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Lowbrowscientist
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Fri Jul 11, 2008 6:51 pm      Reply with quote
bethany wrote:
I just wanted to say thanks to Tigerlilly for bringing to my attention that I am being paranoid.


Hey, *I* don't think you're being paranoid! Wink

And I'm totally interested in reading what you dig up. Maybe you can post new information in the "research" thread, with the other articles about microneedling?
Lowbrowscientist
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Fri Jul 11, 2008 6:58 pm      Reply with quote
Tigerlilly wrote:
I just think they merit discussion is all!


You know, if rolling brings us the results I'm hoping it will, then we're way ahead of the game and these debates will going on months from now on other forums.

Is it just me or do EDS forum members seem to get wind of things before they hit mainstream? I feel like I get to be part of history in the making : ) lol (Yes, I am aware of the irony here considering that this thread was started in... what, 2004? around there?)
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Fri Jul 11, 2008 6:58 pm      Reply with quote
Thank you so much Bethany for all your hard work.
Sometimes, we forget to thank those who give of themselves and ask nothing in return.




ps. maybe its just me....but I know I could not have gathered so much information.
Keliu
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Fri Jul 11, 2008 7:08 pm      Reply with quote
Yes, keep posting the articles Bethany - they are all of interest, even though some of us might not necessarily agree with them. I tend to agree with Tigerlilly that it's not particularly helpful to compare rolling with chemical peels. The quotes from the article concerned seemed to be making the correlation between peels and skin cancers. Unlike AHAs, rolling does not make the skin more susceptible to sun damage and as for Retin-A, this is what the inventor of that has to say, Albert M. Kligman, MD, PhD VOL 102 / NO 2 / AUGUST 1997 / POSTGRADUATE MEDICINE:

Misconceptions about safety and sensitization.
Safety is not a big issue with tretinoin. After decades of use, not a single instance of irreversible side effects, such as scarring, congenital malformations, or systemic abnormalities, has been recorded.

A common misconception is that tretinoin is a photosensitizer. Although initially the face does become somewhat more susceptible to sunburn, this effect normalizes after the drug has been applied for a couple of months.


As for inflammation being a problem - I have to admit to being a little confused on this one. Some have said that inflammation is needed for the re-building of collagen and, therefore, not to use an anti-inflammatory directly after rolling. I've always chosen to apply emu oil after rolling because it's supposed to promote collagen growth (it's done wonders for my nails). So whilst the micro-channels are open, I figured it was a good way to get the emu oil deeper into the skin and the fact that it calmed the skin down - I took to be a benefit. So now we're back to being worried about the harm of inflammation - maybe the emu oil is a good thing. See how confused I am Rolling Eyes In addition, my vote is still out on the .5 roller being considered an aggressive roller. I get absolutely no reaction from it at all.

Finally, I don't think it's a good idea to get offended over differing opinions. It's very difficult to have a good discussion when it's not a face-to-face situation. The written word can be misconstrued very easily. So Bethany, keep the articles coming and we will all continuing arguing about them! Very Happy
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Fri Jul 11, 2008 8:03 pm      Reply with quote
Hi Keliu,

I'm impressed by the good results you've had with the emu oil on your nails. I actually have some in my fridge and haven't been using it much, but I might try it. My hands/nails have been taking a beating lately, so hopefully I'll get some similar benefits.

Keliu wrote:


As for inflammation being a problem - I have to admit to being a little confused on this one. Some have said that inflammation is needed for the re-building of collagen and, therefore, not to use an anti-inflammatory directly after rolling.

I interpret this as, temporary inflammation due to the needle penetration is a necessary evil, as it's part of the healing process which stimulates the collagen (etc). I think the real problem is long term inflammation, which is why it would make sense to allow sufficient time betweeen rolls. I have had intermittent bouts with rosacea for about 7 months now, and I read the same thing (i.e., chronic inflammation being one of direct causes of skin aging) while researching that subject too. I didn't connect the dots when I first started reading about rolling, though.

Keliu wrote:
I've always chosen to apply emu oil after rolling because it's supposed to promote collagen growth (it's done wonders for my nails).

So, maybe the emu oil is still ok to use after rolling because of its own collagen inducing properties, despite the anti-inflammatory properties? That would be great, if that were the case. Have you had good results from your rolling? (I'm sorry if you've already mentioned this elswhere in the thread.. I've read it, but can't remember who said what Embarassed )
Keliu wrote:
It's very difficult to have a good discussion when it's not a face-to-face situation. The written word can be misconstrued very easily. So Bethany, keep the articles coming and we will all continuing arguing about them! Very Happy

I spend a good bit of time reading a religion and politics forum, and I must say, it's refreshing to read a lively discussion about something else, for a change : )
Keliu
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Fri Jul 11, 2008 8:32 pm      Reply with quote
I've been rolling for about 12 months and have seen excellent results. My skin is smoother and thicker and, in general, healthier looking. As for the emu oil - I think I'll continue to use it after rolling. I've said this a number of times on the Forum (so forgive me for repeating myself) but since I started rubbing emu oil into my nails they have become so strong. So, I just assume that it will do the same for my skin.

BTW the ELS Serum from Skinactives looks very good - (I use Let's Make Collagen Serum I love all their products), I'd be inclined to slap that on directly after rolling too - but that's just me.
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Sat Jul 12, 2008 7:21 am      Reply with quote
bethany wrote:
As I said when I first posted this article, I never expected everyone to agree with me.

And I am ALL for discussion, but stating that I am creating paranoia is NOT neutral "discussion." And I don't want people to shut up and take things ANYONE says at face value...discussions are how we all learn.

But that's ok....I'll just chalk it up to a lesson learned, and we can all move on. Very Happy

********************************************

I'm sorry. You are right. It was a bad choice of words. It came out all wrong. I apologize.
I think you and everyone who commented on concerns about inflammation are right upon reflection. What I meant to point out is that while we should all be aware of what we are doing to our skin, most of us are not creating chronic inflammation, so we are probably not doing harm in the long run (although certainly there are no guarantees). Therefore, if we are not creating chronic inflammation, if we are making smart skin care choices and taking good care of ourselves, etc., I don't think it's something to be *overly* concerned about, but it's definitely something to keep in mind and stay informed about.
I'm glad you posted the article because even though my initial reaction to it was somewhat negative (and my bad choice of words and careless manner of writing made it seem much more negative than I even originally intended Embarassed ), upon reflection, it's a very important piece of information to take into consideration! So thank you for posting it, and again, I apologize for what I said earlier. You are providing important information NOT creating paranoia!
bethany
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Sat Jul 12, 2008 11:56 am      Reply with quote
Tigerlilly, don't worry about it...my raging PMS got the best of me last night. Smile

My goal of sharing articles is simply to help educate people since there are so many different views out there on how to tackle rolling.

Unfortunately, many of the routines are "self-approved" with a "more frequent/longer is better" approach, and that can damage your skin if you are not careful. I remember someone who was rolling at least 3x a week with a 1.5mm roller...that is the intended audience for the information I am sharing.

I just read a book called "The Beautiful Skin Workout" and she summarized a group called "The Overenthusiastic"...she specifically mentioned that they often create setbacks on their routes to beautiful skin because they go overboard, thinking more is better.

That said, my main takeaway from the article above was:

To optimize the collagen production aspects of inflammation AND to minimize the negative aspects of chronic inflammation, one should:- Roll no more frequently than every 2 weeks
- Repair the skin barrier with the appropriate components.

That's it...nothing more. Smile However, the AHA usage implications they mentioned were also a little scary...I'm not so worried about the Retin-A mention because there is so much great research behind it and its benefits. I am actually planning to increase my Retin-A since it is so great!

But I am off my soap box now...I have shared every bit of info I have found here and on the CIT/Dermarolling Articles thread. People can read it, make their own conclusions, and do whatever they think is best for them. Smile

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Sat Jul 12, 2008 12:07 pm      Reply with quote
Keliu wrote:
I've been rolling for about 12 months and have seen excellent results. My skin is smoother and thicker and, in general, healthier looking. As for the emu oil - I think I'll continue to use it after rolling. I've said this a number of times on the Forum (so forgive me for repeating myself) but since I started rubbing emu oil into my nails they have become so strong. So, I just assume that it will do the same for my skin.

BTW the ELS Serum from Skinactives looks very good - (I use Let's Make Collagen Serum I love all their products), I'd be inclined to slap that on directly after rolling too - but that's just me.


Keliu, have you noticed any tightening of the skin? I don't know if you had any sagging issues before, but I'm curious to know if rolling helps it, even if just a little.

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Sat Jul 12, 2008 2:00 pm      Reply with quote
ive read all the postings on this board - but i cant retain all the info - so sorry if this was just stated....

is hyaluronic acid NOT ok to roll with? I was going to buy some - but may not now if this is the case...

OR is it ok to use another night when not rolling with a 2.0

thanks!!
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Sat Jul 12, 2008 8:20 pm      Reply with quote
Hi Tigerlilly- I remember you from the HSN board.

I think the book Bethany read with the label of "overenthusiastic" has my name in this group. Was my name mentioned Bethany lol?

Everyone's skin is different. We forget that. Also peoples skin changes daily. When you wake up in the morning you know the weather and then decide what clothes to wear (except if you live in LA like I do lol.

Having combination skin, I certainly know my skin is different daily. Everyday I feel, look at my skin and decide what nourishment/treatment it needs. Different days, different needs. Stopping hormones, has caused a whole new "wrinkle" in the mix.

For everyone deep rolling, please be careful. I never did but after starting to roll with a .5 mm, I developed broken capillaries on the side of my nose. My upper lip was a complete disaster and my neck, well let's just say thank goodness for turtlenecks.

I am still rolling but only with my L & R .15 mm.

We are all after the same thing......great skin and each of us must find the answer for ourselves.

On one of the beauty board vendor sites, I use to be a chief contributor for a very long time. There was only one person who I really think had "my skin". Many wanted my recipe because it did work, but one size does not fit all.

Just be careful my friends with all the rolling and remember internal nourishments with food, vitamins and supplements do help with the largest organ of our body, our skin.
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Sun Jul 13, 2008 6:12 am      Reply with quote
anomaly wrote:
Keliu, have you noticed any tightening of the skin? I don't know if you had any sagging issues before, but I'm curious to know if rolling helps it, even if just a little.


Sagging is my main bug-bear at the moment. Rolling has definitely helped with the overall appearance of my skin but I don't think it has done much for my sagging jowls. To be perfectly honest, I don't think any cream or tool can snap back skin to where it was twenty years ago. But I live in hope and try everything (except facial exercises - I'm too lazy).

As for the "over-enthusiastic" amongst us - I know that's me. I was the culprit that was rolling three times a week with a 1.5. However, I don't regret it - I'm 58, my youthful skin days are behind me. I'm a woman on a mission - and hanging on by a thread! I can understand people with younger skin wanting to be careful and sensible but whilst I haven't altogether thrown caution to the wind - I have been pretty gung-ho in my approach. But I believe it's paying off - now about the sagging....
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Sun Jul 13, 2008 9:10 am      Reply with quote
platinumrose wrote:
For everyone deep rolling, please be careful. I never did but after starting to roll with a .5 mm, I developed broken capillaries on the side of my nose. My upper lip was a complete disaster and my neck, well let's just say thank goodness for turtlenecks.


Did your broken caps clear up at all? I thought rolling was suppose to help with broken caps but I know we all respond differently to treatments so this is good to know.
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Sun Jul 13, 2008 12:04 pm      Reply with quote
Keliu wrote:
As for the "over-enthusiastic" amongst us - I know that's me. I was the culprit that was rolling three times a week with a 1.5.


Actually, I wasn't thinking of you!

But I am disappointed to hear about the sagging not being impacted by rolling..that's the primary reason I got into this. Drat. Sad

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Sun Jul 13, 2008 2:45 pm      Reply with quote
Just an FYI for those that felt the inflammation article was not relevant to rolling, since AHAs "only" impact the surface skin:

Per Dr. Yarosh in "The New Science of Perfect Skin" (page 203):

"The key mechanism of AHAs is setting off a wound-healing response in the lower dermis, which triggers increased collagen production and has a visible antiwrinkle effect."

That is basically identical to what rolling does (plus many people peel after rolls). This means that both AHAs and rolling both generate inflammation at various levels...and inflammation needs to be controlled for optimal skin conditions.

Ok...I am now DONE posting and responding to PMs on this topic. Everyone now has more than enough info to make their own decision. Very Happy

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Sun Jul 13, 2008 4:00 pm      Reply with quote
As far as sagging goes all before and after pics I've seen refer to sagging of the skin only. I can't see how it can lift sagging muscles at all. Face exercises or face lift for that.
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Sun Jul 13, 2008 6:52 pm      Reply with quote
bethany wrote:
But I am disappointed to hear about the sagging not being impacted by rolling..that's the primary reason I got into this. Drat. Sad


I do think that rolling would help in preventing sagging for those with younger skin. One would think that the constant rejuvenation of the skin would stave off a lack of elasticity - but I'm just surmising.

I also want to mention that I'm having success in treating my sebaceous hyperplasia (lots of little cysts) by rolling them with a .5 roller and applying Mario Badescu Drying Lotion. This issue is being discussed on another thread: http://www.essentialdayspa.com/forum/viewtopic.php?tid=30099

I'm not claiming that the cysts are gone (because the little buggers always come back) but my skin is the smoothest it's ever been.
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Sun Jul 13, 2008 7:15 pm      Reply with quote
Kelie, maybe if you eliminate the silicones like Arya is talking about, maybe the little buggers WILL go away!

Then your skin might look so good you would need to find a new hobby. (I am awaiting that day myself, sigh)

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Sun Jul 13, 2008 8:01 pm      Reply with quote
bethany wrote:
Kelie, maybe if you eliminate the silicones like Arya is talking about, maybe the little buggers WILL go away!

Then your skin might look so good you would need to find a new hobby. (I am awaiting that day myself, sigh)


I have eliminated silicones - I pretty much just use oils on my skin now although I have just incorporated Remergent DNA Repair into my routine.

As to finding another hobby - fat chance! This skincare business has taken over my life and my quest for the "Fountain of Youth" is never ending. Very Happy
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Sun Jul 13, 2008 8:52 pm      Reply with quote
Keliu wrote:
As to finding another hobby - fat chance! This skincare business has taken over my life and my quest for the "Fountain of Youth" is never ending. Very Happy


LOL...I can totally relate! I just finished reading all the abstracts and white papers on Remergent products tonight, and I'm sure I'll find something new for tomorrow!

I am in the wrong field, sigh. Very Happy

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Mon Jul 14, 2008 1:06 am      Reply with quote
Keliu wrote:
bethany wrote:
But I am disappointed to hear about the sagging not being impacted by rolling..that's the primary reason I got into this. Drat. Sad


I do think that rolling would help in preventing sagging for those with younger skin. One would think that the constant rejuvenation of the skin would stave off a lack of elasticity - but I'm just surmising.

I also want to mention that I'm having success in treating my sebaceous hyperplasia (lots of little cysts) by rolling them with a .5 roller and applying Mario Badescu Drying Lotion. This issue is being discussed on another thread: http://www.essentialdayspa.com/forum/viewtopic.php?tid=30099

I'm not claiming that the cysts are gone (because the little buggers always come back) but my skin is the smoothest it's ever been.


Yes I do think rolling will prevent sagging skin, just not sagging muscles like jowls, cheeks etc. The skin just can't hold the muscles up if they're dropping. That's why face lifts are done by lifting the muscles and not just the skin.
I'm so glad you're having such wonderful results with your cysts Keliu. Smile
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Mon Jul 14, 2008 6:10 am      Reply with quote
This is reminiscent of a thread I started ages ago when I was doing glycolic acid peels (which I still do every other month or so but not in the summer). Many articles have shown real skin thickening with GA peels (using skin biopsies to follow thickening). Then a number of newspapers highlighted a research article on GA peels thinning skin. There was much uproar etc. until the next rould of studies simply showed that you can overdo it. Many things are good for you up to some point (even essential) but can cause harm when over used.

The problem is that each of our skins are very different so how can you tell what is best for you? I don't think that is so hard when we are honest with ourselves. If after rolling my skin doesn't look OK the next morning then I've done too much. I take breaks but my skin always loks fine the next morning after even with long needles. That is probably not the case with everybody.

PS I'm early 50's and my neck was creepy looking before I started (approx 6 months) and that is now very much better. I think the skin is also tighter. I do not think anything can prevent jowls but I am using estradiol cream on my jowls with rolling and I hope that will slow the development of jowls.

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Mon Jul 14, 2008 9:01 am      Reply with quote
Sharky - will you please post your routine with the estradiol cream?

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Mon Jul 14, 2008 7:25 pm      Reply with quote
For all you saggers (including me) there is one product I will mention (if I have mentioned it on this thread forgive me!) but I swear by it.

It is a temporary face lift but if used regularly it becomes permanent. It is called the Avenger Masque by Elysee and can be purchased on HSN. It is quite inexpensive and I have it on autoship.

You have to mix the powder with water, apply it, lie down flat and still for 30 minutes and let the mixture firm your face. It is like no other product I have ever experienced in tightening your face. The first week it is recommended you use it three times, the second and third week twice and then once a week for maintenance.

Other than trying to get our collagen growing, a permanent face lift, this works for me for now.

Time for me to button my mouth up too.
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Mon Jul 14, 2008 9:50 pm      Reply with quote
Keliu! I'm so glad to hear you're fighting sebaceous hyperplasia with the dermaroller and winning!

I've just started a regimen of rolling every two weeks. I did a lot of stupid stuff and my face is the bumpiest now that it's ever been and bumpy all over, not just under my eyes. I hope I can get a good result, too.

A couple of years ago, before I started miy, I used ProActiv for the first time and one day I noticed my face was as smooth as a china plate. I wish I could live that day again with what I know now. I would never again put most of the miy stuff or premade skin care products on my face again.
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