DermaRoller
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free skin care · Fri May 16, 2008 8:39 pm

jgurl, I don't want to be a wet blanket, and I'm certainly no expert, but IMO you're way too young to be fooling around with something as aggressive as rolling in the same way that us old ladies are! Wink

Seriously, I'm not really sure rolling could be too much help to you...at 21, your body is at the peak of its collagen generation powers, and there probably isn't too much more benefit that something like rolling could impart to your young skin. I think using high-quality actives and minding your diet and being careful not to over-expose yourself to the sun should be more than enough to delay the onset of age-related lines for a while. I WISH I could go back and take better care of myself from your age onward. You may need rolling one day, but I'm betting it's not this day.

I'm sure you probably don't find that particularly helpful, but it's my $0.02. Smile

free skin care · Fri May 16, 2008 9:00 pm

I'm inclined to agree with Yubs. However, the rolling should help with acne scarring. If you have rolled aggressively you will have tracks and a sunburnt look. This should fade in a day or so - don't stress. For the time being discontinue rolling until your skin has fully healed (at least a week). In future, perhaps you could just concentrate on the scarring.

free skin care · Fri May 16, 2008 9:42 pm

Yubs wrote:

bethany, thanks for that great link! Quoting you:

Quote:

Based on what I just posted above regarding the inflammation phases, I am planning to not use my LED for a week after a 1.5mm roll.

So you're going to extend the wait periods between your rolls now?

I am only planning on rolling once a month and alternating between the .5mm and 1.5mm (I bought both). I haven't totally decided yet...I may only use the 1.5 on my marionette lines.

Editing to add:

Here are the descriptions of the Dermarollers and what each is *supposed* to accomplish. Based on this, and the 10 or so documents I read, for my particular skin issues I am planning to use the .5mm on the majority of my face, and the 1.5mm on my marionette lines. However, this may not be appropriate for everyone...especially people with acne scars.

Quote:

The Dermaroller™ CIT-8 (CIT: Collagen Induction Therapy, Medical model) has the same characteristics with the Cosmetic types but in this case the needle length is 0.5mm (500 µm). Rolling the cylinder on the skin surface creates deeper micro-channels on the stratum corneum, through which any kind of substance we apply on the skin will gain access to even deeper and viable skin layers. On the same time, controlled, minuscule trauma is caused to the dermis, which reacts physiologically by producing collagen. The exact mechanisms of action are described later.

The Dermaroller™ MF-8 has the same characteristics with the Cosmetic types but in this case the needle length is 1.5mm (1500µm). Rolling the cylinder on the skin surface creates even deeper micro-channels on the whole epidermis and dermis. At the same time, these longer needles will destroy scar collagen bundles, atrophic stretch marks or cellulitis bundles (orange skin).

http://www.dermaroller.de/us/science/percutanous-delivery.html

free skin care · Fri May 16, 2008 11:21 pm

Yubs wrote:

Some gauge/standard measure of treatment intensity would be helpful. I wonder if Mr. Liebl would answer a question like that?

Hey Yubs - Mr. Liebl has already mentioned penetration force on his website, but it is not referenced using laymens terms, so it's easy to overlook.

Quote:

PENETRATION FORCES:
What penetration forces are required for skin needling? This is relatively easy to answer. Provided the right steel is used, the needles are not longer than 1.5 mm and the needles are arranged in a circular array, then only 3 needle rows with 8 needles each (i.e. 24 needles) will penetrate the skin at any one time. According to the formula of Mark Prausnitz for transdermal delivery, only 5 N (500 grams) are required to “roll through the skin” with such an arrangement of micro-needles.
www.dermaroller.de/us/science/abstract-reflections-3.html

If 500 grams of pressure has been studied and proven to produce the results we're all looking for, then the real question of the day is what does 500 grams of pressure feel like and how do you know how to measure this with some form of accuracy at home?

This isn't the first time I've come across the reference of 500 grams of pressure being adequate while rolling with the 1.5 mm or smaller either. In fact I've also read that pressure between 500 and 700 grams is also acceptable. There was a warning not to exceed 700 grams though.

free skin care · Fri May 16, 2008 11:43 pm

bethany wrote:

Here is something interesting I read on treatment cycles...with an answer directly from from Horst Leibl, the creater of the Dermaroller:

Quote:

Hello Mr. Liebl,

In my quest to learn more about your DermaRoller and CIT process I have read through your website and found it very informative. However, I am a little uncertain about a few issues concerning the treatment protocol with the 1.5 mm size, and hope you can share some additional details with me.

I understand that the entire process of how the Dermaroller works is based on the wound-healing cycle and that a cascade of actions is stimulated by the micro-injuries created by the DermaRoller in the dermis. I’ve read several articles that describe the three phases of wound healing (Inflammation, Proliferation, Maturation). However, I am not clear on one issue. When a new sheet of collagen is laid down just above the dermis and is populating with Collagen Type III for approximately 21 days from the onset of the “injury”, it then slowly converts from Type III to Type I. From that point on, the collagen fibers composed of Type I begin to strengthen and the greatest effects of skin remodeling take place and continue to do so for upwards of a year (or longer).

Based on this, I am wondering how it is possible to tell so early on after an initial DermaRoller treatment if you require another treatment (or more) 4 to 6 weeks later. The Maturation phase extends beyond 4 to 6 weeks and this is when the greatest results are developing and become more visable….right? Essentially how can you ’see’ results that haven’t had a chance to mature yet?
I am also wondering why just 3 treatments instead of 4 or 6, etc., should additional treatments be deemed necessary. Is the Maturation phase interrupted in some way by incorporating additional treatments with the 1.5 mm too close together? Some other ‘experts’ are claiming that the 1.5 mm size can be used several times a week for an indefinite period of time. But this just does not make ANY sense to me based on the wound-healing cascade and life cycle.

I am truly hoping that you can help me understand the reasoning behind the different Treatment Instructions for the 1.5 mm and why they should be stopped after 3 procedures during the first year of using the DermaRoller.

Thank you so much for your time and help. I look forward to hearing back from you.

Regards,
XXX

(Quote referenced from website) “According to the individual skin condition, 1 to 3 procedures, separated by 4 to 6 weeks, are sufficient to resurface the skin. As aging continues, we recommend one refresher-CIT every year. Between the CITs and after the last one, you can support the results of the CIT by using the Home Care Dermaroller in combination with high-end peptide serums.”

FYI - the Home Care Dermaroller mentioned above is .5mm.

His reply...

Quote:

Thank you very much indeed for your thoughtful mail. I have received thousands, but never such a detailed concern. Let me explain what we know so far. It is widely believed that skin reacts to needling by the wound healing cascade. But if one looks closer and goes more in cell biology than the picture suddenly changes dramatically. First we have to answer the question what is an injury? The best definition would be: The disruption of tissue integrity. Now the next question would be: Does a fine, precisely tooled, non traumatic needle cause an injury? Yes and no. Certainly cells may be damaged and capillaries may be punctured. A wound can only heal, when certain skin cells are stimulated by signals be become active. If there is a bleeding wound, naturally TGF (transmitted Growth Factors), usually transported by blood platelets, would send signals to various cells to become active, and in the end fibroblasts would transform into collagen fibers for wound closure. This we would call wound repair by fibrosis. Until this point school of thoughts is clear.

But if we have a closer look at needling that does not go further the average thickness of the dermis of about 1,5 mm, the picture changes dramatically. Although needles may puncture some capillaries, that are “emptied” by visible petechiae on the surface, their TGF amount would not be sufficient to trigger wound healing. Matter of fact, if skin cells receive injury signals transmitted by nerve cells (about 200 per square centimeter just below the basal membrane), they release also TGF. Unfortunately this is widely unknown.

We made experiments for years with MatTek and Biosciences in he USA in order to find out what causes new collagen formation in the dermis. We used cultured skin cells (without blood vessels, and therefore without TGF that derivate from platelets)) and needled it in various depths. By measuring the electrical skin resistance first we could see a significant change in electrical conductivity between intra- and extra cellular signal exchange. We clearly could harvest new collagen fibers after needling. Why they differ in amount – we do not know (yet).

Quote:

The needling interval is a good question and we do not have yet the right answer. But if one looks at the fast response to needling of acne scars, we know that an interval of about 6 weeks is sufficient.

Personally I am more on your side and I would like to see longer intervals. But at present, in so called modern times, we have a problem: people are impatient and they “want it now”. Although you should not forget, many physicians are often pushed for fast results. They actually should be the protagonists and tell people to be patient. However, why should a new cell formation influence the previous needle induced ones?

As all cases are different we only can give guidelines, but patient and physician in the end must decide. Also do not forget one point: The average knowledge of physiology. People are impatient and most of them are not interested in what happens in their body. We live in competitive times of individuals, and each one wants to be the first and best looking. This is the reason behind why we publish only fractions of medical knowledge.

Even for physicians needling and its mechanism of action is widely unknown. I just came back from a lecture and workshop and only after the lecture, they suddenly stood up and admitted that “they did not know how cell biology works”.

I hope that this answers your questions to some extent. If you have more, please do not hesitate to contact me again. Then I shall guide to to the right articles to get a closer picture.

Last but not least. To any ablative, cutting or cell damaging procedure the body will respond with its repair mechanism – fibrosis, an unformatted bundle like collagen. To micro needling (provided the right needles are used) the body responds with cell regeneration and new collagen that integrates into the existing collagen formation and its cross linked pattern. It is as simply as that.

Best regards
Horst Liebl

http://dermaroller.wordpress.com/2008/04/25/question-about-treatment-intervals/

Bethany - I'm a little confused, what do you mean when you say that "the Home Care Dermaroller mentioned above is 0.5 mm". There is no reference to the roller discussed being 0.5 mm, the questions were concerning the 1.5 mm model.

The reply from Mr. Liebl is interesting on many levels as it clearly illustrates that the professionals do not know conclusively how the rollers are able to fool the body into thinking it has a wound, nor do they have a SOLID explanation for ANY of their treatment protocols. In fact, Mr. Liebl goes on to say that the more they learn about how the dermarollers work, the more they realise that the rollers on NOT stimulating a full-fledged wound/healing cascade, but a quicker version of it. In other words, the body is responding to the rollers differently than they would to a real wound. Some steps of the wound-healing cascade are actually shorter than they would be with a typical wound, which is very interesting.

So though we like to relate the physiology behind the rollers to the wound-healing process, it is not the exact same thing. This also means that the duration of inflammation necessary isn't the same either. With a standard wound, the inflammatory period needed to stimulate the healing cascade is 1-3 days. Well this probably does not apply to the rollers since the body is moving though the various healing phases faster AND in a slightly different fashion.

I'm not saying to ignore the need for the inflammatory phase with the rollers, just that you cannot compare apples to apples between a real wound and one that the body is tricked into believing it has when you roll. I always give a good day of using nothing anti-inflammatory after I roll, but do not know if it is necessary to avoid all anti-inflammatories for three days. So for those who are using their BabyQ and AALS, etc., you are probably fine to use it within 24 hours of rolling, but I agree that using it the same night after a rolling session is not something I would do myself (as your body benefits from the inflammatory phase the most during the first 24 hours).

free skin care · Sat May 17, 2008 1:09 am

About prepping the skin with Vitamin A. I am using a mix of avocado,rosehip,seabuckthorn and helichryseum on my stretchmark area, and I've just got some Tamanu oil too, which I havent used yet. I know Rosehip is rich in Vit A...

I dont have any experience with Retinoids, and I'm wondering if I should be using something else..

What Vitamin A are you all using, if you are ?

free skin care · Sat May 17, 2008 1:16 am

For those interested, here is another site that walks you through each step of using your roller (with pictures!). They also state that a pressure of 5 N (500 grams) is to be applied when you roll and said, "If you feel unsure how much 500 grams is, try pressing a weight measure."

I just want to add that I do not go through the process of sterilizing my skin the way in which they describe, but would do so if I was rolling with a 2.0 mm model on my body.
www.cit-nordic.com/thetechnique.html

free skin care · Sat May 17, 2008 2:08 am

Another thing that some may not know or have forgotten about is that the rollers do not penetrate to the exact length of the actual needle, even when you use optimal pressure. Based on the design, each roller size has a maximum that it can penetrate the skin. For example:

Needle Length---Max Penetration
0.25 mm --------0.07 mm
0.50 mm --------0.30 mm
1.00 mm --------0.70 mm
1.50 mm --------1.30 mm

Based on this information, I cannot understand how collagen could be induced with a 0.5 mm roller since it isn't even making contact or coming close to the dermis. Other than stimulating new hair growth on the scalp and aiding in product penetration, I do not see how a roller with such short needles can possibly produce the same results that the larger models can. I mean when you think about it, why would everyone who manufactures & sells these rollers (including Mr. Liebl who I consider one of the Dermarolling pioneers), create a range of models that all differ in needle length if the 0.5 mm could do exactly the same thing. Wouldn't that make all the other models completely redundant?

free skin care · Sat May 17, 2008 2:24 am

catski wrote:

What Vitamin A are you all using, if you are ?

I'm using Retin-A 0.1%. This causes allot of peeling after rolling so sometimes I switch to 0.05%.

free skin care · Sat May 17, 2008 2:42 am

ScotsLass wrote:

Another thing that some may not know or have forgotten about is that the rollers do not penetrate to the exact length of the actual needle, even when you use optimal pressure. Based on the design, each roller size has a maximum that it can penetrate the skin. For example:

Needle Length---Max Penetration
0.25 mm --------0.07 mm
0.50 mm --------0.30 mm
1.00 mm --------0.70 mm
1.50 mm --------1.30 mm

Based on this information, I cannot understand how collagen could be induced with a 0.5 mm roller since it isn't even making contact or coming close to the dermis. Other than stimulating new hair growth on the scalp and aiding in product penetration, I do not see how a roller with such short needles can possibly produce the same results that the larger models can. I mean when you think about it, why would everyone who sells these rollers (including Mr. Liebl who I consider one of the Dermarolling pioneers), create a range of models that all differ in needle length if the 0.5 mm could do exactly the same thing. Wouldn't that make all the other models completely redundant?

Yes, that's a very good point. It's been my understanding all along that the very short needles, which are intended for everyday use, are for aiding product penetration only. And that the longer needles which reach down into the dermis are for generating collagen. However, what I find confusing is the discussion in an earlier post on what exactly constitutes an "injury". I would have thought that any wound that pierces our body's protective layer (the skin) would be known as an injury. We all know that these little injuries heal over, otherwise we'd all be walking around with a face looking like a sieve! In the process of healing all the wounds isn't the skin regenerating itself, thereby thickening itself and minimising pores? So where does the collagen come into play here, if at all? The point I'm trying to make is that even if we're not stimulating new collagen production, aren't we still encouraging the growth of new skin?

free skin care · Sat May 17, 2008 4:32 am

Absolutely! There is a current Dermaroller study taking place in Europe that will hopefully be concluded this summer that is attempting to prove that needling stimulates stem cells to proliferate. This also includes epidermal stem cells which are being stimulated by very short needles (0.2 mm)! The result of this rapid stem cell proliferation is an increase in epidermal thickness, so yes, there is no doubt that there are great benefits to using the shorter rollers, and this explains why the skin is feeling thicker and our pores are improving.

Of course this is entirely different from new collagen production which is responsible for reversing the appearance and depth of wrinkles and improving the skin's elascity and tone. This process directly involves the dermis and requires a different set of circumstances to take place. Specifically, the wound-healing cycle must be triggered first before the collagen production process can be induced.

Now the thing to remember with dermarolling is that you are not wounding or traumatizing the epidermis. This is what makes this treatment so amazing and why we can recover so quickly from it. The needles are penetrating the skin, this is true, but they are not wounding it the same way a knife cutting through it does, or an acid peel burns it, or a laser traumatizes, etc. The rollers are simply creating hundreds of micro-channels which close within 30-90 minutes of rolling.

What the needles are wounding, by means of tiny punctures, are cells and tissue on or near the dermis below the epidermis. Once they puncture the cells/tissue, in addition to breaking capillaries beneath the epidermis, a set of chemical reactions is released in the body and this triggers the wound-healing cascade to kick in. However, this isn't a real wound in the literal sense because the epidermis hasn't been compromised. This is the primary difference; a real wound would normally involve the epidermis.

Based on the response below from Dr. Horst Liebl, who is the CEO of Dermaroller.de, they are still trying to determine what really takes place once the roller penetrates beneath the epidermis. He does not classify the process as 100% adhering to the wound/healing cycle as the studies are showing decrepancies. The truth is, they don't really know with certainity what is happening to produce collagen.

As for myself, the entire reason I became engrossed with the dermaroller concept is because they can induce new collagen production without the need for any kind of invasive treatments. To me, this is HUGE as I do not know of any other process that is so *natural* and effective at keeping your skin youthful looking as you age.

At the end of the day, I'm sold for life on these babies, regardless of the scientific mechanics behind how they work! Very Happy

Quote:

It is widely believed that skin reacts to needling by the wound healing cascade. But if one looks closer and goes more in cell biology than the picture suddenly changes dramatically. First we have to answer the question what is an injury? The best definition would be: The disruption of tissue integrity. Now the next question would be: Does a fine, precisely tooled, non traumatic needle cause an injury? Yes and no. Certainly cells may be damaged and capillaries may be punctured. A wound can only heal, when certain skin cells are stimulated by signals be become active. If there is a bleeding wound, naturally TGF (transmitted Growth Factors), usually transported by blood platelets, would send signals to various cells to become active, and in the end fibroblasts would transform into collagen fibers for wound closure. This we would call wound repair by fibrosis. Until this point, the school of thought is clear.

But if we have a closer look at needling that does not go further then the average thickness of the dermis of about 1,5 mm, the picture changes dramatically. Although needles may puncture some capillaries, that are “emptied” by visible petechiae on the surface, their TGF amount would not be sufficient to trigger wound healing. Matter of fact, if skin cells receive injury signals transmitted by nerve cells (about 200 per square centimeter just below the basal membrane), they release also TGF. Unfortunately this is widely unknown.

free skin care · Sat May 17, 2008 5:35 am

If the nature of the injury is so important, I'm not entirely convinced that I am making collagen "at home", even with a 1.5mm roller. As I've said many times, there is such a huge difference between a clinical roll and a home roll and it would make sense that a clinical roll that leaves the face bloodied and bruised is injury enough to stimulate collagen.

However, I do know that my skin has thickened up considerably since I started rolling about a year ago. So, that's good enough for me!

free skin care · Sat May 17, 2008 6:26 am

As I'm new, I was hoping I could get some advice. I've read every page on this thread, and have bought 0.25mm and 1.5mm rollers from ebay.

To prepare my skin I'm going to use Retin-A at night for a month or two with the 0.25mm.

I read earlier that I shouldn't take aspirin or omega-3 oils before using the more aggressive roller (1.5mm), which I'll be using on acne scarring/open pores. Does flaxseed oil count too?

The thought of skin infection worries me, though I'm glad to read that nobody's had any problems. What should I use before and after I start the 1.5mm rolling? (I'm going to use an icepack to stop the ouchies). Laughing

Before rolling I thought Iodine would be fine, though I can't find colourless Iodine online (I'm in the UK).

Post-rolling I thought aloe vera gel and Vitamin C mix (abscorbic acid) would do. However one of the articles posted here said Abscorbic Acid is a no-no.

Will Hyaluronic Acid be the best option post-rolling?

Sorry for all the questions, I'm just a bit nervous about using the 1.5mm!

PS- I bet I'll be a sneezer!

Louise

free skin care · Sat May 17, 2008 6:51 am

Keliu wrote:

If the nature of the injury is so important, I'm not entirely convinced that I am making collagen "at home", even with a 1.5mm roller. As I've said many times, there is such a huge difference between a clinical roll and a home roll and it would make sense that a clinical roll that leaves the face bloodied and bruised is injury enough to stimulate collagen.

However, I do know that my skin has thickened up considerably since I started rolling about a year ago. So, that's good enough for me!

The only difference between a clinical roll and an at-home-roll is the person doing the rolling! That's it! LOL! In all honesty the *clinician* isn't doing anything that you cannot do on your own at home. The biggest issue people have with their at-home treatments is three-fold. First, they do not want to use a proper numbing cream (the clinics do not numb with ice!); second, they do not want to use a rolling pressure of 500 grams (CONSISTENTLY); and third, they do not want to concentrate on each area for 20 passes each with their 1.5 mm roller, as it will produce that oozy bloody look that is so feared.

When someone else is rolling your face while you are lying down and your skin is fully numb, it is much easier to receive such a treatment. But this is not to say you cannot do the same thing on your own. It may take some practice in the beginning and the need to work up to a longer treatment, but it's completely do-able, IMO.

My motto when I began rolling was that I would work up slowly to 20 passes in each direction pre section as my 6 sessions progressed. I didn't see the need to inflict all kinds of trauma on my face at once, but I did want to end up performing my version of a 'clinical' roll by the time I was ready to take a break. I am happy to say that I did make it to the finish line! Now it's a case of waiting to see what kind of results will emerge over the next few months.

Have you ever tested any area of your body that isn't as sensitive as your face (such as your arm or leg) and rolled a small area 20 times in each direction with a moderate pressure to see what will happen? This is a good way to help you see and feel what happens when you roll twice as long as you normally do. You can also get a rough idea of any down-time due to inflammation and/or swelling.

I still believe you are benefiting, collagen wise, from using the longer rollers even if you do not perform a clinical-style roll on yourself. The results may not be as dramatic, but there is probably something good happening on some level. It sounds as if you haven't achieved some of the collagen-inducing results you had hoped for. But it's nice that you are so happy with your improved skin thickness, as this cannot be 'purchased' in any medi-spa! Smile

Sat May 17, 2008 8:15 am

Yubs wrote:

jgurl, I don't want to be a wet blanket, and I'm certainly no expert, but IMO you're way too young to be fooling around with something as aggressive as rolling in the same way that us old ladies are! Wink

Seriously, I'm not really sure rolling could be too much help to you...at 21, your body is at the peak of its collagen generation powers, and there probably isn't too much more benefit that something like rolling could impart to your young skin. I think using high-quality actives and minding your diet and being careful not to over-expose yourself to the sun should be more than enough to delay the onset of age-related lines for a while. I WISH I could go back and take better care of myself from your age onward. You may need rolling one day, but I'm betting it's not this day.

I'm sure you probably don't find that particularly helpful, but it's my $0.02. Smile

See, this is why I came here! Laughing

I know, I think I'm going to ease up on the "fine line" work. One of the things that has happened to my skin, though, is that it's become very thin and dehydrated from years of aggressive acne treatments, and I was hoping the roller could help with that (if you have any advice on that front, I' d appreciate it Very Happy

).

Keliu wrote:

I'm inclined to agree with Yubs. However, the rolling should help with acne scarring. If you have rolled aggressively you will have tracks and a sunburnt look. This should fade in a day or so - don't stress. For the time being discontinue rolling until your skin has fully healed (at least a week). In future, perhaps you could just concentrate on the scarring.

I'm more than happy to stick with it just for scarring, since boy does this thing hurt more than I realized! I thought I had a high pain threshold, but wow. (Then again, I've never had kids, so what do I know? Laughing

) It really does seem to help, though. And I'm just glad to know that all the little holes and track marks are going to go away. I mean, I'm trying to *fix* my skin here, after all! Thanks again for all your advice, I really appreciate it!

free skin care · Sat May 17, 2008 9:48 am

Do any of you ladies have any thoughts on using the dermawand, say, the morning after a roll?

free skin care · Sat May 17, 2008 9:59 am

ScotsLass wrote:

bethany wrote:

Quote:

(Quote referenced from website) “ According to the individual skin condition, 1 to 3 procedures, separated by 4 to 6 weeks, are sufficient to resurface the skin. As aging continues, we recommend one refresher-CIT every year. Between the CITs and after the last one, you can support the results of the CIT by using the Home Care Dermaroller in combination with high-end peptide serums.”

FYI - the Home Care Dermaroller mentioned above is .5mm.

Bethany - I'm a little confused, what do you mean when you say that "the Home Care Dermaroller mentioned above is 0.5 mm". There is no reference to the roller discussed being 0.5 mm, the questions were concerning the 1.5 mm model.

The Home Care Roller was mentioned in the line directly above my FYI (I included the quote above)...he said that you should use The Home Care roller (.5mm) between the 1-3 longer needle treatments, and then during the year until you get a refresher CIT.

free skin care · Sat May 17, 2008 10:20 am

ScotsLass wrote:

I mean when you think about it, why would everyone who manufactures & sells these rollers (including Mr. Liebl who I consider one of the Dermarolling pioneers), create a range of models that all differ in needle length if the 0.5 mm could do exactly the same thing. Wouldn't that make all the other models completely redundant?

Longer needles are definitely required to breakup the scar tissue and collagen bundles associated with acne scarring, etc. as noted below:

Quote:

The Dermaroller™ CIT-8 (CIT: Collagen Induction Therapy, Medical model) has the same characteristics with the Cosmetic types but in this case the needle length is 0.5mm (500 µm). Rolling the cylinder on the skin surface creates deeper micro-channels on the stratum corneum, through which any kind of substance we apply on the skin will gain access to even deeper and viable skin layers. On the same time, controlled, minuscule trauma is caused to the dermis, which reacts physiologically by producing collagen. The exact mechanisms of action are described later.

The Dermaroller™ MF-8 has the same characteristics with the Cosmetic types but in this case the needle length is 1.5mm (1500µm). Rolling the cylinder on the skin surface creates even deeper micro-channels on the whole epidermis and dermis. At the same time, these longer needles will destroy scar collagen bundles, atrophic stretch marks or cellulitis bundles (orange skin).

http://www.dermaroller.de/us/science/percutanous-delivery.html

free skin care · Sat May 17, 2008 10:51 am

bethany wrote:

ScotsLass wrote:

bethany wrote:

Quote:

(Quote referenced from website) “ According to the individual skin condition, 1 to 3 procedures, separated by 4 to 6 weeks, are sufficient to resurface the skin. As aging continues, we recommend one refresher-CIT every year. Between the CITs and after the last one, you can support the results of the CIT by using the Home Care Dermaroller in combination with high-end peptide serums.”

FYI - the Home Care Dermaroller mentioned above is .5mm.

Bethany - I'm a little confused, what do you mean when you say that "the Home Care Dermaroller mentioned above is 0.5 mm". There is no reference to the roller discussed being 0.5 mm, the questions were concerning the 1.5 mm model.

The Home Care Roller was mentioned in the line directly above my FYI (I included the quote above)...he said that you should use The Home Care roller (.5mm) between the 1-3 longer needle treatments, and then during the year until you get a refresher CIT.

CORRECTION!!!

The Home Care Derma Roller is actually only .15mm. Embarassed

They consider the .5mm to be medical grade, and they recommend the .15mm between the medical treatments.

Quote:

IMPORTANT TO KNOW

A CIT can be performed on ALL skin areas of your body. Unlike ablative procedures a CIT can be performed repeatedly.

Depending on your skin condition, and to achieve maximum possible results, we recommend an initial treatment cycle of 3 to 4 treatments. As the new collagen formation needs time to mature, we propose an interval of 6 weeks before the next CIT is commenced. As your skin continues to age an annual refresher CIT should be considered.

...

The needles of the HOME CARE DERMAROLLER are too short (0.15 mm) to induce collagen in deeper skin layers. They only support the regeneration of epidermal cells.

http://www.dermaroller.de/us/collagen-inductiontherapy/collagen-induction-therapy-5.html

free skin care · Sat May 17, 2008 2:23 pm

bethany wrote:

ScotsLass wrote:

I mean when you think about it, why would everyone who manufactures & sells these rollers (including Mr. Liebl who I consider one of the Dermarolling pioneers), create a range of models that all differ in needle length if the 0.5 mm could do exactly the same thing. Wouldn't that make all the other models completely redundant?

Longer needles are definitely required to breakup the scar tissue and collagen bundles associated with acne scarring, etc. as noted below:

Quote:

The Dermaroller™ CIT-8 (CIT: Collagen Induction Therapy, Medical model) has the same characteristics with the Cosmetic types but in this case the needle length is 0.5mm (500 µm). Rolling the cylinder on the skin surface creates deeper micro-channels on the stratum corneum, through which any kind of substance we apply on the skin will gain access to even deeper and viable skin layers. On the same time, controlled, minuscule trauma is caused to the dermis, which reacts physiologically by producing collagen. The exact mechanisms of action are described later.

The Dermaroller™ MF-8 has the same characteristics with the Cosmetic types but in this case the needle length is 1.5mm (1500µm). Rolling the cylinder on the skin surface creates even deeper micro-channels on the whole epidermis and dermis. At the same time, these longer needles will destroy scar collagen bundles, atrophic stretch marks or cellulitis bundles (orange skin).

http://www.dermaroller.de/us/science/percutanous-delivery.html

Sorry, my comments were more rhetorical, and not a request for info. I am well aware of all the difference uses for each needle length but wasn't sure that you were since I *thought* you were suggesting collagen production (to repair deep wrinkles and sagging skin) could be induced with the 0.5 mm size. From everything I know and all the people I've talked to, this isn't possible. There will be skin improvements with the 0.5 mm length, but not the dramatic results you see with the 1.0 mm and 1.5 mm sizes.

free skin care · Sat May 17, 2008 3:02 pm

bethany wrote:

ScotsLass wrote:

bethany wrote:

Quote:

(Quote referenced from website) “ According to the individual skin condition, 1 to 3 procedures, separated by 4 to 6 weeks, are sufficient to resurface the skin. As aging continues, we recommend one refresher-CIT every year. Between the CITs and after the last one, you can support the results of the CIT by using the Home Care Dermaroller in combination with high-end peptide serums.”

FYI - the Home Care Dermaroller mentioned above is .5mm.

Bethany - I'm a little confused, what do you mean when you say that "the Home Care Dermaroller mentioned above is 0.5 mm". There is no reference to the roller discussed being 0.5 mm, the questions were concerning the 1.5 mm model.

The Home Care Roller was mentioned in the line directly above my FYI (I included the quote above)...he said that you should use The Home Care roller (.5mm) between the 1-3 longer needle treatments, and then during the year until you get a refresher CIT.

Okay, I understand now, I thought everyone had tuned in to the notion that "Dermaroller" and all of their competitors advise that you use a smaller "at-home" roller between CIT treatments. That was one of the reasons I was confused about your FYI and the need to call attention to the Home Care Roller (the other confusion was the 0.5 mm size that you quoted and have since corrected). As Dr. Liebl states himself, the small Home Roller does nothing more than stimulate epidermal cells and helps with product penetration of serums, etc. It doesn't address collagen production.

What I found really interesting in the response by Dr. Liebl to the poster, who is inquring about collagen production and protocols, is that he doesn't provide ANY scientific or physiological explanation of HOW they came up with their own 1 to 3 CIT treatment protocol using the 1.5 mm roller. He mentions the acne results and how they are visible within 6 weeks of a CIT roll, but the poster wasn't asking about acne or scarring. The person was specifically addressing collagen production and the Maturation phase that does not reveal complete results for many, many weeks and asked why 1 to 3 sessions were suggested, instead of 4 or 6. At no time does he say, "we devised the 1 to 3 treatment protocol based on A, B and C." Instead he skirts over the real question and, IMO, provides a non-response. Which is a real shame as it would have been wonderful if a professional in the field would give concrete reasons for why the treatment sessions are spaced out the way they are.

free skin care · Sat May 17, 2008 3:24 pm

ScotsLass wrote:

Have you ever tested any area of your body that isn't as sensitive as your face (such as your arm or leg) and rolled a small area 20 times in each direction with a moderate pressure to see what will happen? This is a good way to help you see and feel what happens when you roll twice as long as you normally do. You can also get a rough idea of any down-time due to inflammation and/or swelling.

I have done this level of rolling on my abdominal stretchmarks. The whole area that was rolled got very red - like strawberry jam - for at least 4/5 days, and it was swollen. It basically looked absolutely awful.There was bruising too.
The upside is that the process resulted in huge improvement on the area, which is/was one of very damaged skin.

free skin care · Sat May 17, 2008 3:25 pm

Keliu wrote:

catski wrote:

What Vitamin A are you all using, if you are ?

I'm using Retin-A 0.1%. This causes allot of peeling after rolling so sometimes I switch to 0.05%.

Thanks Keliu.

free skin care · Sat May 17, 2008 4:28 pm

catski wrote:

ScotsLass wrote:

Have you ever tested any area of your body that isn't as sensitive as your face (such as your arm or leg) and rolled a small area 20 times in each direction with a moderate pressure to see what will happen? This is a good way to help you see and feel what happens when you roll twice as long as you normally do. You can also get a rough idea of any down-time due to inflammation and/or swelling.

I have done this level of rolling on my abdominal stretchmarks. The whole area that was rolled got very red - like strawberry jam - for at least 4/5 days, and it was swollen. It basically looked absolutely awful.There was bruising too.
The upside is that the process resulted in huge improvement on the area, which is/was one of very damaged skin.

Catski - Did you continue with any rolling treatments on your abs after your *intensive* session, or did you stop entirely after you noticed such huge improvements?

Scar tissue that is a result of stretchmarks is actually located on the dermis, where it is *born* so to speak, so the only way to properly break it down is by puncturing it with the 1.5 mm needles. I am so happy to hear that you have had such great success targeting this issue!!!

free skin care · Sat May 17, 2008 5:04 pm

ScotsLass wrote:

What I found really interesting in the response by Dr. Liebl to the poster, who is inquring about collagen production and protocols, is that he doesn't provide ANY scientific or physiological explanation of HOW they came up with their own 1 to 3 CIT treatment protocol using the 1.5 mm roller. He mentions the acne results and how they are visible within 6 weeks of a CIT roll, but the poster wasn't asking about acne or scarring. The person was specifically addressing collagen production and the Maturation phase that does not reveal complete results for many, many weeks and asked why 1 to 3 sessions were suggested, instead of 4 or 6. At no time does he say, "we devised the 1 to 3 treatment protocol based on A, B and C." Instead he skirts over the real question and, IMO, provides a non-response. Which is a real shame as it would have been wonderful if a professional in the field would give concrete reasons for why the treatment sessions are spaced out the way they are.

Agreed...hopefully we will see some recommendations come out as this becomes more popular.

At this point, I am also contemplating looking into a "professional roll" done by someone there than ME! But I think I will do my first roll myself, and then go from there.

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