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DermaRoller

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Lowbrowscientist
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Wed Jan 14, 2009 1:42 pm      Reply with quote
pleiades wrote:
I'll take your advice and whittle down to every other day and try to build back up from there.


Pleiades,

I have a lot of irritation with Retin-A too - I suspect I will never be able to use it daily. Any more than twice a week seems to cause me major issues. I think even using it a couple times a week is still beneficial, though, so I gave up a long time ago on trying to make it a nightly routine.

If your goal is daily use, you may want to consider rotating your RetinA with 302 A Boost. It's formulated specifically to reduce irritation, and it's the only vitamin A product I have ever used that gives me no problems at all. In fact, every single time I use the A Boost (which is every 3rd night or so, since I rotate products), my skin always looks really good the next day.
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Thu Jan 15, 2009 7:05 pm      Reply with quote
Goodness me. I don't know if my bottom is sensitive or not. I guess I'll have to get out the roller and see. I did jump very high when I sat on a hairbrush once Embarassed so I don't hold out much hope of not requiring a numbing cream. It makes sense that the longer needles could poke at the membranes on top of the column of fat that cause cellulite.

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moongoddess
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Fri Jan 16, 2009 9:33 am      Reply with quote
hi
i'm new here, which is a mixed blessing (as u all know, i'm sure)....ugghhh, after reading too much of this thread i bought both the 1.5 and .75 DR's -- i've been mulling this over for about 2 years and have been swept up in the enthusiasm and support of this thread...
I'm scared S%@@ -- i recoil for pain - physical emotional etc...
I think what i'll do (since bethany's photos made QUITE an impression) is start w/ one section of my face and see how it goes -- how the roll feels, how much i bleed and how it heals up. I just want to know what i'm dealing w/ before i take the full face plunge
thanks everyone - this is an exceptional board.
m
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Fri Jan 16, 2009 10:30 am      Reply with quote
Hey Moon, just start out really gently... Bethany is a pro at this. I have started gently with the 1.0 roller and I don't make myself bleed, except for a few pinpricks. I do however, push the actives that I have applied to my skin considerably deeper. I've not used the Emla yet. I think my roller may have become more blunt as I can apply a fair amount of pressure and not hurt badly.

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www.middle-ageless.com Born in 1952. Blonde, very good skin. No noticeable wrinkling. Use AgeOff serum morning and night and with my AALS. Three nights a week, use Bright-I. Desert Essence mineral sunscreen and facial exercise when I have time.
moongoddess
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Sun Jan 18, 2009 11:13 am      Reply with quote
WOW! i LOVE my derma roller...
i wanted to post my 5 minutes post needling results (and the process).
i received my 1.5 on friday - excited and scared simultaneously. i have no numbing solution so i knew it would probably be very painful, yet i just couldn't wait for the numbing cream -- i did a test run last night about 1/2 hour before i was off to a party -- i just had to get a feel for it plus it was beckoning me from the counter -- well i rolled lightly and it felt strange, but it didn't hurt--
so i decided i would take a day this week in the late afternoon when i knew i had 24hrs of down time and press harder-- well the damn thing was beckoning me again, like some kind of genie in a bottle -- i succumed to the temptation, 5 minutes ago. I washed my face, put alcohol on my face, put alcohol on the roller, then washed it all off w/ hot H20 and "went for it"..
all i can say is, based on these posts, i must have a really high tolerance to pain 'cause i heard the popping sound and i've got lots of pricks of blood, but it didn't hurt AT ALL -- just felt strange, but strangely good. I had to make myself stop 'cause the pain threshold wasn't there to help. My face (right side is all i did) looks sunburnt and i have to be at work at 1:00 -- oh well -- all i can think is that all the facial excercising/massage/dry brushing i've been doing over the past 2 years has made my skin pretty tough...or maybe it hurts more the more times you do it...
thanks for listening
m
moongoddess
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Sun Jan 18, 2009 12:16 pm      Reply with quote
or maybe i just didn't press hard enough Confused --after reviewing Bethany's pictures, i'm guessing i need to press harder - there were prics of blood on my face, but i didn't look like i'd been in battle!
tomorrow i'll try the other side of my face, applying more pressure.
QUESTION:
do i now need to wait AT LEAST 2 weeks to RE-DO today's roll (since i'm thinking it wasn't hard enough) or does it "not count" 'cause i wasn't a bloody mess.
Thanks again
m
Lowbrowscientist
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Sun Jan 18, 2009 3:22 pm      Reply with quote
moongoddess wrote:
or maybe i just didn't press hard enough Confused --after reviewing Bethany's pictures, i'm guessing i need to press harder - there were prics of blood on my face, but i didn't look like i'd been in battle!
tomorrow i'll try the other side of my face, applying more pressure.
QUESTION:
do i now need to wait AT LEAST 2 weeks to RE-DO today's roll (since i'm thinking it wasn't hard enough) or does it "not count" 'cause i wasn't a bloody mess.
Thanks again
m


Moongoddess,

I had that very question - in the end, I ended up looking REALLY rough for awhile because, without even realizing it, I was discounting some of my rolling sessions because I didn't think they were intense enough. When I went back and counted all the times I had rolled - even those that didn't seem like they could do much - I realized I was really overdoing it.


Bottom line: wait the two weeks, or even three, if you can discipline yourself to do so.

You do obviously have a high pain tolerance, which is a good thing, and you seem to be one of the lucky ones who get away with minimal swelling/redness/bruising afterward and very short downtime. This is good, to a degree.

But sometimes I think that those of us that have very visible reactions are the lucky ones, because we can clearly see that we need to back off. Thus far, the people having the absolute best results are those who roll very intensely and then back off for four to six weeks. It sounds like a lot, but you need to allow time for the skin to fully recover, and if you are rolling too often, you are destroying the results of your previous roll. It takes three months for the collagen to BEGIN forming, and after that it can still take up to a year to see the full results. So, this definitely isn't one of those things where more is better.

Also, if you haven't already, check out the CIT/Dermarolling articles thread, where Bethany a few others have posted the clinical protocols. Following the inventors' protocol as closely as you can will increase your odds of getting the dramatic results they acheived.

Good luck, and happy rolling Smile
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Sun Jan 18, 2009 4:50 pm      Reply with quote
Hi Lowbrowscientist

thanks you for taking the time to reply. I suspected that i would be overrolling if i discounted today's roll. I agree that the pain (that can be) involved in rolling is a built in stop mechanism, and since i don't seem to have it, i need to exhibit maximum self control -- it's strange how good it felt to roll and i can see the pull to over do it, BUT i won't. I've read alot of the posts on this board as well as the links Bethany posted to the originators' sites. I have grasped that in the case of DR less is better w/ the longer needes and that i need to have patience and allow the collagen to build.
btw - by the time i left for work, i had almost no redness left in the area treated - and then the mind plays trick "well, that must not have worked..."
thanks again for the feedback
m
Lowbrowscientist
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Sun Jan 18, 2009 5:27 pm      Reply with quote
moongoddess wrote:
Hi Lowbrowscientist

thanks you for taking the time to reply. I suspected that i would be overrolling if i discounted today's roll. I agree that the pain (that can be) involved in rolling is a built in stop mechanism, and since i don't seem to have it, i need to exhibit maximum self control -- it's strange how good it felt to roll and i can see the pull to over do it, BUT i won't. I've read alot of the posts on this board as well as the links Bethany posted to the originators' sites. I have grasped that in the case of DR less is better w/ the longer needes and that i need to have patience and allow the collagen to build.
btw - by the time i left for work, i had almost no redness left in the area treated - and then the mind plays trick "well, that must not have worked..."
thanks again for the feedback
m


Moongoddess, you're very welcome - and you're being really smart by reading all the info out there!

I totally know what you mean about it feeling good to roll, it can be SO addictive Silenced ... and, yup, my brain just completely wrote off one or two of the rolls I had done because something or other didn't go as planned.

Do you have any areas other than your face that need work? One way to indulge the desire to roll is to roll your face one week, your decollatage(sp?) the next, your hands next, etc. Your arms and body would probably require longer needles (2mm or more) but if you had any issues elsewhere, you can alternate while still getting your "fix" Laughing (just be sure to replace your rollers frequently enough)
moongoddess
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Mon Jan 19, 2009 6:46 pm      Reply with quote
Hello to anybody out there (lowbrowscientist?)
Well, i just completed my second "test" roll. I did the left side of my face and forhead. Definately have a high tolerance to pain - i know this because i pushed the roller in deeper and looked like i'd been massacred and i was not feeling any pain (just a weird gratifying sensation (though my eyes did water when i hit the NL folds) I rolled each section roughly 15 times in each direction -vert/horiz/diag and i was good and bloody! Bethany would be proud! I must say that while i don't have the pain as a built in stop mechanism, the bloody visual does help! - that being said, i still questioned whether a thoroughly bloodied area had FOR SURE been rolled, and so rolled "just in case" - that's when i knew TO STOP! Post roll put on alcohol - washed off w/ warm H20 and then applied Let's Make Collagen. Immediately post roll, face felt hot,hot and looked majorly sunburned - now, 40 minutes later, face looks red, but not so bad that i wouldn't go to the store if i had to...

Lowbrowscientist - yes, i want to roll other parts of my body (like, from head to toe Laughing ) and i also considered this could be my "fix".
I still have some question as to time spacing between rolls - there are several different views -
1x per week for six weeks
1x per month (or even 2month) for 6 months (or 6 rolls if spaceing up to 2 months)
and
definately absolutely wait AT LEAST 2 weeks before 2nd roll......... Confused Confused Crying or Very sad
do i just make my own choice?
Thank you
m
Lowbrowscientist
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Mon Jan 19, 2009 7:22 pm      Reply with quote
moongoddess wrote:
Hello to anybody out there (lowbrowscientist?)
Well, i just completed my second "test" roll. I did the left side of my face and forhead. Definately have a high tolerance to pain - i know this because i pushed the roller in deeper and looked like i'd been massacred and i was not feeling any pain (just a weird gratifying sensation (though my eyes did water when i hit the NL folds) I rolled each section roughly 15 times in each direction -vert/horiz/diag and i was good and bloody! Bethany would be proud! I must say that while i don't have the pain as a built in stop mechanism, the bloody visual does help! - that being said, i still questioned whether a thoroughly bloodied area had FOR SURE been rolled, and so rolled "just in case" - that's when i knew TO STOP! Post roll put on alcohol - washed off w/ warm H20 and then applied Let's Make Collagen. Immediately post roll, face felt hot,hot and looked majorly sunburned - now, 40 minutes later, face looks red, but not so bad that i wouldn't go to the store if i had to...

Lowbrowscientist - yes, i want to roll other parts of my body (like, from head to toe Laughing ) and i also considered this could be my "fix".
I still have some question as to time spacing between rolls - there are several different views -
1x per week for six weeks
1x per month (or even 2month) for 6 months (or 6 rolls if spaceing up to 2 months)
and
definately absolutely wait AT LEAST 2 weeks before 2nd roll......... Confused Confused Crying or Very sad
do i just make my own choice?
Thank you
m


Moongoddess, sounds like you did great! I'm so jealous of your high pain tolerance Neutral ..haha

There are a number of people who rolled weekly for 6 weeks then took breaks (this was with 1.5mm needles). At the beginning, I don't think anyone but Bethany was rolling with the *intensity* that brings optimum results, so it was hard to determine whether that schedule was ideal. But, at least one person had a really bad response to this (she was also doing TCA peels and other things). I believe about 20 pages back, most of them recanted that method and decided to do more intense rolls with less frequency.

Also, I recall one person was using longer 2mm needles to do intense rolls every 8 weeks, and she had REALLY good results. (I don't think even the Emla would numb me enough for needles that long Silenced )

Anyway, waiting at least 4 to 6 weeks between rolls seems to be the safest method, it's part of the protocol used by the original inventors (who got very dramatic results with their clients). Anything more frequent than that and you're approaching a point of diminishing returns. For many, rolling more frequently hinders results and they had to learn that the hard way.

But ultimately, it's up to you to decide - just read all the articles about micro inflammation (i.e. chronic inflammation that is not visible but will still do damage), be very observant to how your skin is doing, and use your best judgement.
moongoddess
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Mon Jan 19, 2009 8:07 pm      Reply with quote
hi LBS
and thankyou for the info.
i thought one of the originators said he did it every week for six weeks...

i'll go back and look. My gut is to proceed conservatively so that the body is allowed to do it's "thing". Then again, i'm tempted to roll one side of my face every week for six weeks and the other 1x per month for 6 months...i'll sleep on that one!

also, i was thinking, i bet the roll doesn't hurt as much for me 'cause i'm not using the cross-hatched design from Dr. Roller..

thanks so much lowbrowscientist!
m
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Tue Jan 20, 2009 12:06 am      Reply with quote
moongoddess wrote:
also, i was thinking, i bet the roll doesn't hurt as much for me 'cause i'm not using the cross-hatched design from Dr. Roller...


I am betting that you are quite right. Based on everything I have read, the cross-linked needle pattern increases surface tension and allows the needles to penetrate deeper (which hurts more).

But it does sound like you rolled pretty aggressively, which is what it takes. Rolling can be addictive, but I truly believe less is more in this instance. I am now rolling every 3 months, and do not plan on changing that frequency (unless I move to every 6 months).

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Tue Jan 20, 2009 7:07 am      Reply with quote
I rolled the tops of my hands yesterday, and they look gorgeous today!

I am hoping to thicken the skin enough to help disguise the veins that stick out, and this morning they are inflamed just enough to look really great.

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Tue Jan 20, 2009 9:02 am      Reply with quote
bethany wrote:
moongoddess wrote:
also, i was thinking, i bet the roll doesn't hurt as much for me 'cause i'm not using the cross-hatched design from Dr. Roller...


I am betting that you are quite right. Based on everything I have read, the cross-linked needle pattern increases surface tension and allows the needles to penetrate deeper (which hurts more).

But it does sound like you rolled pretty aggressively, which is what it takes. Rolling can be addictive, but I truly believe less is more in this instance. I am now rolling every 3 months, and do not plan on changing that frequency (unless I move to every 6 months).


I'm loving the post roll (visible) inflamation - though i know it won't last but a day or two -- (put on some actives before bed -copper pep 2x and retin a - definately created a bit of "irrateness" in skin - but nothing major).

bethany -- i am leaning towards 1x per month - i like the idea of being able to observe subtle changes (hopefully) rather than overdoing it and then having to back track and find cures. The cross hatch is tempting, but i know i got a good roll w/ the uniform roller.
m
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Wed Jan 21, 2009 11:43 am      Reply with quote
newbie here!

Amazing trove of good information.

Have a question about dermarolling. Everyone talks about doing 1.5mm for skin remodeling/scar management.

I am reading that once a week for seek weeks and then 2-3 months break or maybe even continuing with once a month treatment.

How about 0.5mm for help with skin care product penetration? How often can you do it safely?

For instance, while I am doing an initial series of 1.5mm weekly dermarolling, can I also include 0.5mm treatment in between for better product penetration? Or, should I wait until the 6 weekly course if over, and then what? Can I do 0.5mm several times a week, once a week????

Thanks
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Wed Jan 21, 2009 1:04 pm      Reply with quote
another question.

can I start off with 2mm dermarolling? My skin is very well conditioned and I have a very high pain threshold. AND, I am planning to order EMLA lotion for topical numbing.

Well, what do you think?
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Wed Jan 21, 2009 9:11 pm      Reply with quote
moongoddess wrote:
bethany -- i am leaning towards 1x per month - i like the idea of being able to observe subtle changes (hopefully) rather than overdoing it and then having to back track and find cures. The cross hatch is tempting, but i know i got a good roll w/ the uniform roller.
m


I think that is a very smart choice....if I had to do my own rolls over again, I would not have rolled 6 weeks in a row.

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Wed Jan 21, 2009 9:12 pm      Reply with quote
hyeonjlee wrote:
another question.

can I start off with 2mm dermarolling? My skin is very well conditioned and I have a very high pain threshold. AND, I am planning to order EMLA lotion for topical numbing.

Well, what do you think?


Why would you want to start with 2.0mm?

And have you read any of the articles by the pros?

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hyeonjlee
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Wed Jan 21, 2009 9:33 pm      Reply with quote
Bethany,

I did not read ALL the posts, but I read a very large portion of it.

A lot of people seem happy with 1.5mm, but 2mm version is a more "thorough workout" - so to speak.

So, I was wondering if there is any real down side to starting at 2mm level if your skin can handle it.

On the other hand, if 1.5mm produces all the good stuff and 2mm just provides barely marginal improvement, it probably is not worth it.

Your input would be greatly appreciated.
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Wed Jan 21, 2009 11:32 pm      Reply with quote
Hey Hyeonjlee,

Try reading through the last 25 pages or so of this thread, rather than starting from the beginning. What you'll find is that many people have modified their routines since they started because what they were doing originally either:

1] wasn't working (though it may have appeared to work at the time)

2] was actually hindering new collagen production and causing damage


When it comes to rolling, more is not better (pain tolerance is irrelevant). Since the thread was started, we have LOTS of new info - please check the CIT/Dermarolling Articles thread. Bethany painstakingly searched for every scrap of info she could find, talked to the inventors themselves, and kindly posted it all here so we could benefit from it. It will save you a lot of time and money, and prevent you from wrecking your skin.

Figure out what you want to accomplish by rolling, what size roller(s) you need, and read the inventors' protocols regarding procedure and what topicals you need to use for successful skin regeneration. When you've taken care of all that, if you still have questions, come back and we will try to point you in the right direction Smile


hyeonjlee wrote:
Bethany,

I did not read ALL the posts, but I read a very large portion of it.

A lot of people seem happy with 1.5mm, but 2mm version is a more "thorough workout" - so to speak.

So, I was wondering if there is any real down side to starting at 2mm level if your skin can handle it.

On the other hand, if 1.5mm produces all the good stuff and 2mm just provides barely marginal improvement, it probably is not worth it.

Your input would be greatly appreciated.
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Wed Jan 21, 2009 11:47 pm      Reply with quote
Low, you read my mind! Very Happy


Hyeonjlee, here is the thread to check out:
http://www.essentialdayspa.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=29860

At a minimum, please read these two:

Environ® Medical Roll-CIT™ Micro-needling
Revolutionary New Approach to Medical Needling

Probably my FAVORITE rolling article - it contains frequency recommendations, as well as pre- and post-roll protocols for optimal collagen development. Also comparisons of rolling with 1mm vs. 3mm needles.
http://www.dermaconcepts.com/2004/environ1mmNeedling1.pdf

Minimally Invasive Percutaneous Collagen Induction
Desmond Fernandes, MB, BCh, FRCS(Edin)
This article provides a great overview of how collagen is developed with the micro needling process, as well as the rolling protcol, etc. (pics included)
http://www.dermogenesis.com/roll-cit/Clinics_of_N_Am_2005.pdf

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Wed Jan 21, 2009 11:49 pm      Reply with quote
Miss Tina wrote:

I have only rolled twice with the 2.5 and only applied witch hazel afterwards. I didn't put any special cremes and just let it all sit. I did have to use ice though and the only way you can see my cellulite is if I squish it. My boyfriend said that the difference was night and day.. I should have taken before and after pics, you would be impressed! Cool


How long did you wait before assessing the night and day difference?

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Thu Jan 22, 2009 1:40 pm      Reply with quote
Hello to all,
Just joined EDS after reading the 109 pages - and the links - and the cit thread.
So unbelievably helpful this has been.
I've ordered 302 products after reading the thread boski started - quite excited to make the switch from retin A to 302.
I just want to ask a couple of questions that I know are answered - I just cannot find the particular page out of the 109...
In any case I've purchased the
.25 for prod.pen.
1.5 3L
1.5 reg.roller
Re: the .25:
-Would it be more beneficial to apply warmed 302 drops to wet face and THEN roll w/ .25mm roller while product is on face?
-Or should I roll then apply drops?
-Also how often would you all recommend rolling with the .25?

BTW – just started Ageless if You Dare and L2K...the enabling on this website is just something else......

Just one last quest. then I'll stop - thought the word on ultrasound was good - Dr. H seems to recommend it (as well as some of you) and also LED… (which I know absolutely nothing about)
-Could you all let me know which LED machines have been helpful to you?
Trying to thicken epidermis - raise shallow rolling acne scars - make enlarged pores just go far away forever and ever....

Again - I know I'm asking someone to repeat themselves but would greatly appreciate any and all informed opinions.....
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Thu Jan 22, 2009 3:53 pm      Reply with quote
thanks for your replies.

OK. I am now reading last 20-30 posts (I was reading from the beginning - wow, I did not read with such dedication anything since I was cramming for my qualifying exam during the Ph.D. program).

You guys are amazing with the info and the WILLINGNESS to share your insight with others. My hat's off to you all.

I will do more reading, and if I still have questions, I will get back.

Again, thank you soooooooooooo very much.
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