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Wed Aug 13, 2008 8:13 pm  |
I love to hear about people's successes!  |
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65 Caucasion, history of acne, sagging, some wrinkling, rough texture. Using Dermawand, AALS, Microderm Machine,Copper Peptides |
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Wed Aug 13, 2008 8:19 pm |
| bethany wrote: |
| Thyckecutie wrote: |
My skin on my tummy is a lil itchy and sore. Is it supposed to be this way? And some areas I see small bumps  |
The tenderness is not uncommon. The itching is usually a sign of healing, unless it is accompanied by the histimine bumps which signify that your skin is reacting negatively (most likely to a topical).
You may need to apply the Revitol the next morning, instead of right after you roll....it just depends on how you react.  |
See...I dont know if they are bumps are holes because right when I got out the shower I rolled last night my tummy and 2nite my legs. I see the bumps while Im rolling so are they holes? Am I doing it too hard. I just did a area of my arm to test and it did the same thing. I figure its coming from the needle penetration? I also saw specks of blood only on my arm so far.... |
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Wed Aug 13, 2008 8:40 pm |
| rileygirl wrote: |
| Hurry, Bethany. I want the penetration tips! (meaning the roller kind!) |
Well, ok then!
The following study used 3 different models of dermarollers:
A) model C 8 0,13-15° - .13mm Home Care roller
B) model M 8 1,5-15° - 1.5mm regular roller
C) model M 8 1,5-30° - 1.5mm narrow roller (like the 3Line)
They tested 2 different things: Flufenamic acid formulation contained 0.5% flufenamic acid, the retinol liposomal formulation 2% retinol.
I am ONLY posting results for the Retinol test. I also added roller descriptions to the quotes below so that everyone could keep the rollers straight when reading. Ex: [1.5mm regular roller]
| Quote: |
Investigation on the efficacy of a new device for substance deposition into deeper
layers of the skin: Dermaroller
Summary
The action of different types of Dermarollers on skin penetration enhancement was investigated with a lipophilic (retinol) and a hydrophilic (flufenamic acid) model compound. The model compounds were administrated in a liposomal formulation on the surface of skin pieces, which were pre-treated with the appropriate Dermaroller. Drug penetration was investigated across human skin using a standard Franz diffusion cell. Six hours later the stratum corneum was removed layer-wise by tapestripping. Drug amount was measured in the stripped layers by HPLC. Deeper skin was cut into thin slices using a cryotome; these slices were also analyzed for model compound content. Three types of dermarollers were tested in this study. Dermaroller M8-1,5-15° [1.5mm narrow roller] showed the highest enrichment of the lipophilic compound retinol into the deeper skin layers by a factor of 40.72 (4072 % increase) compared to skin penetration without application of the dermaroller. This increase in penetration will be even higher, as the dermaroller will be usually applied in practice after application of the drug formulation, whereas in this study the formulations had to be applied due to standardization reasons after the treatment with the dermaroller. ...
All investigated dermarollers caused also an increased deposition of model compounds into the stratum corneum.
Introduction
A reversible micro-perforation of the skin which puts smallest pores in the topmost skin barrier (stratum corneum) could allow a controllable deposition of substances at reproducible applicability. The study described here examines the deposition enhancement of new skin micro-perforation devices (Dermaroller) for the two greatest classes of substances for the treatment of skin (lipophilic and hydrophilic ones). In addition, the reproducibility of the Dermaroller application was also tested. For this purpose, human skin was treated with dermarollers, the formulation containing a model compound was administrated and the deposition of the drug in the different skin layers was estimated using acknowledged methods (Franz diffusion cell, HPLC).
Retinol deposition in the skin
All the three dermarollers used in this study exerted a good penetration enhancement for retinol both in stratum corneum as well as in deeper layers of the skin as compared to control experiment for the lipophilic model drug retinol.
The effect of the micro-perforation by means of the Dermaroller M8 1,5-15° [1.5mm regular roller], were the increase of deposition into the deeper layers of the skin by 4070% is particularly impressive. Similar values have been observed for the Dermaroller M8 1,5-30°[1.5mm narrow roller]. Both dermarollers have been developed for the penetration of compound into deeper layers of the skin (Horst Liebl ETS, France, personal communication).
The effect of the different dermarollers on penetration enhancement in summary (see Fig. 4 and 5):
The dermaroller C8 0,13-15° [.13mm Home Care roller]showed 1.62 times more drug in stratum corneum and 1.48 times more drug in deeper skin as compared to control experiment for the hydrophilic model compound. The values for the lipophilic compound are 2.078 (stratum corneum) and 11.34 (deeper skin layer), respectively. This dermaroller was obviously designed to improve the deposition of drug in stratum corneum. The 1.62 times higher deposition in stratum corneum as compared to control, indicated that the needle length was enough to make pores nside the stratum corneum, but was not able to make pores through the whole stratum corneum due to the length of the needles and the flexibility and lipids composition of stratum corneum. In the case of the lipophilic drug, retinol may penetrate deeper into the lipophilic environment, whereas the hydrophilic compound will remain at its deposition site.
The dermaroller M8-1,5-15° [1.5mm regular roller], which has the same number of needles but a much larger needle length (1,5 mm in comparison to 0,13 mm in the case of C8-0,13-15°), was designed to deliver the drug in deeper layers of the skin by perforating the whole stratum corneum. This roller showed a 1.49fold and 1.48times higher deposition in stratum corneum and in deeper skin, respectively, as compared to the control experiment. The results from the pilot experiment, where this dermaroller was applied after deposition of the formulation on the skin surface, showed a much higher deposition of flufenamic acid (12.4fold higher compared to control). The lipophilic compound retinol is deposited into deeper layers of the skin by a factor of 40.7 and the increase of retinol deposition into the stratum corneum by a factor of 2.38 compared to the control. The deposition into the deeper skin layers using the dermaroller shows such a high increase, that under these conditions also a significant part of the compound can be monitored in the receiver compartment (1.8 % of total dose).
In the case of the dermaroller M8-1,5-30° [1.5mm narrow roller] possesses only half the number of needles as the other dermarollers. Because of the different rolling characteristics and due to the higher pressure of a single needle at similar pressure on the dermaroller, the penetration depth of a single needle will be higher. This notion is supported by the experimental findings: the drug deposition in stratum corneum was less as compared to the other derma roller as the number of needles are only half and hence also the half numbers holes in this case. However, the drug deposition in the deeper layer of the skin was at maximum of all the dermarollers (i.e. 2.35 times more as compared to the control experiment), because the complete perforation of the stratum corneum eases the drug diffusion through this barrier. The lipophilic compound retinol does not need this enhancer effect, as this compound can diffuse through the rest of this barrier after depositioning into the stratum corneum.
Conclusions.
The examined Dermaroller are able to deposit hydrophilic and hydrophobic compounds into the
stratum corneum and into deeper skin layers. This could be shown by the Franz diffusion cell model. The scientific results support the intentions of the development protocols for the dermarollers. The Dermaroller C8-0,13-15° [.13mm Home Care roller] is particularly qualified to deposit substances into the stratum corneum, whereas the Dermaroller M8-1,5-15° [1.5mm regular roller] promotes very well the deposition of hydrophilic and hydrophobic compounds into deeper layers of the skin. The third Dermaroller M8-1.5-30° [1.5mm narrow roller] showed the best results for depositing hydrophilic substances in deeper skin layers, if the dermaroller is used before the compound is applied. The presented results can be interpreted on physical ground by the geometry of the different dermarollers.
http://www.dermaroller.co.nz/research/derma-eng.pdf
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No longer answering PM's due to numerous weird messages. |
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clearlipstick
New Member
 
Joined: 10 Aug 2008
Posts: 4
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Thu Aug 14, 2008 1:54 am |
May I ask why this is considered so great and Fraxil Laser is not if the concept is similar?
Clearlipstick |
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Thu Aug 14, 2008 5:40 am |
Thank you, Bethany. It's comforting to have this place with folks like you so kind and willing to help. I haven't taken the plunge yet, still educating myself, but I figure it's one of those things that after the first time or two, I'll feel more in control. I'm sure I'll have specific questions as I get started.
Clearlipstick, maybe I missed a thread where it was said that the Fraxel laser treatment is not great, but it seems a bit like comparing apples with oranges. We each have to chart our own course and choose what's right for us. |
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I’m 60, never smoked, eat healthy, fitness center + hiking, lots of water and nutrients, size 4 jeans  , some lower facial sagging, but it’s improving with AALS, Clarisonic, Remergent, L2K, (including her new hand held devices), Ageless exercises, peels, OCM, etc. “This is my face; deal with it.” Annette Bening |
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Thu Aug 14, 2008 6:03 am |
| clearlipstick wrote: |
May I ask why this is considered so great and Fraxil Laser is not if the concept is similar?
Clearlipstick |
In a nutshell - lasers cause scar tissue to form while this roller causes collegen to form. It also allows actives to penetrate the deeper layers of skin better so they will do their job better.
bethany - this is a great little bit of news-this goes to confirm what everyone has been saying.
My only question is should we apply our products before OR after rolling? And how soon? |
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early 60's, fair skin, combo skin, very few fine lines, vertical lip lines, crows feet & 11's, fighting aging! Using Palancia HF, dermarollers, CPs, Retin A Micro, Safetox, AALS, Clairsonic |
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Thu Aug 14, 2008 6:46 am |
| Thank you so much for posting that info, Bethany. You're the best! |
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Thu Aug 14, 2008 7:41 am |
| Yes, thank you very much, Bethany. |
_________________
65 Caucasion, history of acne, sagging, some wrinkling, rough texture. Using Dermawand, AALS, Microderm Machine,Copper Peptides |
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Thu Aug 14, 2008 7:57 am |
| So from reading that info that Bethany copied here, it seems that if you want even more penetration of the product, you should be applying the product and then using the dermaroller for the best possible results. Did I get that right? |
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Thu Aug 14, 2008 8:07 am |
| rileygirl wrote: |
| So from reading that info that Bethany copied here, it seems that if you want even more penetration of the product, you should be applying the product and then using the dermaroller for the best possible results. Did I get that right? |
This is correct! Apply and then roll.
I also want to point out that the 3Line type roller has the deepest penetration...that confirms my impression that I was getting far deeper needle penetration than when using the regular roller (as evidenced by more under eye bruising).
Takeaway: The 3Line type roller is great for under/around eyes, but should also be considered for small areas of focus (like the 11's, NL lines, etc.)....unless you are already using mega needles! |
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No longer answering PM's due to numerous weird messages. |
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Thu Aug 14, 2008 8:20 am |
My take on this is to apply your creams/gels (lipophilic) before rolling since these did a better job of penetrating compared to water based products.
The dermaroller C8 0,13-15° [.13mm Home Care roller]showed 1.62 times more drug in stratum corneum and 1.48 times more drug in deeper skin as compared to control experiment for the hydrophilic model compound. The values for the lipophilic compound are 2.078 (stratum corneum) and 11.34 (deeper skin layer), respectively
I plan on applying my Retin A 30 minutes before rolling (give it a little time on it's own to absorb, then roll to get it in more) and then, 30 minutes after rolling - apply my CP serum (water based) while the skin is still porous. If the lipophilic compounds have more success, then that goes first! |
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early 60's, fair skin, combo skin, very few fine lines, vertical lip lines, crows feet & 11's, fighting aging! Using Palancia HF, dermarollers, CPs, Retin A Micro, Safetox, AALS, Clairsonic |
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Thu Aug 14, 2008 8:25 am |
bethany - I know applying the Retin A B4 rolling won't work for you since you've already had bad results w/ it.
It seemed to work for me on my first roll - but I waited an hour min. that time. I also applied my diluted CP serum B4 hand, but I didn't feel like it was going in that much. That's why I ended up spot treating w/ some after the roll.
This news is kinda exciting, actually. I've had such good results w/ just CPs, retinoids (Taz/Retin A) and a BHA, that being able to give these products greater access to the deeper layers of skin sounds so promising. |
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early 60's, fair skin, combo skin, very few fine lines, vertical lip lines, crows feet & 11's, fighting aging! Using Palancia HF, dermarollers, CPs, Retin A Micro, Safetox, AALS, Clairsonic |
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Thu Aug 14, 2008 10:03 am |
| Thanks for the confirmation, Bethany and Foxe. I need to get a 3 line roller and get back to work! |
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Thu Aug 14, 2008 2:27 pm |
| foxe wrote: |
| bethany - I know applying the Retin A B4 rolling won't work for you since you've already had bad results w/ it. |
Yep...I have to stick to applying DAYS after I roll, lol.  |
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No longer answering PM's due to numerous weird messages. |
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Thu Aug 14, 2008 2:32 pm |
| clearlipstick wrote: |
May I ask why this is considered so great and Fraxil Laser is not if the concept is similar?
Clearlipstick |
Clear, I have done both the dermaroller ($70)and Fraxel (4 treatments for $3,500), and the dermaroller is better across the board for me.
I have less downtime with the dermaroller, and more improvement. Honestly, Fraxel was a waste of $$$ for me.
However, I do agree that they are similar in the wounding concept...but I suspect that far more wounds are created with rolling. (but I'm not sure about that!) |
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No longer answering PM's due to numerous weird messages. |
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Fri Aug 15, 2008 10:46 am |
After a roll are you supposed to put on anti bacterial cream? I read this on dermarollers . com. And I think the white small bumps are milia, that I got after my first roll. I read that this can happen as the skin heals. Its only in certain areas which is wierd  For example...not on my entire tummy but just on the oblique areas. I also did my arm and they are all over  |
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Fri Aug 15, 2008 11:22 am |
| Thyckecutie wrote: |
| After a roll are you supposed to put on anti bacterial cream? I read this on dermarollers . com. And I think the white small bumps are milia, that I got after my first roll. I read that this can happen as the skin heals. Its only in certain areas which is wierd For example...not on my entire tummy but just on the oblique areas. I also did my arm and they are all over |
Milia is trapped skin oils, so I do not think you have milia from a roll.
It sounds more like little tiny pockets of pus...kind of like some people get after waxing coarse hair.
Going forward, I would definitely wipe down the area with an anti-bacterial cleanser before applying your actives. The longer the needles, the more important this is.
Also, the next time you roll, you might want to try applying your actives the next morning...this could also be a reaction to the actives you are using.
My personal process is to disinfect before the roll, apply the Bactine cleansing spray again after the roll and let that sit for about 20-30 mins. Then I take a LONG shower in tepid water to further flush the wounds....when my skin has dried, I then apply my actives (CPs only)...I apply Retin-A the next evening.
In your case now, you will either have to let them dry up on their own, OR gently exfoliate with a microfiber cloth and then apply an anti-bacterial product to help kill the infection.
BTW, you CANNOT roll again until those are completely healed...otherwise you will spread the bacteria and end up in a much worse situation. And don't forget to clean your roller well before next time...I know you used HP, but I would also use alcohol. Better safe than sorry! |
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No longer answering PM's due to numerous weird messages. |
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Fri Aug 15, 2008 12:38 pm |
| bethany wrote: |
| Thyckecutie wrote: |
| After a roll are you supposed to put on anti bacterial cream? I read this on dermarollers . com. And I think the white small bumps are milia, that I got after my first roll. I read that this can happen as the skin heals. Its only in certain areas which is wierd For example...not on my entire tummy but just on the oblique areas. I also did my arm and they are all over |
Milia is trapped skin oils, so I do not think you have milia from a roll.
It sounds more like little tiny pockets of pus...kind of like some people get after waxing coarse hair.
Going forward, I would definitely wipe down the area with an anti-bacterial cleanser before applying your actives. The longer the needles, the more important this is.
Also, the next time you roll, you might want to try applying your actives the next morning...this could also be a reaction to the actives you are using.
My personal process is to disinfect before the roll, apply the Bactine cleansing spray again after the roll and let that sit for about 20-30 mins. Then I take a LONG shower in tepid water to further flush the wounds....when my skin has dried, I then apply my actives (CPs only)...I apply Retin-A the next evening.
In your case now, you will either have to let them dry up on their own, OR gently exfoliate with a microfiber cloth and then apply an anti-bacterial product to help kill the infection.
BTW, you CANNOT roll again until those are completely healed...otherwise you will spread the bacteria and end up in a much worse situation. And don't forget to clean your roller well before next time...I know you used HP, but I would also use alcohol. Better safe than sorry! |
OMG now Im scared Im going to get some Bactine and alcohol from Wal-Mart right after work. I dont know what happened. I cleaned my roller with HP before and after my roll. I took a shower before I rolled since I read somewhere that you should roll on clean skin. Next time should I just cleanse the areas I want to roll, roll, then take a shower to clean the areas again? This is more difficult then I thought When you spray your roller with Bactine and let it sit for for 20-30 min do you rinse the Bactine off the roller in hot water? Or do you mean you spray yourself with the Bactine spray? Can I get a microfiber cloth from any store? I do have exfoliating gloves that I shower with. What is a good anti bacterial to use?(is this Bactine) Sorry for soo many questions I am a little shaken up |
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Fri Aug 15, 2008 12:56 pm |
I guess I thought it was Milia because of what I read on the dermarollers website
Face & body aftercare:
Immediately after the procedure and for the first two days, the skin may look red and bruised. There may be swelling or oozing. Some people develop milia (small white dots) on the skin as it heals. Acne-breakouts may occur or cold sores may break out if you are prone to them.. |
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Fri Aug 15, 2008 1:30 pm |
| Thyckecutie wrote: |
I guess I thought it was Milia because of what I read on the dermarollers website
Face & body aftercare:
Immediately after the procedure and for the first two days, the skin may look red and bruised. There may be swelling or oozing. Some people develop milia (small white dots) on the skin as it heals. Acne-breakouts may occur or cold sores may break out if you are prone to them.. |
Guess what? I developed a bunch of small pimples this week. In areas I don't normally see any, too. some little blackheads have popped up as well. I will be more diligent w/ cleansing and steralizing w/ my 2nd roll. Will have to wait til this breakout is done, tho. |
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early 60's, fair skin, combo skin, very few fine lines, vertical lip lines, crows feet & 11's, fighting aging! Using Palancia HF, dermarollers, CPs, Retin A Micro, Safetox, AALS, Clairsonic |
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Fri Aug 15, 2008 1:47 pm |
| Well I dont think its Milia from looking at many photos. They are just bumps where I rolled...But not everywhere I rolled. Just one spot!! Hope It goes away soon and will defintaly keep it clean |
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Fri Aug 15, 2008 7:01 pm |
| Thyckecutie wrote: |
| OMG now Im scared Im going to get some Bactine and alcohol from Wal-Mart right after work. I dont know what happened. I cleaned my roller with HP before and after my roll. I took a shower before I rolled since I read somewhere that you should roll on clean skin. Next time should I just cleanse the areas I want to roll, roll, then take a shower to clean the areas again? This is more difficult then I thought When you spray your roller with Bactine and let it sit for for 20-30 min do you rinse the Bactine off the roller in hot water? Or do you mean you spray yourself with the Bactine spray? Can I get a microfiber cloth from any store? I do have exfoliating gloves that I shower with. What is a good anti bacterial to use?(is this Bactine) Sorry for soo many questions I am a little shaken up |
You will be fine!
Ok...here are answers to your questions:
Next time should I just cleanse the areas I want to roll, roll, then take a shower to clean the areas again?
I take rolling and disinfection pretty seriously (but we all know that I err on the side of caution, )...I shower before the roll, and then again after.
When you spray your roller with Bactine and let it sit for for 20-30 min do you rinse the Bactine off the roller in hot water? Or do you mean you spray yourself with the Bactine spray?
I spray my roller with the Bactine spray before I roll (and shake off any excess), and I also wipe down my face with Bactine before I roll. Once I am done rolling, I wipe down my face with Bactine again, let it sit on my face for 20 mins, and then take a long shower under tepid water to further flush out my "wounds."
Can I get a microfiber cloth from any store? I do have exfoliating gloves that I shower with.
I would just use a clean, fresh wash cloth...nothing that has sat in your shower collecting bacteria. Be very gentle.
What is a good anti bacterial to use?(is this Bactine)
I use the generic verison of the Bactine Pain Relieving and Cleansing Spray. |
_________________
No longer answering PM's due to numerous weird messages. |
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Sat Aug 16, 2008 8:20 am |
| bethany wrote: |
| Thyckecutie wrote: |
| OMG now Im scared Im going to get some Bactine and alcohol from Wal-Mart right after work. I dont know what happened. I cleaned my roller with HP before and after my roll. I took a shower before I rolled since I read somewhere that you should roll on clean skin. Next time should I just cleanse the areas I want to roll, roll, then take a shower to clean the areas again? This is more difficult then I thought When you spray your roller with Bactine and let it sit for for 20-30 min do you rinse the Bactine off the roller in hot water? Or do you mean you spray yourself with the Bactine spray? Can I get a microfiber cloth from any store? I do have exfoliating gloves that I shower with. What is a good anti bacterial to use?(is this Bactine) Sorry for soo many questions I am a little shaken up |
You will be fine!
Ok...here are answers to your questions:
Next time should I just cleanse the areas I want to roll, roll, then take a shower to clean the areas again?
I take rolling and disinfection pretty seriously (but we all know that I err on the side of caution, )...I shower before the roll, and then again after.
When you spray your roller with Bactine and let it sit for for 20-30 min do you rinse the Bactine off the roller in hot water? Or do you mean you spray yourself with the Bactine spray?
I spray my roller with the Bactine spray before I roll (and shake off any excess), and I also wipe down my face with Bactine before I roll. Once I am done rolling, I wipe down my face with Bactine again, let it sit on my face for 20 mins, and then take a long shower under tepid water to further flush out my "wounds."
Can I get a microfiber cloth from any store? I do have exfoliating gloves that I shower with.
I would just use a clean, fresh wash cloth...nothing that has sat in your shower collecting bacteria. Be very gentle.
What is a good anti bacterial to use?(is this Bactine)
I use the generic verison of the Bactine Pain Relieving and Cleansing Spray. |
Beth you are so helpful. Thanks so much  I was freaking out for a second. So when you spray the roller and your face with Bactine, does this not harm your skin and get into your pours? Or burn? |
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Sat Aug 16, 2008 9:03 am |
| Thyckecutie wrote: |
| Beth you are so helpful. Thanks so much I was freaking out for a second. So when you spray the roller and your face with Bactine, does this not harm your skin and get into your pours? Or burn? |
No problem.
Yes, the Bactine does get into my pores...but since I don't do this that frequently AND I seriously doubt this will put me in the grave (though the Climax Spray might, lol), I don't really sweat it. Plus, I would rather have a few chemicals than infection.
And no, it doesn't hurt at all...especially when you compare it to rolling! |
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No longer answering PM's due to numerous weird messages. |
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Sun Aug 17, 2008 11:27 am |
| ok so 4 needles are bent on dermaroller. 2 on the left and 2 on the right. Can this damage your skin? I told the ebay seller that I want another one so I have to send this one back and get another one....geez |
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