DermaRoller
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free skin care · Mon Apr 27, 2009 11:09 pm

MaryClaire wrote:

Should vitamin A and C be delivered to the skin after several hours after the roll and then not again until 4 or 5 days later so that the inflamation response sets in good?

Check out the protocol in this article...I apply my Vit C/Vit A mix about an hour after rolling, and then 2-3x a day for the next 3-4 days (and nothing else) Then I go back to my regular skin routine.

http://www.dermogenesis.com/roll-cit/Clinics_of_N_Am_2005.pdf

You don't want to stop feeding your skin after rolling...you just want to avoid the stuff that decreases the inflammation (like LEDs, inflammation reducing topicals, etc.)

And others will want to take note of the part about not rolling unless they have pre-treated their skin for 3 weeks to 3 months (depending on the amount of sun damage). Skin that is not prepped nutritionally will not respond as well...the torture is NOT worth the sub par results, so the prep is worth it.

free skin care · Thu Aug 13, 2009 10:15 pm

Here's a link that will take you to updated articles:

http://www.dermogenesis.com/clinical/

These articles will answer many of the most frequent questions that come up on this thread.

BF

free skin care · Fri Aug 28, 2009 4:21 am

Hi Keliu, thanks, I just asked the question of Dr. Fernandes and received this response:

[i]With the home cosmetic needling with needles about 0.2 mm to enhance penetration through the outer horny layer of the skin only. This is our real barrier against the environment and is incredible thin. If you make tiny holes in the horny layer you will not cause any inflammation in the lower skin (the dermis) because the needles cannot reach that deep. Of course this statement depends on what you put on the skin. I have done histological studies to show the changes that we see with enhanced penetration of Environ Vitamin A products and what we have found is a very convincing normalisation of tissues without any signs of inflammation. If you are using a product that contains other ingredients that might initiate an inflammatory response, then of course, Cosmetic Needling would aggravate that situation. It might be visible as a plumpness of the skin and smoothening out of wrinkles but this might be due to subtle swelling of the tissues. We know for absolute certain that if the needling is done well enough, that we can enhance penetration by as much as a thousand-fold at least.

With medical needling where the needles are between 1-3 mm long, the needles actually penetrate into the dermis and cause bleeding which initiates the cascade of growth factors – the so-called “inflammatory” response to trauma. In this case the trauma is different because cells are not exposed to air and what happens is not the standard inflammatory response. Instead the growth factors favour regeneration of tissue. The “inflammation” in this case is not the same as chronic inflammation that we know contributes to aging. In fact needling seems to have the exact opposite effect with rejuvenation of the skin clinically and even a restoration of severe photo-damaged skin back into more normal skin. I have histological evidence of this.

So in summary, whether you are using an instrument to enhance penetration or to induce collagen formation, you will not be causing any inflammation as far as my research has shown using Environ skin care products. I can’t speak for any other skin care and I don’t think anyone has examined the skin with the microscope after using other skin care products. So please look at the ingredients of your skin care if you are doing Cosmetic needling if you are concerned about (invisible) chronic inflammation .

free skin care · Mon Sep 14, 2009 12:40 pm

Unless you are on a diet to the people lossing fat on fat especially ladies. I would check if you have any hormone imbalance...Facial fat keeps people looking youthful

free skin care · Wed Oct 07, 2009 1:23 pm

With the short needled rollers, I apply the product beforehand per istructions found online.

Some people will bleed with a 1mm and some won't. Whenever I've used the 1mm, my recovery time is short - basically 24 hours and you can cover your skin with makeup anyway.

I'd like to strongly suggest something. This long hread is helpful, but not nearly as helpful as the many articles you can find online. They contain current and detailed instructions and information. See the dermarolling thread at the top of the forum for updated information and links to *current* articles. . That is your best bet for guidance.

BF

free skin care · Fri Nov 06, 2009 9:33 am

Tonia wrote:

Hi! I have been trying to read through this thread and it is me taking forever. Meanwhile, I have ordered a 1. mm and a .25 mm. I have some questions that I can't seem to find the answers to.

With the .25 for product penetration, when do I apply the product? Do I apply it before or after? Can I use it with either Retinol or Vitamin C? Also, will I bleed with a 1.mm and what is the typical recovery time with a 1.mm? I'm sorry. I know these questions have to be on here somewhere but 149 pages is a lot to weed through.
Thank you for your help.

You apply the product afterwards. Vit C will sting, and I wait until the next day for that. Retin A might be preferable right after the roll. You can bleed with a 1mm if you press hard, but I think you get more bang from your buck with a 1.5mm. Using your 1mm, if you do a hard roll, you will be a bit red and splotchy the next day, but within 48 hrs, it should be gone. Everyone's skin is different, but that has been my experience.

free skin care · Sun Nov 22, 2009 7:53 am

Tonia wrote:

Miranda, your skin looks fabulous!!! Congratulations on your results. I'm actually a few years younger than you and your skin is in better shape than mine.

I have only been on EDS for a couple of months and I don't even recognize some of the things you listed. Now I'm going to have to start researching some of it.

I have a few questions.
1. What size dermaroller do you use?
2. Can you post the Zogan massage link you mentioned?
3. If you had to single out one or two items that have made the biggest difference for you, what would they be?

Thank you.

Hi Tonia
1. I use a 1.5mm DR but I don't use numbing creams so I'm never pressing really deeply - it's probably the equivalent of using a 0.5mm-1mm. Sorry that's a bit vague, I actually only invested in a DR for my tummy SM's.

2. The Zogan massage is here
http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Ffaceculture.ru%2Fasahi.php
This was uncovered by jjbeacham (aka Maggiemay on Ageless).

3. Hmmmm.... so many different changes, it's difficult. Probably the Hempseed Oil and Vaculift - those were the two that made over-night changes.

I have to say, I always had good skin until I visited a dermatologist in May and her regime ruined my skin. Since Sept, I've just been working on returning my skin to as it was. Apart from the parenthesis lines round my mouth, everything is as good as it was (except the glow, that's better than ever!)

free skin care · Tue Dec 22, 2009 10:44 am

Hermosa wrote:

I bought a roller on ebay, have been waiting for it for a month, and the seller just told me that it may take another month. (I also see that they claim that they aren't responsible for lost items, but I think that may violate ebay's policies.)

Sooooo...any suggestions for a decent product that isn't too expensive from a reliable seller? I would rather not have to wait another month.

Hermosa, I bought a very inexpensive roller that I love, from an eBay seller who sells electrical equipment to estheticians. She was knowledgeable and I got the roller within three days (she is in Florida). The roller is well-made and I am very pleased with it. Her eBay name is advanced_cosmetology. Here is her listing for the 1.0mm roller:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Micro-Needle-Skin-Care-Collagen-Induction-1-00mm_W0QQitemZ160372926090QQcmdZViewItemQQptZSkin_Care_test?hash=item2556f8a68a

and here is her eBay store:

http://stores.ebay.com/Beauty-Health-Equipment-Outlet

HTH! ~ JJ

free skin care · Tue Mar 02, 2010 10:17 am

margarett wrote:

Hello, I have had this dermaroller that I bought
some time ago and I have kept it without using it. After reading so many good things I am going to try it, my main concerns are my on going battle with melasma and dark circles, probably some nasolabial lines.
My question is if its absolutely necessary to have been on Retin-A prior to the treatment?
I don't believe in it myself, since I've tried
Retin-a in the past and has done nothing to my skin and I've been the most 6 mmonths. Also, I never saw any redness or peeling and used all the three formulations.
Thank you

From what I have learned talking with Dr. Fernandes the best results are realized if one has been on A and C for at least 6 months prior to rolling (deep rolls). He uses a different form of A in his formulas, so I am assuming that you don't necessarily have to use the Retin A but you should use some form of A (and C) before and after for best results.

free skin care · Tue Mar 02, 2010 6:38 pm

margarett wrote:

Thank you rileygirl,

I also would like to know if I could be doing the Obagi treatment at the same time when dermarolling once a month with a 1.5 needle.

You're welcome. I don't "think" it would be a problem as long as you don't apply the HQ products the night of your roll. That said, if you are just starting Nu Derm, I would definitely wait for a good 6 weeks of being on the products so you know how you react to them and so your skin doesn't get any more irritated!

free skin care · Sat Mar 06, 2010 8:51 am

The "good" time to roll in one's cycle was discussed a while back. This might help..

http://www.beinggirl.co.uk/your-body/periods-calendar/ I'm assuming right after your period, before you're ovulating? Correct me if I've got it wrong.

Day 24 is when you're a lot more sensitive to pain, apparently. Learnt a few things from this calendar, myself.. Smile

free skin care · Sat Mar 13, 2010 10:12 am

Tonia

Start with the CP Serum as it's weaker than the Super CP Serum.

I would use it for a week or 2 before using with a roller to see how your skin reacts. CPs are pretty strong.

When I first started using them, I diluted with water 50/50 for a couple weeks and gradually added more CPs and less water each week. I had no uglies this way. (Uglies are usually loose skin or wrinkles showing up from the CPs bringing damage to the surface and changing things up too fast)

I did see some uglies when I changed up to stronger CPs, so it can happen, but they always went away. And I no longer have any problems - my skin is used to them now. I can use the strongest(SC2X) without any itching anymore and that's the one you want to use for scars - it really fills them in fast

After you see how your skin reacts, you might be able to use the roller on DILUTED CPs. But watch for reactions. If things are moving along fine, gradually increase the CPs.

Oh - and if you like creams better than serums (drier skin), you can try the P & R lotion to start (about the same strength as CP Serum) or later, the TriReduction Lotion(cousin to the Super CP Serum). Just preferences, is all. I like serums better for my oily skin and I can control the strength w/ diluting with water better than the creams.

Its a good idea to get an oil like Emu to apply after the serums since they have no oils or moisturizers in them. The emu oil helps to push the CPs in too. Plus, rolling can be drying, and the oil is a good one to add after a roll. I tend to add mine after the holes have closed up.

Edited to add:

I forgot to mention that SB has a new CP called Skin Signals that is getting great reviews. They include collagen and elastin in it for firming skin. You could start with this one (diluting it) instead. Its a serum

free skin care · Tue Mar 16, 2010 3:04 pm

Jackie284 wrote:

Hi everyone,

do we just sort of dot along the line/wrinkle at the same angle the roller would touch them ?

many thanks

Jackie xx

The instructions that came with the single needles from owndoc say to poke the needles at various angles and, basically - needle the 'heck' out of the wrinkles/scars. I needled an 'll' line that is creased (one out of two of them) and wished I had needled in a wider path than just straight down the middle. It's a learning curve that we have to master and I will do a better job of it next time. Very Happy

On the other hand - I only needled the scar itself on two ice pick scars and that will be enough for those. Different scar will have slightly different techniques.

I do believe angling the needle differently will help with most scars and wrinkles. Some may only need to be 'in' the scar itself while others may need a wider path (my '11' did)

free skin care · Wed Mar 17, 2010 5:15 am

Jackie284 wrote:

thanks for this info girls!

Would we need to have the 6 week break between these sessions? or would it depend on how deep you were going with the needle ?

thanks

Jackie xx

Jackie, for my wrinkles, she recommended the needle once a month.

free skin care · Fri Mar 26, 2010 9:51 am

Catie, here is a quotation from an article about dermarolling, written by a doctor.

“In my experience, 0.25mm needle diameter is the maximum that can be used without causing a new scar in the skin. Smaller diameter needle skin rollers can be used but do not maximise the dermal injury and therefore will be slower to produce results.”

free skin care · Sat Mar 27, 2010 3:30 am

SkinCareJunkie wrote:

rileygirl wrote:

SkinCareJunkie wrote:

So I have been going freaking nuts to find a dry brush. I don't have a Whole Foods by me. Does the Brush have to be small if you want to use it on your face? The only ones I have found are the body size. Thanks Very Happy

I "think" the body ones maybe to too rough for your face, skincarejunkie.

Yeah I think your right. I felt some of the body brushes and they felt pretty rough. I found this one online if anyone is looking for a "dry brush".

http://www.thebodyshop-usa.com/prod638819;jsessionid=mBrUrB+gMKW7Y7KhHNiOUg**.bsbwilapp03-bsprd-app-102?cm_sp=OnsiteSearch-_-brush-_-Rounded_Handle_Facial_Brush

I might just way until I can get to a Whole Foods. Laughing

I first used a natural bristle brush but found it was too rough (it was a Japanese-made brush especially for the face as well). I got some advice from a few people using the synthetic brushes that come with their Clarisonic and now I use the 'normal' brush that came with my Tre-Sonic. Maybe it's worth just ordering the brushes of either device; they feel great on the skin and are easy to clean.

free skin care · Sat Mar 27, 2010 3:44 pm

SkinCareJunkie wrote:

I was thinking about ordering the Clarisonic but then I read it's not good to use if your pron to broken capillaries.

Hey, skincarejunkie. I had the same fear with the Clarisonic and held off for a long time, but I finally purchased the Mia back around the first of the year. It has not caused any more broken caps for me. Thought I would mention that to you!

free skin care · Wed Mar 31, 2010 3:13 am

Mars wrote:

HI, I've asked before, but I don't recall getting an answer. My question is: Do you think needling will improve the appearance of white surgical scars? Thank you. Smile

Yes it does. I have some laparoscopic scars from my gallbladder surgery that I've needled. The white area is much thinner/less noticeable now.

free skin care · Tue Aug 31, 2010 4:53 pm

C.G. I think you can name the company - many posts have company products and websites listed. Please dish the name of your dutch company. thanks.

You cannot endorse your own products, DIY products for $$, etc. It is not a place for advertising but you are not advertising - you are sharing information to help others on EDS. If I'm incorrect I hope the mods will let me know however we are talking about a product on another site which is the same situation and no problems have resulted. We all try to help each other.

Mon Nov 22, 2010 4:44 pm

I've done lots of reading on these forums and other similar ones. Rarely are side effects reported or long term effects. My experience is one everyone who rolls their skin should know about. I had medical roll cit (3mm needle length) done by a well known and top NY plastic surgeon. I was 27 and had minor shallow acne scars on my cheeks. I was told that there were no side effects and it would improve my skin quality. I wasn't aware at the time that "injury to stimulate collagen" actually means causes scar tissue, even if it is minor, it still is scar tissue that creates the tightening effect. My surgery was in November 2009 and I was put under general anasthesia. I paid $5,700.00 All my reserach on the procedure before hand was positive and of course I trusted in the doctor's ability and knowledge. I was very bloody afterwards and my face swelled up to look like a balloon for 3 days. Downtime was 9 days and the redness didn't subside for about 1 1/2 months. At first my skin looked smoothed and vibrant. But after 3 months it began to tighten and thicken in an uncomfortable way. It changed the way my face looked as well. At the six month mark I began to lose fat in parts of my face and at about 9 months my face was so tight that it became uncomfortble to smile. One year later my face was thick and saggy with fat loss. After researching and asking questions a needling specialist told me that I had scar tissue under my skin and that was the cause of the pain and leathery feel. Another doctor wrote that he thinks the fat loss was because my face remained in a state of inflammation for months and my fat cells decreased. Now I'm looking into having some of the scar tissue broken down and maybe some peptides to help replace the bad tissue. I have contacted Des Fernandes and he wanted me to buy his products to improve the skin condition but did not respond to my email about the pain and fat loss. The Derma roller people have been more helpful on giving me information on what may have happened to my skin and possible remedies to undo some of the damage. It's all guess work because no one really can give me a definitive answer on how to help the problems and if they will go away.

I write this long email because there is virtually no information about the negative side effects of this procedure. I have been told that if a much shorter roller was used I would not have experienced any of this. Fat loss, scar tissue within my deep tissues, possible nerve damage, uncomfortability when smiling, and a an aesthetic change to my face. People have to understand what they're doing to they're skin and how once you injure it, it's most likely injured for good. Who knows what the long term effects are on the skin. I'm telling my story in the hope that it helps others. Any questions are welcome.

free skin care · Sat Oct 22, 2011 8:46 pm

Eureka! I finally broke down and bought a numbing cream. What took me so long? I just rolled after using = WHAT A DIFFERENCE! No pain. I can't believe now that I ever rolled without this cream. I used a few days ago to single-needle some lip lines. It was a miracle - painless.

Well, live and learn. I'll never do roll again without a numbing cream and I did a much more thorough job!

This is the one I got, and it worked fast! Within 20 minutes I was good to roll.

Lidocream 4 > http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004LVM8U4

Cool

HAPPY!

free skin care · Tue Jan 17, 2012 8:34 am

DermaBoy, rolling with a 1.0 or longer requires a minimum of 5 weeks for dermal rejuvenation to complete (healing from the inflicted injury of the needle in this case). Dr.'s who use laser to treat acne scars (or for dermal rejuvenation in general) only treat once every 6 weeks for the same reason...allow the dermis to heal before creating more injury. If you are rolling with a longer length, you are creating an injury and it needs to heal. That process doesn't happen in days or even a few weeks. If you're rolling often with a longer length, you are keeping your dermis/skin in a constant state of inflammation and any improvement you're maybe seeing is more about the inflammation/swelling causing the skin to look plumper/tighter.

free skin care · Tue Jan 17, 2012 12:52 pm

Gotta agree with skinsmything on both accounts. The whole point of dermarolling is that the positives outweigh the negatives. Yes, inflammation is not good, but if used correctly, it can produce very nice results. If you subjugate your skin to chronic inflammation, you may spend more time and money later on trying to undo the damage.

Secondly, I do think that a lot of people don't stick it with or don't see good enough results after a couple of rolls and give up. I mean, people have trouble sticking to one cream for a week straight. And this is straight-up injuring your face.

free skin care · Sun Jan 22, 2012 10:07 am

DermaBoy wrote:

Tonia where did you come up with this information? How do you know that rolling frequently will interrupt collagen rebuilding process? Believe me Tonia, the skin is tough. It's supposed to be. IT HAS TO BE. The next person that says "Ohhh Derma rolling frequently with a 1.5 mm is bad and will stop collagen production!!"...... Please explain why rolling frequently will interrupt the production of collagen and also do you have proof or experience of this?

I'm actually keeping a detailed record of my rolling experience which I will share once I have completed my derma rolling. I use a 1.5 mm roller and I roll once a week for my acne scars. I use a pretty good amount of pressure so there is definitely bleeding. However I am not rolling aggressively because I am rolling so frequently. I've rolled 6 times so far I am seeing little improvement. I read from experienced people that it takes at least 30 sessions to see results. I look at my scars through different shades of lights and mirrors from angles that you can only imagine. This means that I am paying close attention to my scars. I will keep everyone posted about my rolling experience.

This is insane. I've read this whole thread and not one single person can give a final conclusion about derma rolling for acne scars. NOT ONE PERSON can share us their experiences with derma rolling and the results they achieved. Why? Where are these people with successful results using the derma roller for their scars? Have any of you used the derma roller long and consistent enough to see results on acne scars? All i see is quitters and people who want to believe. It's not enough. Someone please share your results with us!

My you are a little charmer! Thriving and surviving are not one and the same. If you had bothered to research corneobiology and corneotherapy, the healing cascade, the role of low grade, chronic inflammation in skin ageing, other dermatological complaints (acne, dermatitis etc) and a whole host of degenerative medical conditions you would understand why frequent microneedling with a 1mm or 1.5mm is foolhardy.

To get you started
http://www.math.pitt.edu/~cbsg/Materials/Wound_Healing_Overview.pdf
http://www.abme.com.br/pdfs/Dermaroller/maxilofacial.pdf
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1468-2494.2011.00644.x/full
Those articles are fully referenced; following those up plus a literature search on Google Scholar and PubMed should keep you occupied for a couple of months.

Mon Jan 23, 2012 11:04 am

Thank you for your responses. After reading some of these responses I'm starting to lean towards taking a longer break between rolling sessions with a 1.5 mm roller.

I've been doing it once a week because I was too anxious to see results. I wasn't exactly sure if derma rolling worked so now that I know I am seeing improvement in my scars after 8 sessions in 3 months (which is quite a bit i know) I will definitely slow down the pace.

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