DermaRoller
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free skin care · Sun Nov 03, 2013 6:16 pm

Did my first needling on Saturday. I used HA, but, the needler seemd to 'stick' in some places. I'm not sure if maybe I wasn't holding my skin tight enough or what. Anyone else ever had this problem?

free skin care · Sat Nov 16, 2013 9:55 am

Are you using the My-M pen leathal?

My pen "sticks" (doesnt glide as well) when I use it on my arms, since I cant hold the skin taut there with the hand Im using for the pen (need 3 hands!) So to answer your question, yes, I think holding the skin taut makes a difference in how well the pen moves across the skin.

Wed Dec 11, 2013 4:57 pm

I can confirm with the forum participants here that derma rollers do actually work and I look years younger. I had treatment for almost 3 years.

Sun Dec 15, 2013 11:29 am

Hi Alice, thanks for letting us know that derma rolling is working for you. Just wondering what your protocol has been and what skin condition you have been treating? Thanks! Smile

free skin care · Mon Dec 16, 2013 9:11 pm

"I didn't feel you consistently got the desired penetration across the entire head." Haha, yes, the 'fakir effect' described by Sarah Vaughn at Owndoc.

I get all my things from Owndoc, and have been happy with deliveries and quality.

My last session was interesting: I've been at this now for over a year and it's getting much less painful - presumably due to thicker skin.

I particularly like the 1.5 mm dermastamp (35 needles), because it gets thorough penetration and is great over the lips and in my deep paranthesis lines. Somehow, stamps seem to hurt a lot less than rollers, while feeling and looking like they are penetrating better. My target zones were a 'bloody mess' afterwards but healed up very quickly.

free skin care · Wed Dec 18, 2013 5:53 pm

I did the deepest roll I've ever done, last night. Aye yi yi...I've never looked this bad the day after. It was a very bloody roll with my 2mm--not pin pricks of blood, but dripping blood! I wonder if it is the Vitamin E I'm taking or if I just rolled harder than I ever have. Ok...So I'm wondering if I can use my Anti Aging Light Stim,(AALS). I know I've asked that question before, but I don't remember the answer. Can it be used a couple of days after the roll?

free skin care · Wed Dec 18, 2013 7:58 pm

Mountaingirl,

Lightstim is anti-flammatory; so it depends on you if you'd like to take the path of anti-inflammation or not.

To me, I use anti-inflammatory topical serums on Day 5.

Fri Dec 20, 2013 3:59 am

I just discovered this forum today and wanted to thank everyone here for the wealth of information Very Happy

I spent a good amount of time tonight reading posts on here.

Quick summary of my situation: I got into a tragic bicycle accident six months ago. It left me with multiple hand abrasions and a long ~4 inch facial laceration above my eye. The laceration had to be stitched up. Since the accident, I've been using silicone sheets consistently for 10+ hours a day. The facial scar extrudes outward slightly, but has healed up decently. It is still quite visible. I contemplated surgical scar revision or laser treatment, but derma rolling has heavily caught my attention recently.

I am thinking about buying a 0.5mm microneedle derma roller by M.T (on Amazon). I'll use it twice a week after showering. It should be worth noting that I am a 24 year old male with high pain tolerance. Do you guys have any suggestions as to what type of topical serum/ointment I should be applying to the treated area? Since I'll be focusing treatment on my face, won't it get really messy/smear when I sleep? Avoiding messiness is the reason I chose silicone sheets over Bio Oil for scar treatment thus far. Any tips/advice would be greatly appreciated. Thank you!

free skin care · Fri Dec 20, 2013 6:05 am

bb...welcome to this forum! As for your scar, I don't think a 0.5mm dermaroller is going to do much of anything except maybe help in product pentration. If you want to get rid of the scar you are going to have to go much deeper and use at least a 1.5mm but even better, a 2mm. The latter will require some numbing agent, which you can buy online. I bought something called Topicaine on Amazon that did a good job. You might be able to find something in the drug store too. Since I roll for wrinkles, I can't advise you too much on the frequency or methods for scarring but hopefully others will chime in here that have more experience in that area.
Here is a chart that may help with determining needle size:

http://www.dermarollershop.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/derma-roller-needle-sizes.jpg

free skin care · Fri Dec 20, 2013 12:26 pm

Check out the Owndoc instructions and forum. Full of people who have dealt with this in detail.

Mon Dec 30, 2013 11:53 am

Hi ladies. I am cross-posting this on the estriol cream thread, so sorry if you see it twice. I just want to ask whether anyone has tried estriol/estradiol cream following dermarolling? I have been researching this heavily. At first I felt that estrogen cream would be the perfect topical due to the increased wound healing and collagen deposition. However I read several studies that indicated that although this is true, estrogen also increases scar formation in the new collagen, presumably through an increase in TGF Beta-1. Contrary to this though, there was a study in 1995 where estriol infusion improved acne scars (which is part of what I'm battling). Just wondering what your experiences are on, if any.

free skin care · Wed Jan 01, 2014 3:25 pm

Michi30 wrote:

I just want to ask whether anyone has tried estriol/estradiol cream following dermarolling?

I've spent the last few months considering the same thing, only with Ultrasound instead of needling. I read an article a few months ago in which Dr. Fernandes (one of the pioneers of microneedling) used an Ultrasound device to push estrogen into the skin. Since my focus is on using it with a US device, it limits my options considerably, because all the estrogen creams available to consumers have oils/silicones/other ingredients that would render them ineffective with ultrasound.

But if Fernandez found it worth using, and assuming you can find a formula that's compatible with freshly-needled skin, I think it's worth a shot! Smile

I'm trying to locate that article, by the way, with no luck -- it's probably in one of the ultrasound threads -- but I'll post it if I can find it. Please let us know if/when you decide to go for it, and what brand/formula you settle on!

Thu Jan 02, 2014 12:00 pm

wagashi wrote:

Hi folks! I use a .5 mm dermaroller for skin texture improvement and I was wondering whether anyone has any experience with using both dermarollers and an HF tool of some sort at the same time?

I've read that HF helps the healing process, but I'm not sure if it would further improve the little wounds I'm creating with the dermaroller or if it's something I should avoid using for a few days after dermarolling..

Any advice would be much appreciated!!

I also would like to know what others do. I have started using a .5 derma roller, and have recently purchased a HF tool. Want to work on my neck and jaw area for some sagging issues, as well as the fine lines I am getting. I also have a LightStim for winkles.

Thu Jan 02, 2014 1:41 pm

Lowbrowscientist - That is interesting. What sort of results came from the estrogen/ultrasound combination? I assume with the ultrasound there is no wound creation so it would be safe if you could find a formula that works. Are the prescriptions all incompatible as well?

free skin care · Sun Jan 05, 2014 10:30 am

Michi30 wrote:

Lowbrowscientist - That is interesting. What sort of results came from the estrogen/ultrasound combination? I assume with the ultrasound there is no wound creation so it would be safe if you could find a formula that works. Are the prescriptions all incompatible as well?

I had a long response all ready to go and then my browser crashed Mad

Ah, well, I was rambling anyway...

The short version: Yes, Dr. F's results with the US/estrogen combo were great! As for prescriptions, I only have access to one and I can't seem to find ingredients lists for others (or the one I have, for that matter), but I have a prescription Estriol cream from alldaychemist.com, and it's not moisturizing at all; it has very little "slip" to it and it's hard to spread. That leads me to believe it would be incompatible with US, and I don't think it work that well with dermarolling, either.

However, I could be wrong about that. I also have an OTC Estriol cream (this one, by Life-Flo), and while I'm sure it's not as strong --hence, probably not as effective for topical use on the face-- it MAY be worth using after rolling with a short needle for product penetration. I've just recently started mixing the hard-to-spread prescription cream (which almost more of a paste, texture-wise) with the OTC cream to help it spread easier, so maybe that combination would work.

I might get my .25mm roller out and give this a try tonight. I'm not sure if the best results would come from applying the mixture first and then rolling my skin after application, or rolling first, spritzing my skin with water and then massaging it in, but, I'll post an update after trying this a time or two.

free skin care · Mon Jan 06, 2014 10:55 am

I found the write-up that (briefly) mentions the positive result from topical estriol, penetrated into the skin with ultrasound:

http://www.dermaconcepts.com/documents/0000/0072/Treating_Damaged_Skin.pdf

From pg 3: "Schimdt published the results of iontophoresing retinoic acid or Estriol into skin scarred by acne. This gave results that are comparable with dermabrasion of the skin. Dermabrasion thins the skin and results in an artificial looking surface whereas iontophoresis of the skin nutrients actually makes the skin thicker, healthier and more beautiful." (preceded by a before-after photo)

Rolling the skin is probably a somewhat less effective way to get it in there, but I think trying it with the shorter needles designed for product penetration might yield similar results.

My biggest issue with rolling right now is the immediate post-roll period; I simply can't afford the downtime. Until I can find a sunblock that's both safe on post-needled skin AND contains no anti-inflammatories, I have to avoid doing intense sessions. Even the short-needle rolls require a bit of downtime for me, unfortunately Sad

I'd love to hear how everyone here handles the post-needling downtime, if anyone wants to share Smile

Do any of you just stay house-bound for several days to avoid UV rays? Or are you just using sunblock/makeup right away and going about your daily lives the next day, hoping the treatment will still help anyway?

Mon Jan 06, 2014 11:44 am

So far, I haven't had a problem the next day. I use Olay Regenerist fragrance-free Regenerating Serum after my treatment, which makes my face feel better. Next morning I treat again with the Serum, then the Olay Total Effects frangrance-free UV Moisturizer. A hat helps too, just in case.

Lowbrowscientist wrote:

I found the write-up that (briefly) mentions the positive result from topical estriol, penetrated into the skin with ultrasound:

From pg 3: "Schimdt published the results of iontophoresing retinoic acid or Estriol into skin scarred by acne. This gave results that are comparable with dermabrasion of the skin. Dermabrasion thins the skin and results in an artificial looking surface whereas iontophoresis of the skin nutrients actually makes the skin thicker, healthier and more beautiful." (preceded by a before-after photo)

Rolling the skin is probably a somewhat less effective way to get it in there, but I think trying it with the shorter needles designed for product penetration might yield similar results.

My biggest issue with rolling right now is the immediate post-roll period; I simply can't afford the downtime. Until I can find a sunblock that's both safe on post-needled skin AND contains no anti-inflammatories, I have to avoid doing intense sessions. Even the short-needle rolls require a bit of downtime for me, unfortunately Sad

I'd love to hear how everyone here handles the post-needling downtime, if anyone wants to share Smile

Do any of you just stay house-bound for several days to avoid UV rays? Or are you just using sunblock/makeup right away and going about your daily lives the next day, hoping the treatment will still help anyway?

Mon Jan 06, 2014 1:20 pm

Good info! Thanks. I wonder why no one has tried to repeat that technique for acne scarring. I think it's a great idea to use the estriol just for product penetration where the risk of scarring would be extremely low. It seems counter-intuitive that better healing would equal scarring, but I suppose it's all in the type of collagen that's produced.

free skin care · Mon Jan 06, 2014 2:16 pm

Michi30 wrote:

It seems counter-intuitive that better healing would equal scarring, but I suppose it's all in the type of collagen that's produced.

Yes, exactly! And this is where dermarolling shines. When it's done correctly, it promotes normal collagen production, as opposed to the scar collagen people often get from dermabrasion and lasers. Of course, rolling as intensely as necessary for collagen production is sometimes a challenge for me, so I have to do more frequent sessions over a longer time period. And since rolling TOO frequently (especially when using the longer needles) can also cause more harm than good, I still have some logistics problems I have yet to overcome Laughing

SylviaKatt wrote:

So far, I haven't had a problem the next day. I use Olay Regenerist fragrance-free Regenerating Serum after my treatment, which makes my face feel better. Next morning I treat again with the Serum, then the Olay Total Effects frangrance-free UV Moisturizer. A hat helps too, just in case.

Thanks, Slyvia! How long have you been rolling, and have you seen improvement yet?

Thus far, I've been avoiding all topicals for a few days after rolling because most of them have anti-inflammatory ingredients. (You might want to check the ingredients on your Olay serum, just to make sure!) According to Dr's Fernandes and Liebl (pioneers in needling, whose protocols I try to duplicate the best I can), anti-inflammatories should be strictly avoided for several days post-rolling, because it's the inflammation that triggers the "wound healing cascade" which in turn kick-starts the collagen production.

Dr. Fernandes does use a non-acidic A and C formula on his clients post roll, and a couple months ago I made a DIY version with tetra C and retinyl palmitate in which I took care to avoid adding anything that reduces inflammation. The next time I can find time for an intense roll, I'll be using that. But I really wish I could find a suitable sunscreen Neutral

At this point, I don't trust any sunscreens on post-needled skin, in part because they ALL have anti-inflammatory properties.

Thu Jan 09, 2014 9:19 pm

Lowbrowscientist wrote:

Thanks, Sylvia! How long have you been rolling, and have you seen improvement yet?

I am a newbie roller, just started a few weeks ago. I found this forum after starting. After your suggestion, I purchased a nice cream with vitamin C and used it last night after rolling my face. I am starting with a roller .50 mm, and have also purchased a 1.00 mm roller which I have not tried yet.

What kind of serum do you suggest after a High Frequency treatment? I've read from other people on here that Vitamin C wasn't suggested right after doing the HF treatments.

I've noticed some improvement in my skin, especially in my neck area.... in my late 40s, fighting off the sag!

SylviaKatt

Thu Jan 09, 2014 10:43 pm

Okay, so I was reading an article from the LA time from 2009 where some plastic surgeons were interviewed about dermarolling and:

"(Denver-based plastic surgeon Dr. Christine) Rodgers speculates that the rolling process could produce additional scar tissue that could possibly fill in acne scars, "but I doubt that this would feel like new youthful, soft skin. I think the skin would feel more fibrous and firm, rather than softer and glowing."

I've been wondering if anyone has felt this?

I've rolled a few times and think it's been successful for tightening, but my skin does feel kind of hard, definitely firmer, and I was wondering if maybe I've just dried it out or the dermarolled skin is, in fact a different texture than non-needled skin. Anyone have any comments about this?

Fri Jan 10, 2014 1:39 pm

Right, this is exactly what I'm trying to figure out. I think it is a very fine balance in how much damage to produce to create normal skin vs. scar tissue. There are so many factors that determine the outcome, including length of inflammation, hormones and other individual characteristics. I had subcision to a scar about 5 months ago, and it did fill in somewhat but as hard scar tissue which I'm not thrilled about. If you google scarless healing you will see some research done, but I don't think anyone knows.

free skin care · Fri Jan 10, 2014 8:30 pm

zorilla wrote:

I've rolled a few times and think it's been successful for tightening, but my skin does feel kind of hard, definitely firmer, and I was wondering if maybe I've just dried it out or the dermarolled skin is, in fact a different texture than non-needled skin. Anyone have any comments about this?

Quote: "...research shows that there is no evidence of the formation of scar tissue."

http://www.scribd.com/doc/46025449/Environ-Micro-Needling

If done properly (i.e., carefully and methodically, not dragging the needles or going too quickly, etc), and with a high quality roller using the correct gauge needles, you will form regular collagen instead of scar collagen. This is what separates needling from laser treatments and chemical peels, both of which can and often do create scar collagen because they (intentionally) damage the top layer(s) of skin.

Dense needling, on the other hand, creates many pinprick wounds which trigger the same wound healing cascade as lasers and chemical peels. But since the wounds are fully closed within hours and there's no damage to the skin barrier, you get normal collagen instead of scar collagen.

http://idealimageclinics.com.au/collagen_induction_science.html

MECHANISM OF ACTION IN MICRO-NEEDLING
All this is a very complex process, but the principle is quite easy to understand.
In micro-needling we simply utilise the body self-healing mechanisms. It reacts to the intrusion of micro-needles like it would react to any other skin penetrating object. But the difference is the size of the object - the micro-needle. The intrusion of tiny surgical needles (provided they are professionally designed) is sensed by skin nerve receptors as an injury stimulus. But the needles are so fine and thin that tissue damage is unlikely. The skin integrity actually stays intact. However, this “nerve-stimulus”, transported by electrical signals, triggers the cascade of the healing process. Skin cells, in a radius of 1 to 2 mm around the pricking channel, release growth signals to undifferentiated cells. These signals in return stimulate the proliferation of new cells, e.g. fibroblasts to transform into collagen- and elastin fibres. The task of fibroblasts is, to migrate to the point of intrusion for wound closure. And here comes the trick: The pricking channels, caused by the micro-needles, close very quickly and no tissue lesion can be detected, and none has to be repaired. The transformation for wound repair cells (e.g. fibroblasts and others) is an automatic process – like a one-way road. Their final mission is to transform into collagen fibres. They integrate into the existing collagen formation in the upper dermis. This new fibre formation – in terms of many hundred percent - thickens the skin and fills former atrophic scars. As single needle prick is not worth mentioning. But if thousands of microscopic small needle-pricks are set, the induced collagen formation becomes confluent and forms a new collagen layer. This body reaction is called neo-collagenesis.

In addition, the inner cells that coat our vessels (endothelial cells), and in particular these of our capillaries, are also stimulated to proliferate. They react to this stimulation by sprouting out new capillaries that in return results in more and better blood supply of the skin. This reaction is called neo-angiogenesis.

Edited to add: I know it's very time consuming, but I HIGHLY recommend reading pages 65 through 100 or so before rolling. Start a file, take some notes... you really need to have that knowledge base to maximize your odds of success. Dermarolling is no fun (for me, at least Neutral

) and you'll save yourself a lot of money and hassle by reading carefully before you jump in.

Also, this thread is only one page, and you should also go through these links. But if nothing else, read page 65 through pg 100 or so. You'll save money and your sanity, and your skin will thank you!

By the way, I've never had much luck linking to a specific page, so I really hope this URL works... it SHOULD take you right to page 65:

http://www.essentialdayspa.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=22460&postdays=0&postorder=asc&&start=1600

Fri Jan 10, 2014 9:46 pm

Lowbrowscientist wrote:

By the way, I've never had much luck linking to a specific page, so I really hope this URL works... it SHOULD take you right to page 65:

url here (since I am new, EDS won't allow me to post a url, even if I'm commenting on yours, go figure)

It didn't take me to page 65, but it was easy to flip over to start there.

I will start reading those pages, thanks. Very Happy

Fri Jan 10, 2014 10:14 pm

Hi Lowbrowscientist,

Thanks so much for the link, that is reassuring.

I actually have read this whole (!) thread from start to finish and studied every dermarolling link I found for a year before I started. I've also taken every precaution you have mentioned. I obviously should have stated that, but I do appreciate your concern.

Even so, my skin feels a bit odd now, but I'm starting to think it's Retin A drying my skin out in combination with my new habit of swimming in a chlorinated pool.

I just thought it interesting to bring up the idea that the skin might feel different to some as it tightens, regardless if it is scar tissue or not.

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