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free skin care · Sat Apr 19, 2008 4:42 pm

Personally, I suspect the need for a break is somewhat subjective, and opinion probably varies even between professionals. So to say that "somoene" got the entire concept wrong is probably...wrong. I noticed in the article Cadia referenced, for example, that not all the clients got repeat treatments. Some did, soem didn't. My point being is that they "took a break" (long past the time to heal enough to roll again) to see what the results were going to be. I also suspect there is evidence to support either view, although I'm not motivated enough to find it.

One of the reasons I'm posting this is because I've found (personally and unscientifically) that an extended break from actives and treatmens usually leaves my skin looking better than it did when I quit using whatever it was. My recent experience with on-again, off-again treatments with my Quasar re-confirmed this, but I've has this experience with CP's several times after taking over a month or two break from them. I think the break time should be different not only for different folks but for treatments where the "aggressiveness" differs, and as long as the break is not too long you'll never go amiss. Furhter, I strongly believe that it's possible to overstress your skin with all the wonderful junk that we're into here, particularly when we "layer" agressive treatments like rolling with strong actives like vit. C and retin-A.

While my breaks are usually lifestyle imposed rather than strategic, I may try to start experimenting with deliberate break times to see how they affect my skin. I especially think this will be beneficial when rolling aggressively with the longer needles.

We'll see, I guess. I plan to try to keep track and will update everyone after my break. Laughing

free skin care · Sat Apr 19, 2008 5:21 pm

Yubs, I just read on one of the threads that the doctor behind 302 says that our receptors become accustomed to actives, so rotating and breaks are good.

I don't see how breaks can be bad, well, except for my diet breaks which are very, very bad. Embarassed

free skin care · Sat Apr 19, 2008 5:31 pm

Yubs...I have to agree with you. I think we need to give our skin a break every so often. Since doing all these treatments, rolling, DPL, Retin A, C serums, masks, microfiber cloth scrubs, etc, my skin actually looks worse than when I just used Retin A. When I laid off everything for about 5 days recently, my skin started looking good again...and now that I'm "working it" again, it looks like doodoo. Also...I'm beginning to think the Tetra C I've used as a topical after rolling these last 2 times, is too strong undiluted 'cause my skin looks baaaaaad this week. I think I might do something like 10 days of treatments, then 5 days off. Hmmmmmmm......thanks for bringing this up.

free skin care · Sat Apr 19, 2008 6:24 pm

In regard to the professional needling treatments given by doctors: Dr. Des Fernandes (the pioneer of skin needling) actually uses a tattoo gun to needle his patients - this is done under sedation. As I've said before, I don't think it makes sense to compare professional treatments with home treatments - they are so much more invasive.

In regard to topicals used with needling: Dr. Fernandes recommends using Vitamins A, C and E. Interestingly, he says that he will not needle someone unless they have been using Vitamin A (Retin-A) for three months beforehand. He stresses it is very important to use Retin-A after needling.

There are lots of articles written by Dr. Fernandes about CIT (collagen induction therapy) available on the web. Just google his name or have a look on the Environ skin care sites.

Environ also sell skin rollers for home use. This is their recommendation for home treatment:

TREATMENT

The treatment time can range from 5-20 minutes depending on the speed, accuracy and density.

The treatment should be repeated at home between two to seven times a week. The more frequent the treatment, the better the result. The instrument cannot be "over-used" as the needles will remain sharp for a prolonged time.

If the skin feels sensitive after a treatment, it should not be repeated until the skin feels comfortable. The tiny holes in the horny layer are sealed within a day.

free skin care · Sun Apr 20, 2008 2:29 am

bethany wrote:

I don't see how breaks can be bad, well, except for my diet breaks which are very, very bad. Embarassed

It's not bad, it's just not necessary...except maybe for diets Wink

free skin care · Sun Apr 20, 2008 3:19 am

Yubs wrote:

Personally, I suspect the need for a break is somewhat subjective, and opinion probably varies even between professionals. So to say that "somoene" got the entire concept wrong is probably...wrong. I noticed in the article Cadia referenced, for example, that not all the clients got repeat treatments. Some did, soem didn't. My point being is that they "took a break" (long past the time to heal enough to roll again) to see what the results were going to be. I also suspect there is evidence to support either view, although I'm not motivated enough to find it.

I still mean that. The thing that get mixed up is the alleged need for a break and the need to keep the number of professional treatments to a minimum. To misinterpret the treatments protocols and read rules out of it make a poor basis for understanding.

Of course you are absolutely right that not every client get 6 treatments. Not everyone need that. Remember that the down-time is about 5 days for this kind of rolling. If the performer sees that maybe one would do enough, then they try that first in order to keep the number low. And they have to wait about 90 days to see how it turned out. That's because the real results get visible in the third phase of skin healing. But it has nothing to do with any need for breaks due to some of the more incredible explanations earlier in this thread.

Breaks can be fine, and a break from the roller won't do any harm. If you want to take a break, then that's fine and you should do it. But if you don't, there is no reason to. You can get excellent results in many different ways. IMO the first step should be to get the understanding of why and how it works and then draw up a protocol that works for you.

Happy carefree rolling! Very Happy

Cadia

free skin care · Sun Apr 20, 2008 3:46 am

Cadia, I am so glad you posted this. I have been quite freaking out about what damage I may have done to myself with my continuous rolling. I am coming up for 15 weeks now..no breaks!!!
You may also remember that I thought I had a shorter roller to start with and was rolling most days!! Having said that I think I have proabbly always rolled more lightly than most of you.

But I have got to say, that my skin is looking plumped and good. All pigment blotches are gone, a few light freckles remain, that I don't even mind.

I just botoxed the hell out of my frown lines and crows feet, so I can't really comment on those, but at 41, I am really happy with how my skin looks! I wish I had taken photos.

I am of course continuing, and my body areas have not shown nearly the same improvement...so they will be my new focus.

Yeah for the rollergirls!!!

rebecca

free skin care · Sun Apr 20, 2008 6:27 am

For those of you interested in reading some good info on needling have a look here:
http://www.dermaconcepts.com/cosmetic_medical_roll-cit.asp
There's also an e-brochure that you can download.

free skin care · Sun Apr 20, 2008 6:35 am

sherryf13500 wrote:

Thanks Keliu;
My question now is? If you were to go to the clinic. How often would you go for a treatment? I realize that the treatment there would be more invasive. But how many treatments are recommended. Do you do this for ever? What does the clinic use before a roll and after a roll?
Thanks in advance.

Sorry for not replying to your question before now - I must have missed it somehow.

Regarding your question about the frequency of treatments - I'm sure that this would be determined by the doctor and, of course, the cost of treatments. As for what topicals a clinic would recommend - probably the ones they sell! But as I stated earlier, Dr. Fernandes recommends Vitamins A, C and E. So I use Retin-A, a homemade Vitamin C serum and a 100% pure Vitamin E oil that I buy at the chemist.

free skin care · Sun Apr 20, 2008 7:45 am

Keliu wrote:

In regard to the professional needling treatments given by doctors: Dr. Des Fernandes (the pioneer of skin needling) actually uses a tattoo gun to needle his patients - this is done under sedation. As I've said before, I don't think it makes sense to compare professional treatments with home treatments - they are so much more invasive.

In regard to topicals used with needling: Dr. Fernandes recommends using Vitamins A, C and E. Interestingly, he says that he will not needle someone unless they have been using Vitamin A (Retin-A) for three months beforehand. He stresses it is very important to use Retin-A after needling.

There are lots of articles written by Dr. Fernandes about CIT (collagen induction therapy) available on the web. Just google his name or have a look on the Environ skin care sites.

Environ also sell skin rollers for home use. This is their recommendation for home treatment:

TREATMENT

The treatment time can range from 5-20 minutes depending on the speed, accuracy and density.

The treatment should be repeated at home between two to seven times a week. The more frequent the treatment, the better the result. The instrument cannot be "over-used" as the needles will remain sharp for a prolonged time.

If the skin feels sensitive after a treatment, it should not be repeated until the skin feels comfortable. The tiny holes in the horny layer are sealed within a day.

This is for the cosmetic version, which they sell that is just like the Leaf & Rusher Dermaroller (.35mm) or the .50mm Dr. Roller. Take a look at the reference on the link (re: cosmetic CIT):

http://www.environ.co.za/contents/products/roll_cit/roll_cit_cosmetic.htm

This link is for the medical version here, which is likely 2.0mm +; however, no mention is made of the specific needle length:

http://www.environ.co.za/contents/products/roll_cit/roll_cit_medical.htm

There is no comment anywhere to use it 2-5 a week. In fact, it says in reference to the medical model (quote):

This product is intended to be used for surgical treatments, performed by professionals such as surgeons, dermatologists and trained surgical assistants, as the procedure utilises anaesthesia. It can however, be used by skin care therapist in clinics and treatment centres.

Bottom line, IMO, is that is isn't going to hurt you to use the longer roller (I speak only of the 1.5mm, as it's the most used) more often than 1x a week, it was simply a recommended protocol that many are following. If your skin can handle rolling multiple times a week with a LONG roller, then go for it. However, I doubt it is necessary. When I had my lips injected with Sili 1000, they insisted I wait 8 weeks in order to allow the collagen to form (still haven't had another injection). Consequently, this makes sense to me to allow time to pass in order for the collagen to grow. Is it necessary? Maybe not but for me, it makes sense to follow an ordered plan so I can see what's happening and continue the path or alter it, as needed.

And for the record, rolling does not break down collagen, per se, don't think that what was was said, anyway (it breaks down old collagen fibers); it initializes the creation of it - the natural process of wound repair. That is what we want, new collagen to grow in order to create a more youthful foundation, repair scars, lift and so on. It is logical to me that you should allow it to grow with as little disruption as possible. But hey, to each his/her own.

free skin care · Sun Apr 20, 2008 9:34 am

lillilulu wrote:

Thanks for your response ScotsLass. I checked with my friend and she has the thick form of collagen (apparently there is also a thinner one). I lent her my Quasar SP a while back, and the collagen she had had put in, 3 weeks before, disappeared a week later, and it usually lasts around 6 months so I won't be very popular if it happens with the Dermaroller too! By the way, now I've done my 6 treatments, I'm finding it really hard to resist doing another! I normally roll on Thursday evening and it was so hard to resist. I'm not normally into pain, (I roll without anaesthetic) but I think I miss the high I got from knowing how much better my skin looks after, if you know what I mean.

Thanks lillilulu for answering my question about BabyQ degrading fillers!! I have been combing the resources trying to find the answer to this very question....I thought I had heard this is true somewhere.

free skin care · Sun Apr 20, 2008 9:50 am

This is the best read I've found so far that explains the process in great detail:

http://www.dermogenesis.com/roll-cit/Clinics_of_N_Am_2005.pdf

The most detailed section of the document in regard to collagen induction and how it works after PCI (needling):

Technique of percutaneous collagen induction

The skin is routinely prepared by using topical vitamin A and C and antioxidants for at least 3 weeks, but preferably for 3 months if the skin is very sun damaged. If the stratum corneum is thickened and rough, a series of mild TCA peels (2.5%–5% TCA in a special gel formulation) will get the surface of the skin prepared for needling and maximize the result.

Under topical, local, or general anesthesia, the skin is closely punctured with the special tool that consists of a rolling barrel with needles at regular intervals. By rolling backward and forward with some pressure in various directions one can achieve an even distribution of the holes. The skin should be needled as densely as possible. Usually, as the needle holes get too close to each other, the needle ‘‘slips’’ into an established hole and so it seems impossible to over treat the skin. For very superficial small scars, I use a simple tattoo-artist’s gun as described by Camirand and Doucet. When using the tattooartist’s machine, one has to be very careful not to overtreat an area because the skin can then be damaged because the needles plough their way through the skin and may remove the epidermis. The needles penetrate through the epidermis but do not remove it, so the epidermis is only punctured and will rapidly heal. The needle seems to divide cells from each other rather than cutting through the cells so that many cells are spared.

Because the needles are set in a roller, the needle initially penetrates at an angle and then goes deeper as the roller turns. Finally the needle is extracted at the converse angle and therefore the tracts are curved, reflecting the path of the needle as it rolls into and then out of the skin. The epidermis and particularly the stratum corneum remain intact, except for these tiny holes, which are about four cells in diameter. The needles penetrate about 1.5 to 2 mm into the dermis. Naturally, the skin bleeds for a short time, but that soon stops. The skin develops multiple microbruises in the dermis that initiate the complex cascade of growth factors that eventually results in collagen production. After the bleeding stops, there is a serous ooze that has to be removed from the surface of the skin. Wet gauze swabs soak up most of the serous ooze. As the skin swells, the holes are closed, the edges of the epidermis are approximated, and the ooze stops. Noxious chemicals, however, may still penetrate the skin, so only safe molecules should be used topically. After this serous leak has stopped, the skin is washed thoroughly and then covered with vitamin A, C, and E oil or cream (do not use ascorbic acid). The patient is warned that they will look terribly red and bruised, and they are encouraged to shower within a few hours of the procedure, when they return home.

Why percutaneous collagen induction works

PCI results from the natural response to wounding of the skin, even though the wound is minute and mainly subcutaneous. A single needle prick through the skin would cause an invisible response. It is necessary to understand that when the needle penetrates into the skin, this injury, minute as it might seem, causes some localized damage and bleeding by rupturing fine blood vessels. Platelets are automatically released and the normal process of inflammation
commences, even though the wound is miniscule. A completely different picture emerges when thousands or tens of thousands of fine pricks are placed close to each other and one gets a field effect, because the bleeding is virtually confluent.

This promotes the normal post-traumatic release of growth factors and infiltration of fibroblasts. This reaction is automatic and produces a surge of activity that inevitably leads to the fibroblasts being ‘‘instructed’’ to produce more collagen and elastin. The collagen is laid down in the upper dermis just below the basal layer of the epidermis. It now becomes important to understand the process of inflammation in detail. An excellent reference on this topic is the chapter ‘‘Wound Healing’’ by Falabela and Falanga in The Biology of the Skin. There are three phases in wound healing:

Phase I: inflammation, which starts immediately after the injury

Phase II: proliferation (tissue formation), which starts after about 5 days and lasts about 8 weeks

Phase III: tissue remodeling, from 8 weeks to about 1 year

Phase I: initial injury
The inflammation phase starts when the needles prick the skin and rupture blood vessels and blood cells and serum gets into the surrounding tissue. Platelets are important in causing clotting and releasing chemotactic factors, which cause an invasion of other platelets, leucocytes, and fibroblasts. The leucocytes, particularly neutrophils, then act on the damaged tissue to remove debris and kill bacteria. After the platelets have been activated by exposure to thrombin and collagen, they release numerous cytokines. This process involves a complex concatenation of numerous factors that are important in (1) controlling the formation of a clot (eg, fibrinogen, fibronectin, von Willebrand factor, thrombospondin, ADP, and thromboxane); (2) increasing vascular permeability, which then allows the neutrophils to pass through the vessel walls and enter the damaged area; (3) attracting neutrophils and monocytes; and (4) recruiting fibroblasts into the wounded area.

Of special interest in understanding the action of PCI are the following:

1. Fibroblast growth factor: promotes not only fibroblast proliferation but also epidermal proliferation and stimulates the production of new blood vessels. Vitamin A is an essential regulator of differentiation of fibroblasts and keratinocytes so adequate doses in the tissues are required at this stage. In anticipation of the interrupted blood supply, it should be ensured that the highest-possible normal levels of vitamin A are stored in the skin before PCI.

2. Platelet-derived growth factor: chemotactic for fibroblasts and promotes their proliferation, meaning that more collagen and elastin will be made. The need for vitamin C at this stage becomes crucial because without adequate
levels of this vitamin, proline and lysine cannot be incorporated into collagen and the strands will then be defective.

3. Transforming growth factor a (TGF-a): facilitates re-epithelialization. In the case of PCI, re-epithelialization is not an important action.

4. Transforming growth factor b (TGF-b): a powerful chemotactic agent for fibroblasts that migrate into the wound about 48 hours after injury and start producing collagen types I and III, elastin, glycoseaminoglycans, and proteoglycans. Collagen type III is the dominant form of collagen in the early wound-healing phase. Again, this action is heavily dependent on adequate doses of vitamin C. At the same time, TGF-b inhibits proteases that break down the intercellular matrix.

5. Connective tissue activating peptide III: also promotes the production of intercellular matrix. Fibroblasts migrate into the area, and this surge of activity inevitably leads to the production of more collagen and more elastin. Vitamin A and C again are important mediators of this action.

6. Neutrophil activating peptide-2: has a chemotactic effect for neutrophils that then migrate into the wounded area. Neutrophils are important for killing bacteria and helping to debride tissue but, in the case of PCI, their main action is the release of cytokines that enhance the effects of the platelet cytokines (eg, plateletderived growth factor and connective tissue growth factor).

Phase II: the period for tissue proliferation
As time passes, probably about 5 days in the case of PCI, neutrophils are replaced by monocytes. The monocytes differentiate into macrophages and phagocytose the decaying neutrophils. They are very important for the later healing phases because they remove cellular debris and release several growth factors including platelet-derived growth factor, fibroblast growth factor, TGF-b, and TGF-a, which stimulate the migration and proliferation of fibroblasts and the production and modulation of extracellular matrix.

With PCI, there is only extravasated blood and very little connective tissue damage to be dealt with. Bacterial infection is rare, but it has been noticed that when the needled area gets infected, greater smoothing of skin may occur, probably due to a heightened growth factor response. In standard wounds, the inflammatory phase ends after about 5 to 6 days, as proliferation and tissue formation ensue. In these cases, the main cell is the keratinocyte. Keratinocytes change in morphology and become mobile to cover the gap in the basement membrane. The changes include retraction of tonofilaments and the dissolution of desmosomes and hemidesmosomes so that the cells can migrate. Peripheral cytoplasmic actin filaments also are developed that ‘‘pull’’ keratinocytes together to close the wound. These actin filaments, however, are not an important factor in PCI because re-epithelialization, or the closure of the needle holes, occurs within a few hours after needling because the gap is so small.

Disruption of the basement membrane by PCI destroys the lamina lucida and brings basal keratinocytes into direct contact with the underlying collagen, which inactivates laminin and stimulates keratinocyte migration. When the keratinocytes have joined together, they start producing all the components to re-establish the basement membrane with laminin and collagen types IVand VII. A day or two after PCI, the keratinocytes start proliferating and act more in thickening the epidermis than in closing the defect.

Initially after PCI, the disruption of the blood vessels causes a moderate amount of hypoxia. The low oxygen tension stimulates the fibroblast to produce more TGF-b, platelet-derived growth factor, and endothelial growth factor. Procollagen mRNA also is upregulated, but this cannot cause collagen formation because oxygen is required (which only occurs when re-vascularization occurs). Collagen type III is the dominant form of collagen in the early wound-healing phase and becomes maximal 5 to 7 days after injury. The longer the initial phase, the greater the production of collagen type III. If the injury extends deeper than the adnexal structures, then myofibroblasts may contract the wound considerably. Although the injury in skin needling extends deeper than the adnexal structures, because the epithelial wounds are simply cleft, myofibroblast wound contraction may not play a part in the healing.

A number of proteins and enzymes are important for fibroplasia and angiogenesis that develop at the same time. Anoxia, TGF-b, and fibroblast growth factor and other growth factors play an important part in angiogenesis. Fibroblasts release insulinlike growth factor that is an important stimulant for proliferation of fibroblasts themselves and endothelial cells. Insulinlike growth factor is essential in neovascularisation. Insulinlike growth factor or somatomedin-C also is one of the main active agents for growth hormone. Integrins facilitate the interaction of the fibroblasts, endothelial cells, and keratinocytes.

Phase III – the process of tissue remodeling
Tissue remodeling continues for months after the injury and is mainly done by the fibroblasts. By the fifth day after injury, the fibronectin matrix is laid down along the axis in which fibroblasts are aligned and in which collagen will be laid down. TGF-b and other growth factors play an important part in the formation of this matrix. Collagen type III is laid down in the upper dermis just below the basal layer of the epidermis. Collagen type III is gradually replaced by collagen type I over a period of a year or more, which gives increased tensile strength. The matrix metalloproteinases (MMPs) are essential for the conversion process. The various MMPs are generally classed as MMP-1 (collagenases), MMP-2 (gelatinases), and MMP-3 (stromelysins).

Care of the skin after percutaneous collagen Induction

Immediately after the treatment, the skin looks bruised, but bleeding is minimal and there is only a small ooze of serum that soon stops. The author recommends soaking the skin with saline swabs for an hour or two and then cleaning the skin thoroughly with a Tea Tree Oil–based cleanser. The patient is encouraged to use topical vitamin A and vitamin C as a cream or an oil to promote better healing and greater production of collagen. The addition of peptides like palmitoyl pentapeptide could possibly ensure even better results. At home, the patient should stand under a shower for a long time, allowing the water to soak into the surface of the skin. Bathing is discouraged because of potential contamination from drains and plugs.

Patients should be reminded to use only tepid water because the skin will be more sensitive to heat. While the water is running over the face or body, the patient should gently massage the treated skin until all serum, blood, or oil is removed. The importance of a thorough but gentle washing of the skin, a few hours after the procedure, cannot be stressed enough. The skin will feel tight and may look uncomfortable in a few cases. Most patients say that the skin is a little sensitive but the major complaint is about the bruising and swelling. The following day, the skin looks less dramatic and by day 4 or 5, the skin has returned to a moderate pink flush, which can easily be concealed with makeup.

Men usually seem to heal faster and are less bruised than women. From day 3 or 4 onward, iontophoresis and low-frequency sonophoresis of vitamin A and C could maximize the induction of healthy collagen. Iontophoresis also tends to reduce the swelling of the skin, which also helps the patient look better sooner. Low-frequency sonophoresis can be used alone without iontophoresis to enhance penetration of palmitoyl pentapeptide or other peptides (eg, palmitoyl hexapeptide, copper peptides, and so forth), which also may increase the creation of healthy collagen and elastin.

After the skin has been needled, it becomes easier to penetrate, and much higher doses of vitamin A become available in the depth of the skin. Higher doses of vitamin A may cause a retinoid reaction even though the milder forms of Vitamin A (eg, retinyl palmitate) are being used. This reaction will aggravate the pink flush of the skin and also cause dry, flaky skin. Needling may cause some slight roughness of the skin surface for a few days, and this condition is definitely worse when topical vitamin A is used. The clinician should ignore this and urge the patient to continue using the topical vitamin A. Patients usually anticipate that their skin will get red and do not complain much about that but become concerned about the dryness. It should be remembered that the skin has lost the important barrier function of keeping the water inside the skin. Until this barrier function is restored completely after a few days, the skin will feel dry. A hydrating cream or even petrolatum can be used to soothe the dry sensation.

When the patient has not cleaned the skin thoroughly, a fine scab may form on the surface. The formation of scabs should be discouraged because they may cause obstruction and the development of simple milia or tiny pustules. Milia are uncommon but when they occur, they should be treated by pricking and draining. Tiny pustules are more common and usually found in patients treated for acne scars. It is important to open them early and make sure that the skin has been cleaned thoroughly and that there is no serous residue on the surface. When the pustules are allowed to dry on the skin, they will form thin scabs that effectively prevent the penetration of the vitamins necessary for a successful treatment.

The patient should avoid direct sun exposure for at least 10 days if possible and use a broad-brimmed hat or scarf to protect the facial skin. Patients may shocked when they look in the mirror, but this procedure is a far less shocking experience than laser resurfacing. The treatment can be repeated a month later, but the best interval between treatments is presently unknown. If a clinician intends to achieve a smoothing comparable to a laser resurfacing, then depending on the original state, a patient may require three or even four treatments. The results that are achieved are not temporary but endure for many years. Again, it should be emphasized that this progress is utterly dependent on adequate nutrition for the skin.

free skin care · Mon Apr 21, 2008 7:52 am

I guess I am just not pushing them in hard enough, as I don't have the ooze. I need to quit being a baby and go for it.
Thanks for that great info Scally.

free skin care · Mon Apr 21, 2008 7:59 am

Leaf & Rusher should come out with their new Dermaroller with a few weeks. I am so anxious to try this technique on my skin. Does that surprise you? Laughing

I am waiting for the LR and hoping EDS will carry it. Plus, I am afraid of long needles. The L&R most likely is for beginners like me.

free skin care · Mon Apr 21, 2008 8:07 am

Hi, Everyone, I rolled for the third time last night. I was fairly aggressive. It took me about 20 minutes to roll my face, neck, chest, and hands. Immediately after, I applied Coenzyme Q10. Last week, I applied retin-a and I was COOKED! Honestly, I was R E D for 5 days! So, I didn't want to do that this time. This morning I am red but not overly so.
Thank you to all who share your info and experiences.

free skin care · Mon Apr 21, 2008 8:30 am

Could any or all post your before product you put on your face and the after product you put on your skin.
Also, would you be so kind as to list what you use on your face(skin) on non rolling days.

If you use Retin A. When do you put it on and what do you use after that?

Thanks so much.

free skin care · Mon Apr 21, 2008 8:51 am

Scalawaggirl, as always you are a mine of information, and I always value your input. I have rolled my face for around 10/15 minutes a time. I use enough pressure to feel the pain but I rarely bleed and definitely don't ooze! Although my face swells, I don't bruise either. Am I not being aggressive enough? Also, I'm now confused about what to apply after. Sometimes I use retin-a, and sometimes vit c, but never both together. I must admit all the technical stuff goes over my head, could you please simplify the protocol for me, as I have never washed my face afterwards, I usually roll before bedtime, so now I'm wondering if I've doing it all wrong, or have I misunderstood?

free skin care · Mon Apr 21, 2008 8:53 am

Last night I rolled.. It took me 30 minutes to roll my face neck and hands. My hands look like I have some kind of rash on them.

Before I rolled I put on matrixyl 3000. After I rolled I put on the same. I waited a while and put on a moisurizer with vit e and c. I get so confused as to what to put on after. I was using CP Emu oil and HA.

Now I am using this matrixyl 3000 and am not sure what to use after that.
Should I use Retin A stuff?

I will say. I would not want to do a roll today. I am red and stingy.

free skin care · Mon Apr 21, 2008 10:55 am

lillilulu wrote:

Scalawaggirl, as always you are a mine of information, and I always value your input. I have rolled my face for around 10/15 minutes a time. I use enough pressure to feel the pain but I rarely bleed and definitely don't ooze! Although my face swells, I don't bruise either. Am I not being aggressive enough? Also, I'm now confused about what to apply after. Sometimes I use retin-a, and sometimes vit c, but never both together. I must admit all the technical stuff goes over my head, could you please simplify the protocol for me, as I have never washed my face afterwards, I usually roll before bedtime, so now I'm wondering if I've doing it all wrong, or have I misunderstood?

Lili, glad to help. Without some strong anesthetic, I'd doubt that most of us home-users will get to the point of oozing. It would require some major league rolling and I think the pain is enough to stop most from experiencing this. One point to note is that I do not think it is absolutely necessary to ooze, per se, you may and that's fine but if you don't, that's also fine.

My feeling is that our mini-treatments, for lack of a better description, combined will give us good results similar to if we had a major one done in a clinic. I do feel that some plan is needed, though, so that you will allow your skin to actually produce collagen with minimal interruption so do believe that a break is warranted but again, to each her own.

Regarding the Retin-A references in that document, it is recommended to kick the skin cells into turnover quickly (as well as to assist in the collagen initialization). If you use it on the night of rolling, beware that you will likely experience a much more intense peel (even if you don't normally peel) as your skin will be much more susceptible to the active (as in any other product, as well). I normally wait a day or so before using Retin-A in one of my protocol routines OR wait a full 7 days. If I wait 7 days, I use CPs for the first week and emu oil.

However, I have recently switched to Karin Herzog and so will probably use my normal routine except for the night of rolling (I am always very gentle with my skin then). CPs, I will incorporate for the 7 days and then retire them in lieu of either Retin-A or Karin Herzog, which also includes Vitamin A. I still have not tried to mix the two and am considering whether I even want to do this.

Vitamin C I do not use after rolling since the author said to NOT use ascorbic acid; however, I have not been able to ascertain why this is the case. Is it the acidity? Not sure but will let you all know once I track it down. My instinct is that some of the other Vitamin C options would be better, as have been mentioned in this thread.

Now, as to whether you should wash afterward, yes, you should - at least rinse at a minimum. You'll want to ensure that nothing remains on the skin to prevent future absorption of product but go very gently and do not use any harsh cleanser - namely ooze and blood, which could result in scabbing (even slight) that will prevent the Retin-A, Vitamin C or other collagen builders from absorbing. Now, as to a protocol/routine, this is only a suggestion and is what I do (with a bit of tweaking):

-Wash face and dry
-Apply topical analgesic, if needed (wait and remove after allotted time by rinsing)
-Roll (I do this in a star pattern: horizontal/vertical/both diagonals 10x each direction). By the time I get to the last diagonal, it's really hurting, red and swollen.
-Rinse with cool or tepid water and let it calm down
-Rinse roller very well in hot water, put into alcohol or hydrogen peroxide for 10 minutes or so.

Later, I do this:

-Wash with gentle cleanser very gently; rinse with tepid water
-Apply actives (CPs normally and then emu oil)

The next day, I pick up my normal routine but keep the actives to a minimum. Like I said, it varies as to whether I use Retin-A during the first 7 days but mostly, I wait until a week has passed.

So, for me, I generally do a roll every 2 weeks rather than 1 given the above. Retin-A is used 2-3 times during days 8-14, normally. However, like I said earlier, I will probably tweak this a bit. It's a good point to start with, though, at least for consideration.

free skin care · Mon Apr 21, 2008 11:08 am

scalawaggirl, thanks for posting your routine.
On the day/days you use retin a (or the a product such as this) what do you use along with it? Anything?

free skin care · Mon Apr 21, 2008 11:13 am

sherryf13500 wrote:

scalawaggirl, thanks for posting your routine.
On the day/days you use retin a (or the a product such as this) what do you use along with it? Anything?

Before I switched to Karin Herzog, when I used Retin-A, I would apply it to freshly washed skin, wait a minute or so and then wait for about 30 minutes (not necessary just my preference with the cream version so it absorbed completely). Then, I'd apply emu oil over spritzed skin (absorbs better for me) and that's it.

Now, that I'm using Karin Herzog, though, I think that I will test out occasional use (maybe, big maybe) of RA along w/the Karin Herzog oxygen products. However, I'm not convinced that it won't be overkill for my skin so I just might go on using the KH products (they include Vitamin A) and call it a day.

free skin care · Mon Apr 21, 2008 11:46 am

Thanks scalawaggirl:

I never know what to use after RA. I usually don't use anything. I use a cream base RA. Can't remember the name. Starts with a t.

free skin care · Mon Apr 21, 2008 2:20 pm

I have a question about the amount of topical anaesthetic used when rolling with the 1.5. While I rolled last weekend without any topical, and it was all right, I've decided I want to try for a more aggressive roll, and just don't know if I can bring myself to do it without the topical. Laughing

I'm going to get the Tridocaine, but I need to know how many tubes to get.

So, you Tridocaine ladies, how much do you use per roll? I will be anaesthetizing my decollatege, as well.

Any recommendations?

Also, does anyone know about shipping time to the States from the Canada online drugstore?

Thanks in advance for the input!

free skin care · Mon Apr 21, 2008 5:11 pm

I'm getting a little concerned with all this talk about blood and oozing. As I've said numerous times before I don't think you can compare home treatments to clinical treatments, even if you're using a 1.5mm roller. I don't believe that anyone should be rolling their skin to the extent that their skin is all bloody and oozing. I've been using a 1.5mm roller for some time now and even though I try to press quite hard, the only blood I produce is an occassional tiny spot.

free skin care · Mon Apr 21, 2008 5:59 pm

Yubs wrote:

I have a question about the amount of topical anaesthetic used when rolling with the 1.5.

So, you Tridocaine ladies, how much do you use per roll?

I think you should just follow the directions that come with the medication. I don't use Tridocaine, I use Xylocaine and it's recommended to just spread a THIN layer on the skin.

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