skin care · Tue Mar 17, 2015 9:39 am

Lisa, everyone is different so of course I can't categorically say how others will react to derma needling all I can go on is the research that is done by medical professionals and by and large such frequent rolling with longer needles is not advised.

It is true that when you perform a single roll you only create the microchannels in a small percentage of the skins total surface. However that small percent of total damage spread somewhat evenly over the surface of the skin triggers a process which is systemic rather than only affecting the small area of damage directly. For example dermal needling increases the production of collagenases which breaks down collagen and is a necessary step in the production of new healthy collagen but if collagenases is elevated consistantly its effect will be destructive rather than playing its important role in skin healing and remodeling. I do agree that an entire new collagen for the whole face will not be made each time you role with a 0.5mm roller or above. Treatments are cumulative over months and years but only if the skin is given time to heal. The key thing is to see the skin as a living breathing organ with its own processes and the best results seem to be in harnessing the skins natural functions rather than trying to beat it into shape like it was an old table top and believe me I have been there!

There is so much that is only just beginning to be understood about skin about how it works and repairs itself. For example the signalling that goes on between the various layers of the skin the keratinocytes in the epidermis and the effect they have on the production of collagen in the deeper dermis this signalling is believed by Dr Setterfield to be key to the success of dermal needling. Also most of us are not medical professionals or even aestheticians so I think it is wise to be prudent when attempting to DIY what is essentially a medical procedure especially anything over 0.5mm.

Just after Christmas when deciding to really seriously study and try dermal needling I rolled with a 1.5mm needle on the back of my left hand which was is a frankly dreadful state as it is the one that always seems to get the most sun / weather damage. In the days immediately following my roll my hand looked great with very plump and juicy skin, this was the inital inflammatory phase. Then it seemed to get worse for several weeks it looked so bad and I was very worried then the skin on my had actually peeled (common wheh rolling your hands at first) and over the next week or so continued to improve and now my bad hand is my good hand! This was my experiment and it has personally convinced me of the time rolling take to produce lasting results and that less is probably more.

However all that being said Lisa, this is only a combination of my online research and experiance and I fully accept that you may feel differently and even with in the reseach / medical community there is some disagreement on treatment protocols but I have to say I have not seen anyone recommend rolling several times a week with 1.5mm needles.

I would really encourage everyone to read as much as they can on dermal needling before they get into it as understanding the research, the skins functions and so on is not optional with this. I have read everything I can find online and their is a whole lot and I eagerly await my copy of Dr Setterfield's book from the US.

free skin care · Fri Sep 09, 2016 4:15 pm

My most obvious success was a few years ago when I first read about needling and used a very thin sewing needle on my first perioral, bunny and forehead lines. All gone within weeks. I mean completely gone! I think single needling such as done by some cosmetic tattoo people can have amazing results, especially on younger skin (pre-menopause) where you're really just trying to 'lift out' the wrinkle or acne scar to join the level of the otherwise good skin.

I have many disadvantages: my skin is ultra-dry, celtic genes in a high-UV climate and now I'm older (near menopause). I feel I'm losing collagen almost by the hour! I'm considering HRT, it's so scary.

Areas that used to have just one or two deeper lines (eg wrists) are now completely covered in fine lines. So instead of just lifting out a few lines with single needling, I really need to renew large swathes of skin. I've be treating crepey/lined areas for the last 6 weeks, weekly (because of the Fernandes article I posted above, and because that fits in with work and down-times). I have worked out what depths work for me using Sarah Vaughter's advice: "For home use, it is much safer to do several rolling sessions with occasional pinpoint bleeding than one "totally bloody" to obtain the same results. Especially if you roll large areas." http://forums.owndoc.com/dermarolling-microneedling/the-more-blood-the-better-when-dermarolling/ (she's saying that more blood is *not* better).

So, depending on the pain, sponginess/thickness of the skin, closeness of bone underneath, I now use various different depths throughout face, throat, decolletage, hands, wrists and shins, aiming just at pinpoint bleeding, mainly just pinkness. Only for deep lines (parentheses, one perioral line, some wrist lines) I using single needling, go deeper and produce more blood. With single needling, Sarah says be very careful and wait to see what happens after a few weeks. I only do it because I've done it several times before and not scarred.

Sarah answers on bleeding on several times, look up 'blood' and 'bleeding' on Owndoc. Eg here: http://forums.owndoc.com/dermarolling-microneedling/dr-desmond-fernandes/

I can't afford the Environ products, so just use Ascorbic acid twice a week and vitamin A cream nightly. Sunblock every time I'm outside.

Improvements: because I'm battling against menopause and my other disadvantages, I'll feel lucky if I can just ward off further deterioration. Sarah Vaughter says needling can't fix dry skin, and that indeed is getting worse.

However, an old friend looked at me in surprise the other day and repeatedly (unasked) said I look 32 (I'm 50). Others have said mid-30s.

I can tell that my skin is thickening. When I first did my shins, Nov 2012, 1.5mm roll, they took 10 days to heal. The skin must be thicker and stronger now: I roll 2mm and they heal within 3/4 days. They look a bit better - fewer hints of old-lady veiny/bony shins, but they are still dry. Crepey only when pinched.

Nasolabial: No worse than several years ago, nothing like the depth that runs in my family. Facial exercises also help here.

Parentheses: No worse than several years ago. Due to smiling, I don't expect to remove them completely - I've had them since my 20s.

Crows' feet: Only visible when smiling. Skin not crepey.

Same for other areas: basically I'm holding my skin steady at a mid-30s (but celtic, sun-damaged) level, but certainly don't look 25 again. And I don't look like my friends of the same age who have more melanin and don't have a single wrinkle anywhere.

free skin care · Sat Sep 10, 2016 8:05 pm

And the other type of middle-aged women who often doesn't show wrinkles is one who is quite overweight. But of course that brings other issues, including sagging.

Sat Jan 28, 2017 10:59 pm

Can someone please recommend a good serum to use after rolling for red acne marks and scars,thanks.

Fri Nov 29, 2019 8:44 pm

Hi all,

one year later and my skin is looking better than ever. I did intense micro-needling sessions with my 1.00mm and 1.5mmm derma-rollers every 5-6 weeks, with a break of 3 months during the hot summer.

The redness and the spider-veines from my rosacea are completely gone by now and the collagen is building up really well. I did maybe 9 intense sessions in the last year.

For the last 2 rollings I included the serum "Buffet" from The Ordinary, meaning I put it on the skin as a lube during the needling, so it could really penetrate deep into the skin.

I'm a bit angry at myself for not trying these peptides any earlier, because it gave me such good results. It's like I had 1 needling session with the same results as two without them.

Anyhow, I thought I would give a follow-up.

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