DermaRoller
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free skin care · Mon Nov 10, 2008 8:40 pm

taobunny wrote:

If the endorphins don't kick in in time - you could always show them your skeery picture, Bethany... I'm sure your co-workers would back away very slowly if you show them the picture and say "Look, this is what I do to MYSELF - just imagine what I could do to YOU whilst in the grips of a bad mood!" Laughing

Sheesh...I could have used this suggestion last week while dealing with a PITA grumpy old man I work with! Maybe I'll change my avatar on my IM to that pic! Shock

free skin care · Mon Nov 10, 2008 8:55 pm

platinumrose wrote:

dear lord Bethany- I have not checked in with you in a few months and YIKES!!!! I do have the video for Flex Effect.......Need to pull it out of the drawer and start doing it.

I think I am sticking with my baby needle from L & R, Retin A, Vitamin C, Injections of Radiesse and calling it a day. Maybe no pain no gain but all I can say is YIKES.

I know...it is rather frightening looking, isn't it? I looked at those pics, and rather thought I had lost my mind as well!

Here's an update since this weekend's bloody roll...

- I suspect that the numbing cream may have actually burned the top layer of my skin. Embarassed

By the very next day my face was starting to crack...not good! I have already peeled a full layer off the majority of my face, and some parts are actually starting to peel again. Shock

- My chest was not really too pleased with the longer needles. Or maybe it was the Retin A that I applied the next day...either way, I am currently sporting some nice hives. I did use some hydrocortisone earlier in the day, but now I have reverted back to being liberally coated in 302 A Boost and Lightening Drops. That includes my face...my skin is too irritated to put anything on it at all (no MMU, no sunscreen) other than the 302.

- I may do some targeted rolls just on my forehead and lines in a couple of weeks, but I will not be rolling my chest for at least 6 weeks. It usually takes at least that long to fully heal, and rolling again any sooner than that will make it hypersensitive.

- In the meantime, I am a very mottled red color...not the most attractive, to say the least. People stared at me at the grocery store last night. Oh well...

Tue Nov 11, 2008 12:57 am

Wow Bethany! You are hard core. I am really considering dermarolling.

Would love to see more progress pics as you heal up now and the next couple of days. I am very sorry you had such an allergic reaction to the cream. I am very sensitive to the derms numbing creams too my skin does not like it. I've had sculptra injected (total waste of money 30000) and thermage about 4 years ago (also a total waste of money) unless you can afford at least 6 treatments and I could only afford 1.

Do you have any photos of you before you started rolling?

Can you give us details as to how rolling has made such dramatic improvements and share with us how many rolls it's taken you to get as far as you have.

I have read most the posts in the derma roll section but that was at least 3 weeks ago Then I really took notice when you posted your pics.

Thank you so much for sharing your experience and wisdom with us. You are very much appreciated!!!!

free skin care · Tue Nov 11, 2008 6:48 am

Oh bethany - from the sound of your reaction to your last roll, I'd say ...
You have some sensitive skin. yowzaa!!

I still want to do a more aggressive roll next time. I didn't have a reaction when I applied my Retin A before rolling. I did give 30 minutes before applying the numbing cream, tho. And I apply my CPs just B4 and immedicately after. I'm hoping with the new Emla, that I can get some results like you (without the hives!)

Good luck healing GF

free skin care · Tue Nov 11, 2008 4:48 pm

betsyaida wrote:

Wow Bethany! You are hard core. I am really considering dermarolling.

Would love to see more progress pics as you heal up now and the next couple of days. I am very sorry you had such an allergic reaction to the cream. I am very sensitive to the derms numbing creams too my skin does not like it. I've had sculptra injected (total waste of money 30000) and thermage about 4 years ago (also a total waste of money) unless you can afford at least 6 treatments and I could only afford 1.

Do you have any photos of you before you started rolling?

Can you give us details as to how rolling has made such dramatic improvements and share with us how many rolls it's taken you to get as far as you have.

I have read most the posts in the derma roll section but that was at least 3 weeks ago Then I really took notice when you posted your pics.

Thank you so much for sharing your experience and wisdom with us. You are very much appreciated!!!!

Betsy, here is an overview of my rolling history.

I don't really have any wrinkly pictures to show you, as I was a Botox user for several years. I didn't start rolling until a month+ after my Botox was completely worn off, and I have not had any touchups since....I was spending $800+ every 3 months or so, so that is a welcome savings. My derm didn't even think I needed any now except in my forehead. Rolling Eyes

However, if I don't see a significant decline in those forehead wrinkles between now and March, I will get them injected in April. (I am leaving them there now so that I can clearly see them when rolling)

I do have some "before" cheek pigmentation pics, but I have NOT seen enough improvement there to even bother posting comparison shots. Sad

But I significantly bumped up the strength of the products I am using, and hope to have a more positive result to share in 6 months.

Rolling History:
I did a series of 6 rolls (1 per week) starting in mid-May with a 1.0mm Dr. Roller and 1.0mm 3Line Dr. Roller and then took a 90 day break. I now only roll once every 4-6 weeks, and will not be taking future breaks.

Topicals:
The only topicals I use when rolling are RA (face and arms only), and 302 A Boost and Lightening Drops on all areas for the next 3 days in order to replicate Dr. Fernandes' professional protocol (though he actually uses the Environ EssentiA Oil). I have used CPs, but don't think they are essential at all.

I was also using 302 topicals on a daily basis, along with RA 1x a week....including when I was on my 90 day rolling break.

Dermarolling Results:
After a total of 4 months, I saw:
- 90% of my crowsfeet eliminated
- 75% of my glabellas (11's) eliminated
- 30% of my forehead lines eliminated and the rest softened
- 97% of my milia eliminated
- 80% of a neck/collarbone line eliminated
- 80% of the pigmentation eliminated from my hands

I had a VISIA Complexion Analysis done on 9/18 that showed the following, and I will be using this as a baseline for future improvement.
- Fine lines and wrinkles - 99%
- Hyperpigmentation (age/dark spots) - 73%
- Enlarged pores - 97%
- Texture (skin smoothness) - 85%
- Sun damage (UV spots) - 105 counted in the designated area

I have been very fortunate to see results of this magnitude so quickly, especially since I roll way less than most people. And I am definitely expecting/hoping to see more improvement over the next 12 months.

However, though many people do not see these results unless they roll more frequently, and for a longer time period. However, 6 to 7 months seems to be the point where most people start seeing results.[/quote]

free skin care · Tue Nov 11, 2008 10:55 pm

foxe wrote:

Oh bethany - from the sound of your reaction to your last roll, I'd say ...
You have some sensitive skin. yowzaa!!

I still want to do a more aggressive roll next time. I didn't have a reaction when I applied my Retin A before rolling. I did give 30 minutes before applying the numbing cream, tho. And I apply my CPs just B4 and immedicately after. I'm hoping with the new Emla, that I can get some results like you (without the hives!)

Good luck healing GF

Foxe, I am actually healing up quite nicely. Smile

From everything I have read, I definitely think that less frequent intense rolls are the way to go (vs. more frequent lighter rolls). Hopefully the EMLA will help you.

A post roll update (after 3 full days)...
I am still a bit red in some places, but the peeling on my face is done for the most part and my skin is way less irritated. I am still only using 302 topicals a couple of times a day, and will try using my regular topicals on my face starting Wednesday PM.

I am going to wait a couple more days before doing so on my finicky chest however. As soon as the hives started, I applied hydrocortisone 2x that day, and it stopped them in their tracks. I used to try and wait as long as possible before doing so, but then they really became out of control and the itching was unbearable...it would then take a week to resolve. Sad

This way I head off the problem at the first sign, and am able to limit my usage since it suppresses skin rejuventation.

I have planned out my rolls for the rest of the calendar year. I am going to do a targeted roll (forehead lines and neck lines) in 3 weeks and one more full roll in 6 or 7 weeks. Then I will take a few months off and do Nu Derm.

free skin care · Wed Nov 12, 2008 3:52 pm

Day 4 update...

I was able to resume my regular topicals today on both my face and chest. No more itching or hives, but I still have residual redness on both my face and chest. I anticipate that it will last through at least Friday for my face, and Sunday for my chest.

All in all, I consider it a very successful roll. But I am looking forward to not rolling again for the next few weeks. Very Happy

Thu Nov 13, 2008 8:36 pm

Thank you Bethany for your brave blow by blow descriptions and the picture, egad.

I appreciate all of the forum-ists for their experiences and knowledge, thanks.

I took your suggestion of obtaining some Retin A, have not used it for years as I was very sensitive then. So starting with 0.01%, every 3 days. I suspect I can ramp it up.

My worry is that after rolling my chin and nose, which both have enlarged pores and blackheads, I have induced pustules where I thought my acne had subsided. It has also induced a few pustules on my chest. The facial rolls are with 0.25 and the chest with 1.0 and no anaesthetic creams.

I was reluctant to roll alcohol or antiseptics into my skin as I am prone to broken blood vessels and redness.

The big question for me is can I roll without waking up 40 years of acne, which antiseptics are least irritating, or maybe my skin will get tough?

Thank You

free skin care · Fri Nov 14, 2008 11:59 am

Planti wrote:

I took your suggestion of obtaining some Retin A, have not used it for years as I was very sensitive then. So starting with 0.01%, every 3 days. I suspect I can ramp it up.

My worry is that after rolling my chin and nose, which both have enlarged pores and blackheads, I have induced pustules where I thought my acne had subsided. It has also induced a few pustules on my chest. The facial rolls are with 0.25 and the chest with 1.0 and no anaesthetic creams.

Planti, I would recommend using the Retin A for 4 to 6 weeks prior to rolling...that will help move out any pustules under your skin, and then you will not have to worry about bacteria spreading when you roll. Plus, you skin will be much better prepared for skin rejuvenation when you do roll.

If you do want to use a topical numbing cream down the road, I have found that lidocaine is the least irritating for me. You can get that in the Climax Spray from Alldaychemist, or in the EMLA cream (which also has some other numbing ingredient).

free skin care · Fri Nov 14, 2008 1:49 pm

bethany wrote:

Day 4 update...

I was able to resume my regular topicals today on both my face and chest. No more itching or hives, but I still have residual redness on both my face and chest. I anticipate that it will last through at least Friday for my face, and Sunday for my chest.

Day 6 update (Friday)...my cheeks are still a bit pink, but everything else is back to normal after the mega roll. My chest even looks far better than expected...that may be due to using the ZO Growth Factor Serum 2x a day for the last couple of days.

free skin care · Fri Nov 14, 2008 7:37 pm

Bethany

I have finished reading the last 20+ pages of this thread and the protocol thread.

I am interested in the dermaroller for two reasons, I want to increase absorption of my topicals and to get rid of my 11's and some lines under my eyes.

I plan to buy a 0.25 mm to help with topical absorption and 1mm 3Line roller to help with my 11's and lines under my eyes. Do you think this is the right approach?

I searched online and found this antibacterial cleanser from Sebamed.

http://www.pharmacyonline.com.au/sebamed-clear-face-antibacterial-cleansing-foam-150ml-p-6397.html

Do you think it is strong enough for dermarolling purposes? I should add that I am going to start on the 302 skincare range and am just waiting for the products to arrive. I have in the meantime stopped using my Cosmedix retinol treatment (Refine). I intend to start rollling about 2 weeks after I have built in the 302 A Boost and C Boost into my regimen. I will first start with a weekly roll with .25mm and see how I go. As I don't work at home and my work involves contact with many people, I don't think I can try out a more intense roll with needles more 1mm.

Here's my suggested protocol.

Cleanse face with antibacterial cleanser (eg Sebamed)
Soak roller in alcohol (is methylated spirit the same thing) and rinse in hot water
Roll as per protocol (hope I don't need a numbing cream to start off as I am going to use the .25mm)
Wash with antibacterial cleanser
Wait 30 minutes (do I really need to wait that long) and apply 302 A Boost
Can I apply 302 Recovery Plus afterwards?

Apply 302 C Boost and Recovery Minerals (for sunscreen) the next day.

I hope I am not boring members here by repeating the procedure but I want to make sure that I understood everything.

If I do a roll on Saturday afternoon/night with the .25 mm, will I be able to go back to work on Monday without looking bruised.

My special thanks to Bethany for doing such a lot of research into this area. I hope you have great results from your last intense roll. I am too chicken to try something that intense.

Fri Nov 14, 2008 8:01 pm

Yes Bethany, you are obviously right, if this is giving me infected pores then I need to do something first. Thanks for that. I will try to desist, it will be difficult.

I now have brand new .25 and .5 Dr. Rollers from Estonia as of today. I will leave off the nose and chin, the areas of thin red skin and largest pores until the retin A has had some time to work.

Interesting though, I have an old white slightly raised scar on my forearm that I have experimented with. Rolled with the 1.0 pretty thoroughly, then rubbed in super cop 2x and covered with a silicone patch. It has peeled and is already less raised and closer to the surrounding skin tone after about 4 days.

Who needs a sailboat, Harley, tickets to Patagonia when you can have such productive and fun time at home?

Fri Nov 14, 2008 8:46 pm

I was enthused about Sebamed until I bought some, it was bright torquoise in colour and had so much scent it made me sneeze (I am not a sensitive person). I just could not use it, and eventually it got weeded.

Please tell me they have changed their formula.

free skin care · Fri Nov 14, 2008 9:15 pm

Planti wrote:

Interesting though, I have an old white slightly raised scar on my forearm that I have experimented with. Rolled with the 1.0 pretty thoroughly, then rubbed in super cop 2x and covered with a silicone patch. It has peeled and is already less raised and closer to the surrounding skin tone after about 4 days.

Keep in mind that immediate results are generally just due to inflammation or micro-inflammation, sigh. If you still see an improvement after 3 months of not rolling, then it is most likely real. Smile

free skin care · Fri Nov 14, 2008 10:30 pm

I've been doing lightstim regularly and forgot about my dermarollers for a while. I was interested to see those videos because, I, too, had been doing long strokes. Thanks for the link.

BEthany, is it a foregone conclusion that there are no benefits without blood? If I did a job on myself like you did, I would wind up with huge scabs and heal with scars.

free skin care · Sat Nov 15, 2008 3:28 am

Planti wrote:

I was enthused about Sebamed until I bought some, it was bright torquoise in colour and had so much scent it made me sneeze (I am not a sensitive person). I just could not use it, and eventually it got weeded.

Please tell me they have changed their formula.

Thanks for letting me know, Planti. Any other suggestions what I can use for as an antibacterial/antiseptic cleanser. There aren't too many alternatives in Australia, sigh!

free skin care · Sat Nov 15, 2008 5:43 pm

Ninetynine wrote:

Bethany

I have finished reading the last 20+ pages of this thread and the protocol thread.

THANK YOU for doing some reading...you are off to a fabulous start!

Ninetynine wrote:

I am interested in the dermaroller for two reasons, I want to increase absorption of my topicals and to get rid of my 11's and some lines under my eyes.

I plan to buy a 0.25 mm to help with topical absorption and 1mm 3Line roller to help with my 11's and lines under my eyes. Do you think this is the right approach?

The .25mm is definitely a good option for topicals, and it is also a great way to introduce yourself to rolling. Using it 2-3 times a week will also help increase your epidermal thickness by 30% in 2-3 months.

The 3Line is definitely the best for around the eyes and the 11's...I was able to eliminate the majority of my crowsfeet with the 1.0mm, but have now moved up to the 1.5mm. If you have deep lines, a high tolerance for pain, or want to see results sooner rather than later, I would start with the 1.5mm Otherwise, the 1.0mm will be great, and you will have a higher pain tolerance if/when you eventually move to the 1.5mm. (being completely honest, there was no way that I could have started with the 1.5mm 3Line)

Ninetynine wrote:

I searched online and found this antibacterial cleanser from Sebamed.

http://www.pharmacyonline.com.au/sebamed-clear-face-antibacterial-cleansing-foam-150ml-p-6397.html

Do you think it is strong enough for dermarolling purposes?

I think any basic anti-bacterial cleanser ought to be fine...I use Bactine. But keep in mind that you will see most likely need some numbing cream like EMLA for around your eyes and 11's.

Ninetynine wrote:

I intend to start rollling about 2 weeks after I have built in the 302 A Boost and C Boost into my regimen. I will first start with a weekly roll with .25mm and see how I go. As I don't work at home and my work involves contact with many people, I don't think I can try out a more intense roll with needles more 1mm.

It sounds like the 1.0mm 3Line might be best for you to start with...you can always upgrade to a 1.5mm down the road after you see how you react the 1.0mm. But chances are very good that if you roll on Friday night and go back to work on Monday, you will look just fine.

Ninetynine wrote:

Here's my suggested protocol.

Cleanse face with antibacterial cleanser (eg Sebamed)
Soak roller in alcohol (is methylated spirit the same thing) and rinse in hot water
Roll as per protocol (hope I don't need a numbing cream to start off as I am going to use the .25mm)
Wash with antibacterial cleanser
Wait 30 minutes (do I really need to wait that long) and apply 302 A Boost
Can I apply 302 Recovery Plus afterwards?

Apply 302 C Boost and Recovery Minerals (for sunscreen) the next day.

I hope I am not boring members here by repeating the procedure but I want to make sure that I understood everything.

I don't think you need to wait 30 mins after washing since you are not using Retin A.

And methylated spirits are not the same thing as the rubbing alcohol we use here...I don't know enough about it to know if you can use that on your skin or not.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubbing_alcohol

Ninetynine wrote:

If I do a roll on Saturday afternoon/night with the .25 mm, will I be able to go back to work on Monday without looking bruised.

Most people see nothing but some slight redness for a short time after a .25mm roll. I personally see redness for about 24 hours, but have never had any bruising since it only penetrates the epidermis.

Ninetynine wrote:

My special thanks to Bethany for doing such a lot of research into this area. I hope you have great results from your last intense roll. I am too chicken to try something that intense.

You are VERY welcome. Unfortunately, I won't see any collagen results for maybe 4 months, but I have already peeled like crazy which is good for my hyperpigmentation! Very Happy

free skin care · Sat Nov 15, 2008 5:58 pm

chinachatters wrote:

I've been doing lightstim regularly and forgot about my dermarollers for a while. I was interested to see those videos because, I, too, had been doing long strokes. Thanks for the link.

BEthany, is it a foregone conclusion that there are no benefits without blood? If I did a job on myself like you did, I would wind up with huge scabs and heal with scars.

China, there is really nothing to scab over, since all the holes are so tiny.

As far as if there are results without bleeding, you need the bleeding and platelet release to trigger the wound healing cascasde. That means that you need to have bleeding at least under the skin.

I would assume that not everyone is going to bleed as copiously as me, but you should be seeing a significant number of blood pin dots at an absolute minimum....if you don't, you may not be puncturing the dermis. Or you may need to use Vit A on a more frequent basis to increase the vascular network within your skin. (I didn't start bleeding like crazy until I started using retinol or Retin A every day, but even my .25mm showed blood dots prior to that)

free skin care · Sat Nov 15, 2008 10:18 pm

Thanks Bethany.

I've managed to find an antiseptic for soaking the roller but still am looking for a spray and a wipe for my face.

I about to order my rollers from Jack.

free skin care · Sun Nov 16, 2008 9:09 am

Article on dermarolling on smartskincare.com by Dr. Todorov.

http://www.smartskincare.com/treatments/noninvasive/skin-needling.html

free skin care · Sun Nov 16, 2008 9:45 am

rileygirl wrote:

Article on dermarolling on smartskincare.com by Dr. Todorov.

http://www.smartskincare.com/treatments/noninvasive/skin-needling.html

That was a nice, easy to understand summary of rolling! I'm going to post it on the dermarolling article thread.

free skin care · Sun Nov 16, 2008 9:53 am

Thanks, Bethany. Was not sure where to put that link for everyone to read!

free skin care · Sun Nov 16, 2008 11:54 am

Hi Bethany - and Everyone!

So, I finally took the plunge and started dermarolling again. (I've been on Nu Derm - so my skin has been sort of traumatized - so I've been waiting until things calmed down a bit.)

I cleansed thoroughly and numbed with Tridocaine (which seemed to do absolutely squat - so Emla is now on order... Confused

). I just rolled a few places (my forehead and a few spots on my cheeks - just to test.) I used the 1.5 Dr. Roller.

I got a bunch of little bloody dots (normal) and everything seemed to go well. But, when I washed my face after the roll - I was left with a face full of little bloody dots. (Yes, folks - they stayed on - because they were under the surface of the skin!) They almost looked like little blood blisters - but not raised. Needless to say, this was a bit disconcerting - and made the use of makeup for the next few days pretty much mandatory.

The bloody dots have resolved fairly quickly (I rolled on Wednesday night - and by today (Saturday) they are faded quite a bit.) The skin over the spots I rolled thickened and then peeled off - leaving smoother skin! Yay, for that!

But, the bloody dots were really a problem. (I looked like I got dragged behind a pickup truck or something!) So, now I'm wondering what I did wrong? (I've only really used the 0.5 before and never had this result.) It's a nearly brand new Dr. Roller - so I know the needles are still sharp. I tried to stay at right angles to the skin (though, because of the pain factor, I might not have been quite as accurate as I should have been.) Are the bloody dots that remain under the skin to be expected every time?

Help!!! Your advice and input would be greatly appreciated!

free skin care · Sun Nov 16, 2008 2:36 pm

taobunny wrote:

I got a bunch of little bloody dots (normal) and everything seemed to go well. But, when I washed my face after the roll - I was left with a face full of little bloody dots. (Yes, folks - they stayed on - because they were under the surface of the skin!) They almost looked like little blood blisters - but not raised. Needless to say, this was a bit disconcerting - and made the use of makeup for the next few days pretty much mandatory.

It sounds like what we often refer to as trackmarks...I can usually see them on my forehead or under my eyes when I roll, and they are basically little bruises. They are actually a good sign, and an indicator that you hit the dermis.

After I roll, I spend a good 10 minutes just flushing my skin in the shower, and that has helped quite a bit. But if the spots are totally under the skin and cannot be flushed out, you are stuck with them until they dissipate on their own.

I wouldn't worry about keeping the roller at right angles...just press down and roll forwards and backwards. The roller head is weighted, and the needles are already prepositioned for the best angle. Anything outside of that could cause pulling or tearing. You just want to focus on creating as many holes are possible, and changing the direction so that you puncture new areas.

free skin care · Sun Nov 16, 2008 4:54 pm

bethany wrote:

It sounds like what we often refer to as trackmarks...I can usually see them on my forehead or under my eyes when I roll, and they are basically little bruises. They are actually a good sign, and an indicator that you hit the dermis.

After I roll, I spend a good 10 minutes just flushing my skin in the shower, and that has helped quite a bit. But if the spots are totally under the skin and cannot be flushed out, you are stuck with them until they dissipate on their own.

I wouldn't worry about keeping the roller at right angles...just press down and roll forwards and backwards. The roller head is weighted, and the needles are already prepositioned for the best angle. Anything outside of that could cause pulling or tearing. You just want to focus on creating as many holes are possible, and changing the direction so that you puncture new areas.

Thanks, Bethany... Okay, so now I can tell everyone who asks - "Oh, those are just my trackmarks" LOL... I can just imagine the expressions on people's faces...

Thank you for the advice - I'll definitely try this again - and will try to spend some time in the shower afterwards, as I'm hoping that'll help. (I definitely did try to create as many holes as possible, so that could be why I got such a good result afterwards...) Will keep ya'll posted.

Happy Rolling, Everyone! Laughing

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