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DermaRoller

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SansSouci572
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Thu Apr 30, 2009 11:56 am      Reply with quote
Elle2009 wrote:
Do you or anyone else here really think that 1mm fortnightly roll is too much? Many Thanks Elle


Yes, way too much, based on what the others have been writing for at least the last 50 pages or so...
I haven't started yet, as I am only 1 month into getting prepped with vit A and C. But when I am ready, I am going to do exactly what the others suggested worked best. Otherwise its just a waste of time, or worse!
SansSouci572
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Thu Apr 30, 2009 12:05 pm      Reply with quote
What is going to be "scary" is to start rolling is this squishy soft skin, and the neck. I think I shall use short needles on the neck!
Shock Also I have huge patches of spider veins. That is going to be a bloody mess! That will be a double bonus to get rid of those though.
vivre
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Thu Apr 30, 2009 12:38 pm      Reply with quote
Elle2009 wrote:
SansSouci572 wrote:
Do you or anyone else here really think that 1mm fortnightly roll is too much? Many Thanks Elle

Yes, way too much, based on what the others have been writing for at least the last 50 pages or so...
I haven't started yet, as I am only 1 month into getting prepped with vit A and C. But when I am ready, I am going to do exactly what the others suggested worked best. Otherwise its just a waste of time, or worse!


Be careful!! You cannot see inflammation and it creeps up on you....I have cut down on rolling (I was rolling weekly with a 1mm although I thought it was a 1.5mm at the time). All of a sudden after about four to five rolls I developed lines on my forehead that were not there previously.....They appeared one day almost out of nowhere.....I am hoping they are dehydrated skin and my forehead will hopefully return to it's pre-rolling state. Further the nice red inflammation that puffs up your skin can be so deceiving as it seems to look like results....so you keep up your rolling protocol....Unfortunately you may see worse skin than when you started if you keep up the high rolling frequency...Just a word of caution...obviously you are free to do as you wish.....but it would be a shame for you to experience what I have been dealing with....as I am still very concerned that maybe I have created permanent damage. I have been treating the wrinkly area with Emu oil and is still wrinkly..... Again...I did not have these lines pre rolling...and have been dealing with them for over two weeks now....I cannot tell you how important it is to proceed with caution and use a better safe than sorry rolling protocol.....
Barefootgirl
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Thu Apr 30, 2009 1:08 pm      Reply with quote
Hi boski,

Thank you so much for your insight and information.

I definitely want to look more into the 302 products and learn more about tetrahexyldecyl ascorbate.

I will look at that link from lotioncrafter, thank you. Do you have any more links or references to it being superior to MAP?

I would be happy to find a C based serum that does not degrade so easily (as well as being effective and not too irritating when using in conjunction with rolling) - sometimes this seems like a tall order!

Thanks, BF
rileygirl
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Thu Apr 30, 2009 1:33 pm      Reply with quote
Barefoot, here is some definitions of C from smartskincare. If you dig around on that site, you will probably find more info, as well.

http://www.smartskincare.com/treatments/topical/vitcderiv.html


And a few other links for you.

http://www.truthinaging.com/2009/03/part-4-what-is-it-vitamin-c-derivatives.html

http://www.johnandginger.co.uk/medik8-ce-tetra-10749-0.html
boski
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Thu Apr 30, 2009 1:41 pm      Reply with quote
Barefootgirl wrote:
Hi boski,

Thank you so much for your insight and information.

I definitely want to look more into the 302 products and learn more about tetrahexyldecyl ascorbate.

I will look at that link from lotioncrafter, thank you. Do you have any more links or references to it being superior to MAP?

I would be happy to find a C based serum that does not degrade so easily (as well as being effective and not too irritating when using in conjunction with rolling) - sometimes this seems like a tall order!

Thanks, BF


I made an error in my last post, I just found out MAP was water soluble, not fat soluble. Sorry about that. I couldn't find a whole lot on tetrahexyldecyl ascorbate compared to MAP. But I did find this article from Truth in Aging about all the different types of Vitamin C. I guess you have to weigh the pros and cons of each and come to your own conclusion. I just know I like the 302 version. It seems to work for me.

http://www.truthinaging.com/2009/03/part-4-what-is-it-vitamin-c-derivatives.html

ETA: Rileygirl beat me to the post....I stated that tetrahexyldecyl was more effective than MAP, because the MAP C was the form originally used in the 302 C products and then they made a switch in the last couple years. I have to assume they did that because their research showed it superior. The tetrahexyldecyl is a relatively new form of C and not cheap compared to other forms of C, whereas L-ascorbic is dirt cheap. The main problem with it is it's unstable nature and irritation potention. Read the rebuttal at the very end of the article too. It's a controversial subject.
rileygirl
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Thu Apr 30, 2009 3:00 pm      Reply with quote
Also, don't forget that Skinmedica uses the tetra form (along with ascorbic) in their C product, which says something to me anyway about the tetra being effective. Here is the study of the Skinmedica C product.

http://www.skin-medica.ru/docs/spesialist/VitC-Fitzpatrick-Low-Rez.pdf
Elle2009
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Thu Apr 30, 2009 3:46 pm      Reply with quote
vivre wrote:
Elle2009 wrote:
SansSouci572 wrote:
Do you or anyone else here really think that 1mm fortnightly roll is too much? Many Thanks Elle

Yes, way too much, based on what the others have been writing for at least the last 50 pages or so...
I haven't started yet, as I am only 1 month into getting prepped with vit A and C. But when I am ready, I am going to do exactly what the others suggested worked best. Otherwise its just a waste of time, or worse!


Be careful!! You cannot see inflammation and it creeps up on you....I have cut down on rolling (I was rolling weekly with a 1mm although I thought it was a 1.5mm at the time). All of a sudden after about four to five rolls I developed lines on my forehead that were not there previously.....They appeared one day almost out of nowhere.....I am hoping they are dehydrated skin and my forehead will hopefully return to it's pre-rolling state. Further the nice red inflammation that puffs up your skin can be so deceiving as it seems to look like results....so you keep up your rolling protocol....Unfortunately you may see worse skin than when you started if you keep up the high rolling frequency...Just a word of caution...obviously you are free to do as you wish.....but it would be a shame for you to experience what I have been dealing with....as I am still very concerned that maybe I have created permanent damage. I have been treating the wrinkly area with Emu oil and is still wrinkly..... Again...I did not have these lines pre rolling...and have been dealing with them for over two weeks now....I cannot tell you how important it is to proceed with caution and use a better safe than sorry rolling protocol.....


Hi vivre, thank you for reminding me of your experience I now recall that I had read it before. Why do most sellers say it can be used gently daily or more intense weekly or monthly. Are there any other rollers in this forum who experienced any issues with rolling weekly or even monthly? Thanks Elle
Barefootgirl
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Thu Apr 30, 2009 4:16 pm      Reply with quote
Thank you so much for the quick responses with more information.

It is interesting to read the very recent debates on the topic.

I am becoming something of an amateur skincare sleuth lately.

BF
moongoddess
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Thu Apr 30, 2009 5:59 pm      Reply with quote
cloudpuff_2007 wrote:
Has anyone purchased and had success with a dermaroller other than the brand of Dr. Roller? I found a dermaroller on ebay for around 60 bucks but its dermarollers.us and i was wondering if this was more or less the same thing


HI Cloudpugg

i got a DR from someone off ebay for 35 bucks(i do believe i've lost the email address)...it's a nice roller and i had great results
moongoddess
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Thu Apr 30, 2009 6:00 pm      Reply with quote
Laughing Laughing Laughing

oops, guess i mistyped your name
vivre
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Thu Apr 30, 2009 8:35 pm      Reply with quote
Elle2009 wrote:
vivre wrote:
Elle2009 wrote:
SansSouci572 wrote:
Do you or anyone else here really think that 1mm fortnightly roll is too much? Many Thanks Elle

Yes, way too much, based on what the others have been writing for at least the last 50 pages or so...
I haven't started yet, as I am only 1 month into getting prepped with vit A and C. But when I am ready, I am going to do exactly what the others suggested worked best. Otherwise its just a waste of time, or worse!


Be careful!! You cannot see inflammation and it creeps up on you....I have cut down on rolling (I was rolling weekly with a 1mm although I thought it was a 1.5mm at the time). All of a sudden after about four to five rolls I developed lines on my forehead that were not there previously.....They appeared one day almost out of nowhere.....I am hoping they are dehydrated skin and my forehead will hopefully return to it's pre-rolling state. Further the nice red inflammation that puffs up your skin can be so deceiving as it seems to look like results....so you keep up your rolling protocol....Unfortunately you may see worse skin than when you started if you keep up the high rolling frequency...Just a word of caution...obviously you are free to do as you wish.....but it would be a shame for you to experience what I have been dealing with....as I am still very concerned that maybe I have created permanent damage. I have been treating the wrinkly area with Emu oil and is still wrinkly..... Again...I did not have these lines pre rolling...and have been dealing with them for over two weeks now....I cannot tell you how important it is to proceed with caution and use a better safe than sorry rolling protocol.....


Hi vivre, thank you for reminding me of your experience I now recall that I had read it before. Why do most sellers say it can be used gently daily or more intense weekly or monthly. Are there any other rollers in this forum who experienced any issues with rolling weekly or even monthly? Thanks Elle



Well I have heard of some rollers experiencing little improvement but still not sure if anyone has experienced permanent damage...may be an interesting thread to create...Again, I'm still unsure what is happening with my forehead...I'm hoping it's just a case of the dehydrated skin uglies.....I will let everyone know if it improves (it seemed to be at one point but has regressed.....so I'm still waiting and hoping!!!) On the other hand, there may be some other reasons for the uglies....I am thinking that it may have something to do with the fact that I'm pregnant and maybe the baby is taking all my nutrients so my skin is not healing properly. Further, maybe the vitamin A I have been using is not strong enough as I have been using Rose Hip Seed oil which has natural retinol on it, and beta carotene which our body turns to vitamin A...I am just not allowed to use Retin A in pregnancy...Hopefully everything will work itself out...however I still feel that it may be a good idea to caution others....After all, rolling is quite a new concept.....Probably better to do more intense and spaced out rolls like the others who have had success on this forum...I know it's contradictory when the sellers state that we can use this roller frequently....however it is in their financual interest to do so....after all, the more a roller gets used the more we have to buy replacement rollers...
Barefootgirl
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Fri May 01, 2009 5:40 am      Reply with quote
As a means of working my way up to the longer needle rollers, I did my first roll last night with the Leaf & Rusher cosmetic roller. My skin was red for several minutes afterward, but then it went away.

This morning, I applied Skinmedica C serum and it stung more than usual and I actually noticed a difference. In the past, whenever my skin was sensitive from retinoids, the Skinmedica product would sting, but this time I only felt "pin pricks" of the stinging sensation over my face - very odd.

The Skinmedica C product is interesting. It contains the ascorbic and tetra derivative forms of Vitamin C in a silicone base. Silicone is a substance which actually serves to form a barrier over the skin in order to prevent penetration - so to see it used with an active ingredient is interesting. I once sent a note to the company asking how the active ingredients are able to penetrate the skin when suspended in a carrier that actually serves to sit on top of the skin. Their response was something along the lines that this is a trade secret.

BF
Barefootgirl
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Fri May 01, 2009 5:43 am      Reply with quote
One more thing: needle size.

For collagen building, it seems as if the articles and board postings refer both to the 1mm and 1.5mm sized rollers.

I read Bethany's question on this to Horst Liebl. While he responded with an interesting reply, he did not address the issue directly (or at least in a way that I can discern).

Is there a consensus on this?

Thanks, BF
Barefootgirl
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Fri May 01, 2009 8:39 am      Reply with quote
This concept jumps out at me, but may be obvious to all who have already been rolling -

For skincare purposes, certain forms of Vitamin A such as retinyl palmitate and C such as tetrahexyldecyl ascorbic are often considered weaker/less effective than their traditional counterparts - Retin A and L-Ascorbic Acid - but in the case of these latter forms of the Vitamins, they are only considered more effective because they are applied on top of intact skin.

With the case of dermarolling, because we are opening channels directly into the skin - we need to use gentler, "weaker" forms of these vitamins so as to avoid extreme irritation and inflammation (?)

Ok, maybe I am overloading on dermarolling info and overthinking all of this and need to take a break! Smile

Thanks, BF
rileygirl
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Fri May 01, 2009 9:12 am      Reply with quote
Barefootgirl wrote:
With the case of dermarolling, because we are opening channels directly into the skin - we need to use gentler, "weaker" forms of these vitamins so as to avoid extreme irritation and inflammation (?)

Ok, maybe I am overloading on dermarolling info and overthinking all of this and need to take a break! Smile

Thanks, BF


I think the weaker forms are recommended due to what you said, possible irritation. Also, just wanted to throw my 2 cents in here, but don't forget that a lot of skin care products were not designed to go any deeper than they can penetrate on their own. We do not know what the possible effects of penetrating in a lot of different products/actives can or will do to our bodies in the future. Just something to keep in mind!

BF, I think it is great that you are thinking about all of these things, asking questions, and trying to find answers rather than just following blindly along. Kudos to you! Very Happy
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Fri May 01, 2009 9:33 am      Reply with quote
Hi rileygirl Smile

Yes, I have been accused of needing too much info..I think I researched low carb dieting for 6 months before I changed my eating habits!

What got me thinking about this was a reference in one of the articles to a 4,000% increase (or some number close to that) in terms of product penetration. Logic tells me that this could push these topicals well, well into the medication or overdose range.

It some ways, it is similar to the transdermal patch for drug delivery.

BF
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Fri May 01, 2009 11:06 am      Reply with quote
Elle2009 wrote:
Hi vivre, thank you for reminding me of your experience I now recall that I had read it before. Why do most sellers say it can be used gently daily or more intense weekly or monthly.


This shouldn't really be too surprising... the vendors are trying to make sales. They don't know and probably don't care about all the clinical research that supports infrequent but aggressive rolling. That method doesn't attract many buyers and wouldn't sell many rollers.

Quote:
Are there any other rollers in this forum who experienced any issues with rolling weekly or even monthly? Thanks Elle


There are several who have had issues, some of them pretty major ones, from rolling weekly, and some have had problems with rolling every two weeks. I'm guessing you haven't read through the last half of the thread?

The only people NOT having trouble with frequent rolls are those who are rolling lightly. In their case, the positive results are a thickening of the epidermis, which can be achieved with shorter needles. The results may be somewhat short-lived, but it's not harming anything. If it's micro-inflammation, though, you may start off looking better but in a few months or more your skin could end up worse than when you started -- this is the risk of frequent rolling.
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Fri May 01, 2009 11:22 am      Reply with quote
Barefootgirl wrote:
<< think the main problem many people face is not obvious inflammation, but rather microinflammation, which is not visible to the naked eye.... this is how rollers get into trouble, they can't even see the damage until late in the game.

Does this result from rolling too frequently, too aggressively or possibly, both?


This all seems to hinge on frequency. Aggressive rolling is actually how the inventors have gotten such dramatic results with scar and wrinkle removal, but it has to be spaced out by a month or more. Some people may be able to get away slightly less, depending on how quickly they heal, but if you misjudge, you risk reducing or eliminating any progress from the previous roll, and it hardly seems worth the risk.

Quote:
So to summarize, the key to most of these anti-aging products, solutions as well as devices is to produce "controlled inflammation"..which can be monitored by external signs such as redness, pain, etc.


If you're talking about devices or procedures that operate on the "wounding" principle, then yes, the idea is to trigger the wound healing cascade, part of which is the inflammation. But having chronic inflammation defeats the entire purpose, so after the first 4 days or so, you can resume with anti-inflammatory topicals and devices (LEDs, etc)

Quote:
As far as microinflammation - if you can't see it or feel it - you can only control it by spacing out your rolling sessions?


Precisely - this is why the inventors advocate spreading CIT treatments out by a month or more, regardless of how the skin looks in the interim.
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Fri May 01, 2009 1:20 pm      Reply with quote
Lowbrowscientist wrote:
Elle2009 wrote:
Hi vivre, thank you for reminding me of your experience I now recall that I had read it before. Why do most sellers say it can be used gently daily or more intense weekly or monthly.


This shouldn't really be too surprising... the vendors are trying to make sales. They don't know and probably don't care about all the clinical research that supports infrequent but aggressive rolling. That method doesn't attract many buyers and wouldn't sell many rollers.

Quote:
Are there any other rollers in this forum who experienced any issues with rolling weekly or even monthly? Thanks Elle


There are several who have had issues, some of them pretty major ones, from rolling weekly, and some have had problems with rolling every two weeks. I'm guessing you haven't read through the last half of the thread?

The only people NOT having trouble with frequent rolls are those who are rolling lightly. In their case, the positive results are a thickening of the epidermis, which can be achieved with shorter needles. The results may be somewhat short-lived, but it's not harming anything. If it's micro-inflammation, though, you may start off looking better but in a few months or more your skin could end up worse than when you started -- this is the risk of frequent rolling.


Hi Lowbrowscientist, I read the entire thread twice but it is difficult to remember everything and I did read about the one user who rolled and used tca, which I think is madness, who ended up with lots of issues. I take all advise on board and have already decided not to roll for a while except on a test patch on my body. Many Thanks Elle
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Fri May 01, 2009 1:28 pm      Reply with quote
vivre wrote:


Well I have heard of some rollers experiencing little improvement but still not sure if anyone has experienced permanent damage...may be an interesting thread to create...Again, I'm still unsure what is happening with my forehead...I'm hoping it's just a case of the dehydrated skin uglies.....I will let everyone know if it improves (it seemed to be at one point but has regressed.....so I'm still waiting and hoping!!!) On the other hand, there may be some other reasons for the uglies....I am thinking that it may have something to do with the fact that I'm pregnant and maybe the baby is taking all my nutrients so my skin is not healing properly. Further, maybe the vitamin A I have been using is not strong enough as I have been using Rose Hip Seed oil which has natural retinol on it, and beta carotene which our body turns to vitamin A...I am just not allowed to use Retin A in pregnancy...Hopefully everything will work itself out...however I still feel that it may be a good idea to caution others....After all, rolling is quite a new concept.....Probably better to do more intense and spaced out rolls like the others who have had success on this forum...I know it's contradictory when the sellers state that we can use this roller frequently....however it is in their financual interest to do so....after all, the more a roller gets used the more we have to buy replacement rollers...


Hi vivre, I do hope that your forehead recovers and quickly but maybe your right and it is due to you being pregnant and your body's energy is going to your growing baby foremost and all. I saw one post on realself from a lady who said that her forehead looked onion skin like and lined after rolling and one dr said he doubted it was caused by the rolling. Just thought I share this. Good luck to you. Elle
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Fri May 01, 2009 1:57 pm      Reply with quote
Elle2009 wrote:
Hi Lowbrowscientist, I read the entire thread twice but it is difficult to remember everything


The second half of the thread is really the most beneficial -- I wonder if a mod would be able to edit the first post to add a FAQ and selected pages? It would save people the trouble of reading through the entire thing and not being able to retain everything... or worse, giving up after 10 pages or so. During the last half of the thread, everyone was seeing results, whether good or bad, from their routines, and this is when we started getting more knowledge about how and why rolling works, and the best ways to maximize results.

Quote:
and I did read about the one user who rolled and used tca, which I think is madness, who ended up with lots of issues.


Yes, she is among those who have had issues. Hers were compounded by doing acid peels during the same time period.
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Fri May 01, 2009 2:29 pm      Reply with quote
Barefootgirl wrote:
One more thing: needle size.

For collagen building, it seems as if the articles and board postings refer both to the 1mm and 1.5mm sized rollers.


They will both stimulate collagen.

Dr Fernandes started out using longer rollers but eventually started treating with 1mm as well, and as the bloody photos show, they are clearly penetrating the dermis and triggering wound healing.

I do think that deeper wrinkles and more severe scars might benefit from the 1.5mm, but I personally suspect that anything over that is just not necessary. Some have reported excellent results with a 2mm though, so YMMV.
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Fri May 01, 2009 4:13 pm      Reply with quote
Can someone direct me to the articles where they say 1.5 mm needles is the optimal length for dermarolling? My recollection was that Doctors giving professional treatments used between 2-3mm needles.
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Fri May 01, 2009 4:49 pm      Reply with quote
Coconut wrote:
Can someone direct me to the articles where they say 1.5 mm needles is the optimal length for dermarolling? My recollection was that Doctors giving professional treatments used between 2-3mm needles.


Coconut, this article discusses 1 mm vs 3 mm.
http://www.dermaconcepts.com/2004/environ1mmNeedling1.pdf

But, this thread has all articles regarding dermarolling for you to check out.

http://www.essentialdayspa.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=29860

I don't remember reading the 1.5 mm was the optimal length, but it has been a long time since I read through all the articles!

ETA: Oops. This is where Bethany asked Leibl about the 1.5 mm.

http://dermaroller.wordpress.com/2008/05/17/question-about-collagen-function/
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