DermaRoller
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Sun Jul 06, 2008 4:39 am

Dot wrote:

Hi everyone,

Last night I got ambitious and thought I would just jump in and do it all with the 1.5. My face started bleeding immediately! Honestly, I looked like the gory pictures in some of the literature. But as someone once said here my vanity was greater than my concern, so I just did one area at a time, rinsed off the blood on my face and roller, and then kept going. I had the popping sensation the whole time. Near the end, it almost felt like the needles were getting stuck or dragging a little.

I was surprised by the amount of blood and the getting stuck/dragging. Could I have dulled the needles with just the one prior use? As far as I know I don't have any blood issues. I hadn't taken any ibuprofen or vit. e. I did have one non-alcoholic beer the night before which I know as a tiny bit of alcohol. Has anybody else had a lot of bleeding? Or bled way more the second time? With my arms, I bled more and the needle length was the same as before. Any else had needles get sort of "stuck"?

Regarding the dragging/sticking - I noticed something similar if I do NOT pull the skin taught prior to rolling certain sections (i.e. jowl area.) I just did my fourth roll last night with the 1.5mm, but was not overly aggressive. I tend to get a few blood drops on my nose area...

My next roll will be very aggressive (I just received EMLA cream) plus, I plan on using the 2.0 mm roller. I will also roll my chest/neck this time, but stick with the 1.5 mm roller.

Sun Jul 06, 2008 11:50 am

Gumgirl - I think that's it! The dragging was on my cheeks near the nose, the one place where the skin is not very taut. I totally forgot to pull it taut though I remember reading that. I did also see in one of the professional "how to" literature to be careful on places close to bone such as forehead as needles could get bent and also more chance of bleeding.

Bethany - I'm glad to know you use some soothing products. I wouldn't be able to do this if I couldn't!

Today I have a new problem though - acne, a fair amount, mostly on my chin and a little on the NLF lines. I vary rarely get acne, so I have to assume it's from the rolling and I think I read on the Novaderm site that that could happen immediately following rolling as the skin makes adjustments (something to that affect.) Or maybe it's a reaction to putting on products too soon after rolling.

Boy was this one ever a learning experience. I may not be able to do it again for two weeks, my boyfriend noticed the acne and asked what I was doing to my face, etc. I forgot to get up early and put makeup over the "evidence."

I won't give up though... I turn 40 in a few months and want to look good for that momentous occasion... I really do appreciate all the information and help on this forum.

free skin care · Sun Jul 06, 2008 2:25 pm

Dot wrote:

Today I have a new problem though - acne, a fair amount, mostly on my chin and a little on the NLF lines. I vary rarely get acne, so I have to assume it's from the rolling and I think I read on the Novaderm site that that could happen immediately following rolling as the skin makes adjustments (something to that affect.) Or maybe it's a reaction to putting on products too soon after rolling.

Boy was this one ever a learning experience. I may not be able to do it again for two weeks, my boyfriend noticed the acne and asked what I was doing to my face, etc. I forgot to get up early and put makeup over the "evidence."

Hmmm...is it truely acne, or possible a histimine reaction? They can both look similar, but acne will be bacteria-driven and the histimine bumps will be due to a reaction to the trauma or something you put on after your roll (and these usually itch).

I would assess your post-roll routine and possibly make some changes next time.

Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:20 pm

Definitely acne...and all but a little cleared today and my face actually looks pretty good. Considering the whole experience, I'm really amazed by that. Thanks again everyone for your help.

free skin care · Tue Jul 08, 2008 6:43 pm

My chest has come good now. Well it's still red and rashy looking, but it's not irritating anymore. I wonder how long before it looks normal.

free skin care · Tue Jul 08, 2008 8:37 pm

Mishey wrote:

My chest has come good now. Well it's still red and rashy looking, but it's not irritating anymore. I wonder how long before it looks normal.

It took mine a couple of weeks to look normal. And even then it was still redder than usual. It STILL looks like I have a sunburn. Sad

free skin care · Wed Jul 09, 2008 3:55 am

It took mine a couple of weeks to look normal. And even then it was still redder than usual. It STILL looks like I have a sunburn. Sad

[/quote]

Wow Bethany, that sucks. My chest was always a little redder looking before rolling it as I have what my derm says is sun damage. Little broken veins that make my chest look a little rashy. This will be interesting. Rolling Eyes

free skin care · Wed Jul 09, 2008 10:12 am

I need some help finding some pre-rolling supplies.

I've seen clear bentadine mentioned here but I cant seem to find it any where. Should I just get regular bentadine, will it stain my face? Or is there something else thats recommended for an antibacterial wash purpose?

Also, is there an effective numbing lotion/cream that can be purchased at the drug store?

Thanks!

free skin care · Wed Jul 09, 2008 1:14 pm

GirlieGirl wrote:

Or is there something else thats recommended for an antibacterial wash purpose?

I use the Bactine - Pain Relieving Cleansing Spray.

free skin care · Wed Jul 09, 2008 7:29 pm

I read an interesting article today on Inflammation and how it impacts aging (including skin aging). It has ramifications for anyone rolling, using AHA/BHAs, retinols, doing microdermabrasion, etc. (Rolling has not been specifically mentioned since it is not mainstream yet, but rolling definitely compromises the stratum corneum barrier and creates inflammation.)

My takeaway is that I will not be rolling more frequently than every 3 weeks in the future to be on the safe side from a long-term standpoint.

I realize that everyone will not agree with this, but I did want to throw it out there for those that may be a bit more conservative/cautious.

Excerpts are below. If anyone would like the complete pdf, please PM me with your email address and I will send it to you.

Quote:

Chronic inflammation is etiology of extrinsic aging
Author: Thornfeldt, Carl R
Source: Journal of Cosmetic Dermatology, Volume 7, Number 1, March 2008 , pp. 78-82(5)

During each of the past 3 years, over a million Americans were diagnosed with a skin cancer requiring surgery......During this same period, however, the popularity of exfoliating strategies with alpha hydroxy acids (AHAs), retinoids, and microdermabrasion has exploded.

Any degree of repeated or chronic disruption of the stratum corneum barrier has been documented to activate chronic inflammation. Acute inflammation followed by complete rejuvenation of the stratum corneum permeability barrier does not seem to induce or exacerbate destructive chronic inflammation if more than 2 weeks elapses between treatments.

Chronic inflammation that is induced by both AHAs and retinoids seems to be primarily the result of barrier disruption. The U. S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) in 2000 developed a warning for AHA products with a concentration over 10% and pH under 3.0 due to increased photosensitivity and premalignant deterioration of keratinocytes. Because the AHAs are not photosensitizers, unlike retinoids, the photoreactivity must be attributed to exfoliation of the barrier. Halliday as well as others report increased cutaneous malignancies with prolonged topical retinoid use. These results are controversial as short-term topical retinoid use is documented to reduce cutaneous malignancies in several animal species and clinical observations in humans.

The correlation of the rising skin cancer epidemic with increasing exfoliative strategies forces skin care professionals to consider whether chronic inflammation induced by stratum corneum permeability barrier disruption plays a contributing role......This author and Elias established that a lipid mixture of ceramides, cholesterol, and free fatty acid applied topically effectively reversed compromised permeability barrier function.

http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/bsc/jcd/2008/00000007/00000001/art00015;jsessionid=1as1b46rel71l.alexandra

free skin care · Wed Jul 09, 2008 9:17 pm

bethany wrote:

I read an interesting article today on Inflammation and how it impacts aging (including skin aging). It has ramifications for anyone rolling, using AHA/BHAs, retinols, doing microdermabrasion, etc. (Rolling has not been specifically mentioned since it is not mainstream yet, but rolling definitely compromises the stratum corneum barrier and creates inflammation.)

My takeaway is that I will not be rolling more frequently than every 3 weeks in the future to be on the safe side from a long-term standpoint.

Do you mean three weeks for big rollers (1.0, 1.5), or are you holding off on the smaller rollers, too?

I have a .25mm that I haven't used yet, but I was planning to use it two or three times a week once I get started with it.

free skin care · Wed Jul 09, 2008 10:24 pm

Lowbrowscientist wrote:

bethany wrote:

I read an interesting article today on Inflammation and how it impacts aging (including skin aging). It has ramifications for anyone rolling, using AHA/BHAs, retinols, doing microdermabrasion, etc. (Rolling has not been specifically mentioned since it is not mainstream yet, but rolling definitely compromises the stratum corneum barrier and creates inflammation.)

My takeaway is that I will not be rolling more frequently than every 3 weeks in the future to be on the safe side from a long-term standpoint.

Do you mean three weeks for big rollers (1.0, 1.5), or are you holding off on the smaller rollers, too?

I have a .25mm that I haven't used yet, but I was planning to use it two or three times a week once I get started with it.

I would personally use the .25mm gently (as opposed to aggressively)....that is what I will be doing with my .15mm.

I also consider the .5mm to be highly inflammatory (even if you don't necessarily see topical inflammation), as well as anything longer than that. Rolling daily to weekly could potentially have long term ramifications, which is why I wanted to point this out.

However, everyone should ultimately do what they think is best for themselves, based on their own research.

free skin care · Wed Jul 09, 2008 11:10 pm

bethany wrote:

I would personally use the .25mm gently (as opposed to aggressively)....that is what I will be doing with my .15mm.

I also consider the .5mm to be highly inflammatory (even if you don't necessarily see topical inflammation), as well as anything longer than that. Rolling daily to weekly could potentially have long term ramifications, which is why I wanted to point this out.

However, everyone should ultimately do what they think is best for themselves, based on their own research.

I'm pretty sure that mild inflammation (i.e., not visible to the naked eye) had a lot to do with my developing skin issues in the first place, so I'll be treading lightly. Of course, I would have been taking it easy anyway, because I'm a huge wimp Laughing

free skin care · Fri Jul 11, 2008 12:11 pm

Cross-posting from a non-rolling thread:

bethany wrote:

mountaingirl wrote:

ok...I gotta pipe in here. I think anyone who is using a Dermaroller and thinking that their skin is improving almost immediately, is just seeing a superficial effect. I am now 7 months into my Dermarolling adventure, using it once a week (1.5mm) and now I'm going to begin once every 2 wks. It takes about 6 months for the skin to really rejuvenate. (I spoke with a Plastic Surgeon who is rolling clients with a 1.5mm and he emphasized the timing.) That has been true for me as I am FINALLY reaping the benefits. I was discouraged and even whined on this forum about about my lack of results, but alas, now I'm blown away. In the last week I've had 3 comments on my "beautiful smooth skin." I can't stop looking in the mirror...its amazing, it friggin' works!!!!! I am so excited about discovering this, and knowing I don't have to do anything invasive or expensive to improve my skin. Bethany...I have to disagree, Inflammation is not bad! unless you are talking about your joints or something.
Rollin' on.... Laughing

You might want to read the complete inflammation article I posted on the dermarolling thread before making such a general statement.

However, the good news is that they have determined that acute inflammation will not turn into destructive inflammation if 2 weeks lapses between periods of inflammation AND the skin barrier is completely repaired via a lipid mixture of ceramides, cholesterol, and free fatty acid applied topically.

mountaingirl wrote:

The Plastic Surgeon I talked to thought once a week WAS too often to roll, which is one reason I am switching to once every 2 wks.

Your comment confirms what I have been saying all along...daily or weekly with long needles is NOT the way to go. But as long as the rolling is within the appropriate time criteria and the skin barrier is repaired, people should continue to roll and reap the benefits.

http://www.essentialdayspa.com/forum/viewthread.php?p=385665#385665

free skin care · Fri Jul 11, 2008 12:33 pm

bethany wrote:

the skin barrier is completely repaired via a lipid mixture of ceramides, cholesterol, and free fatty acid applied topically.

Thanks for keeping us up-to-date.

So, I wonder, is applying emu oil in the appropriate time frame after a roll enough or do we need a seperate product specifically for post-roll application? I already have emu oil, and I can get the liquid crystals (cholesterol) and ceramides but I'm really not sure how to formulate one product with all of them.

I'm going to PM you with my email address, Bethany; I'd really like to check out the full article.

I don't want to take shortcuts, but I'm hoping the products I already have will be sufficient.

free skin care · Fri Jul 11, 2008 12:46 pm

Lowbrowscientist wrote:

bethany wrote:

the skin barrier is completely repaired via a lipid mixture of ceramides, cholesterol, and free fatty acid applied topically.

Thanks for keeping us up-to-date.

So, I wonder, is applying emu oil in the appropriate time frame after a roll enough or do we need a seperate product specifically for post-roll application? I already have emu oil, and I can get the liquid crystals (cholesterol) and ceramides but I'm really not sure how to formulate one product with all of them.

I'm going to PM you with my email address, Bethany; I'd really like to check out the full article.

I don't want to take shortcuts, but I'm hoping the products I already have will be sufficient.

Honestly, I'm not sure either. I was thinking that I would just use my emu oil (lipid containing 70% unsaturated fatty acids) after 24 hours, and my Remergent Barrier Repair which causes you to generate ceramides and lipids.

But the cholesterol had me perplexed...where are you planning on buying that?

free skin care · Fri Jul 11, 2008 1:16 pm

bethany wrote:

But the cholesterol had me perplexed...where are you planning on buying that?

I was going to buy the liquid crystals, specifically cholesteryl oleylcarbonate, from a wholesale supplier, presschem dot com (sorry, I can't post links yet). The minimum purchase amount is 100 grams, which amounts to about 3.5 ounces, and they charge $35 plus shipping. They quoted me a low ship price, but I'm relatively close to them, so you may want to check on that. Their customer service rep is very prompt with replies.

Liquid crystals are also sold at Skin Actives, but the price is $37.50 for 1.7 oz. Theirs is a blend of three different cholesterol compounds, presumably for the sake of appearance and texture, but the C.O. can also be used on it's own and I need the budget-friendly options.

ETA: Skin Actives has a product called "ELS" (Every Lipid Serum) that looks like it would be perfect, since it contains ceramides and the liquid crystals. This might be easier than formulating from scratch, if you're not a DIYer.

ELS ingredients:

Squalane and Olea Europea (olive) fruit extract, Rosa rubiginosa (rosehip) seed oil, Punica granatum (pomegranate) seed oil, Lecithin, Cholesterol Oleyl Carbonate and Cholesteryl Nanoate and Cholesteryl Chloride <--these are the liquid crystals, Punica granatum (pomegranate) Seed Oil and Astaxanthin and Tocotrienols and Lycopene and alpha D-Tocopherol and Thioctic Acid and Lutein, Phytosterols, Ceramide-3.

(The liquid crystals are also great by themselves, though!)

free skin care · Fri Jul 11, 2008 1:55 pm

Lowbrowscientist wrote:

ETA: Skin Actives has a product called "ELS" (Every Lipid Serum) that looks like it would be perfect, since it contains ceramides and the liquid crystals. This might be easier than formulating from scratch, if you're not a DIYer.

ELS ingredients:

Squalane and Olea Europea (olive) fruit extract, Rosa rubiginosa (rosehip) seed oil, Punica granatum (pomegranate) seed oil, Lecithin, Cholesterol Oleyl Carbonate and Cholesteryl Nanoate and Cholesteryl Chloride <--these are the liquid crystals, Punica granatum (pomegranate) Seed Oil and Astaxanthin and Tocotrienols and Lycopene and alpha D-Tocopherol and Thioctic Acid and Lutein, Phytosterols, Ceramide-3.

(The liquid crystals are also great by themselves, though!)

Wow...this looks great! What a great find.

Quote:

ELS Base Serum - 'Every Lipid Serum' with Ceramide

$9.50 per 0.5 fl. oz.

This serum contains every lipid your skin needs.

It is specifically designed to help repair the skin barrier (squalane, ceramides) and supply all lipids your skin needs, including essential fatty acids (in rosehip oil), and other lipids your skin can synthesize but may not be making in sufficient amounts.

The serum will rejuvenate broken, dry skin that does not provide a good barrier against the environment.

Properties: moisturizing (lipophilic), nutritive, for scars and stretch marks.

Use: The serum base can be used directly on the skin as a daily rejuvenating serum. Alternatively add some of our other actives to create a world class serum targeted
to your needs. Perfect with CoQ10, GABA, and our other lipophilic actives. Please note that that ALA is already included in the serum and addtional quantities will be hard to dissolve into it.

Further information: Our stratum corneum consists of the corneocytes (flattened cells that have lost their nuclei) embedded in a lipid mixture consisting mainly of ceramides,
cholesterol, and fatty acids. Loss of skin lipids result in an increased water loss and increased penetration of harmful compounds, especially for people living in big cities. Continuous use of this serum will alleviate skin dryness and sensitivity.

http://www.skinactives.com/products/every_lipid_serum.htm

I am going to have to see if any of these any anti-inflmmatories...if NOT, this would be great to use right after a roll.

If there ARE any anti-inflammatories in there, I would wait at least 24 hours after a roll.

EDITING to ADD: There ARE anti-inflammatories in there, in the form of Phytosterols. I would use this at least 24-48 hours after a roll.

Fri Jul 11, 2008 4:43 pm

Chiming in here with some questions re: the article Bethany referenced concerning inflammation.
Ok, the article mentions AHA's, microdermabrasion which either remove or partially remove the epidermis. And I'm sorry but the irritation flaking, etc. with retinoids amounts to the same thing, if only temporarily (yeah, right Rolling Eyes

).
It seems a slight leap to compare rolling, done sensibly which leaves most of the epidermis in tact with burning or filing off the epidermis, no?
It seems to me, that yes, there is of course inflammation, but that inflammation can be far more controlled with rolling and a mostly in tact epidermis (protective layer of skin) than it can with the procedures mentioned in the article which destroys the epidermis? No?
It's apples and oranges at this point, but I think it's wise to take the article into account and make sure that first, you are doing no harm.
Rolling takes patience (and a hell of a lot of vino to control the ouchies if you ask moi... Bad Grin

). Slow is better, less may be more, common sense need apply, but paranoia? No. This is NOT a brand spanking new technology. The only thing that's new about it is that they don't use tattoo needles only for severe acne scarring, but needles on a roller for many other purposes...

free skin care · Fri Jul 11, 2008 6:01 pm

Tigerlilly wrote:

Slow is better, less may be more, common sense need apply, but paranoia? No. This is NOT a brand spanking new technology. The only thing that's new about it is that they don't use tattoo needles only for severe acne scarring, but needles on a roller for many other purposes...

I totally agree that paranoia is NOT warranted, lol...I actually feel far BETTER about rolling now that I have read thus article, and may actually roll more frequently than I was initially planning.

But some of us prefer to be as informed as possible, and to follow any protective guidelines where possible. And once people are fully informed, they can do whatever they want.

free skin care · Fri Jul 11, 2008 6:13 pm

I just wanted to say thanks to Tigerlilly for bringing to my attention that I am being paranoid.

At the end of the day, people who want to be informed will do their own research. And even though I will continue to do my own research, I don't have to create paranoia by sharing it with people who aren't really interested.

The good news is that this will free up LOTS of time for me Very Happy

.

Happy rolling!!

free skin care · Fri Jul 11, 2008 6:15 pm

Tigerlilly wrote:

It seems a slight leap to compare rolling, done sensibly which leaves most of the epidermis in tact with burning or filing off the epidermis, no?

I don't know that anyone is comparing the actual mechanics, but they do both result in some inflammation and regardless of the cause, long term inflammation causes more harm than good. I've actually read similar things in rosacea literature, though I hadn't connected it to rolling. It makes sense, though.

Tigerlilly wrote:

It seems to me, that yes, there is of course inflammation, but that inflammation can be far more controlled with rolling and a mostly in tact epidermis (protective layer of skin) than it can with the procedures mentioned in the article which destroys the epidermis? No?

I agree that with rolling there is more control. This is one of a few reasons I prefer rolling to acid use or chemical peels. Well, and to other procedures, too : )

Tigerlilly wrote:

It's apples and oranges at this point,

Again, the actual mechanics may be different, but the inflammation is still a potentially negative side effect of both procedures (rolling and acids). With so little known about micro-needling and the long-term effects, I definitely don't consider it paranoia to use caution until we know more.

By the way, I do totally agree that we should use common sense and take care not to cause harm to our skin. Of all the skin care "tools" I've read about on this forum and elsewhere, so far rolling seems to have the most potential for the best value, so I'm totally on board with it... I just think we should take the risks seriously and be absolutely sure we're doing it safely. My skin tends to be more sensitive and reactionary than most, so for me, at least, the information is worth taking seriously. I guess everyone's mileage will vary.

Fri Jul 11, 2008 6:24 pm

bethany wrote:

Tigerlilly wrote:

Slow is better, less may be more, common sense need apply, but paranoia? No. This is NOT a brand spanking new technology. The only thing that's new about it is that they don't use tattoo needles only for severe acne scarring, but needles on a roller for many other purposes...

I totally agree that paranoia is NOT warranted, lol...I actually feel far BETTER about rolling now that I have read thus article, and may actually roll more frequently than I was initially planning.

*****************************************

Ah, I see. I agree with you. I'm not going to do aggressive rolls (I'm on my 90 day break), and I'm going to be cautious, just not overly so. I mean, bottom line is, we can win some battles against ageing, but we're not winning the war if we live long enough, no matter what you do or don't do. You still have to protect your skin, no matter what it looks like or what you are doing to it.
All I'm expecting from this is to look good for my age (40) and hopefully a little younger...anything else is the cherry on top of my icecream Sundae...
Yeah, I think we should be informed, definitely!!!! I just think apply caution and common sense until the science of this article in and of iteself is conclusive (which it isn't) and it includes scientific studies of rolling (which it doesn't). That doesn't mean we shouldn't think twice about what we are doing to our skin. WE SHOULD! And I thank you for posting the article...I just question how much we should really take it to heart at this point. That's all...I'm not criticizing you for posting it, quite the opposite! Smile

***********************************************
But some of us prefer to be as informed as possible, and to follow any protective guidelines where possible. And once people are fully informed, they can do whatever they want.

*********************************************

We are on the same page sister. Informed is knowing all sides of the arguement and questioning any info that comes in. That's my only point.

Fri Jul 11, 2008 6:30 pm

bethany wrote:

I just wanted to say thanks to Tigerlilly for bringing to my attention that I am being paranoid.

At the end of the day, people who want to be informed will do their own research. And even though I will continue to do my own research, I don't have to create paranoia by sharing it with people who aren't really interested.

The good news is that this will free up LOTS of time for me Very Happy

.

Happy rolling!!

**********************************************

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! That's not how I meant it at all! Please, please. The more information the better! Oh, I feel bad now! No, I'm not good with writing. You should post these articles! I WANT you to! I just think they merit discussion is all! I swear! And I'll shut the hell up... Aw, I feel bad...If I were rich, I'd buy you a brand new Dr. Roller... Crying or Very sad

No, just as people are gonna roll the way they want, people are gonna do with information the way they want. It's human nature... Neutral

free skin care · Fri Jul 11, 2008 6:42 pm

As I said when I first posted this article, I never expected everyone to agree with me.

And I am ALL for discussion, but stating that I am creating paranoia is NOT neutral "discussion." And I don't want people to shut up and take things ANYONE says at face value...discussions are how we all learn.

But that's ok....I'll just chalk it up to a lesson learned, and we can all move on. Very Happy

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