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DermaRoller

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P Girl
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Fri May 01, 2009 5:09 pm      Reply with quote
The article about Environ 1 mm. microneedling says one should repeat the procedure no sooner than 1 week, but no longer than 3 weeks.

(http://www.dermaconcepts.com/2004/environ1mmNeedling1.pdf on page 3)

What could possibly be the reason for not waiting longer than 3 weeks to repeat the rolling? The way it's worded makes it seem like there's a window of time where optimum results are possible.

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Lowbrowscientist
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Sat May 02, 2009 9:48 am      Reply with quote
Yes, but initially he was also using 3mm needles and based on further research started advocating the use of 1mm instead. I'm not sure why he would have implied a small window for successful treatment, that is a good question, but I'm pretty sure that's not his stance anymore. It might be worth asking Dr Liebl on his blog, though, why that time span is, or at least *was* at one time, recommended.

This is why it's important to keep up with newer research as it becomes available, though it can certainly be tough to locate... for instance, I know that the docs supported several weeks between treatments but can't recall where I read it. I'll have to see if Bethany can locate it. Dr Liebl's blog is a great resource, and his sentiments (on infrequent treatments) is expressed there, along with other information that he makes available to us on an ongoing basis. Bethany posted the blog link several months back, and I reposted it a page or two ago - it's worth checking out, if you have questions.

ETA: This is a question I haven't really pursued myself, mostly because rolling more frequently than once a month is totally not an option for me anyway, since even with the "baby" rollers I get ridiculous amounts of redness and inflammation Neutral

P Girl wrote:
The article about Environ 1 mm. microneedling says one should repeat the procedure no sooner than 1 week, but no longer than 3 weeks.

(http://www.dermaconcepts.com/2004/environ1mmNeedling1.pdf on page 3)

What could possibly be the reason for not waiting longer than 3 weeks to repeat the rolling? The way it's worded makes it seem like there's a window of time where optimum results are possible.
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Sat May 02, 2009 9:53 am      Reply with quote
Lowbrowscientist wrote:
Dr Liebl's blog is a great resource, and his sentiments (on infrequent treatments) is expressed there, along with other information that he makes available to us on an ongoing basis.


He (Liebl) is also the one who does not recommend anything other than the smallest roller for home use, and he recommends using that 3-5 times a week. http://www.dermaroller.de/en/home-care-dermaroller/home-care-dermaroller.html
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Sat May 02, 2009 10:20 am      Reply with quote
This morning, I used the .15mm roller for the second time in a week (and second time ever) and was surprised to see small blood spots over my face - I did not think I was pushing in more aggressively nor rolling for a longer time..but cannot be sure, exactly.

I then applied the Skinmedica C serum - the sting was very sharp, on par with a chemical peel and my face is still red - I will be backing off for a few days.

For background purposes, I am a longtime user of retinoids and c serums.

BF
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Sat May 02, 2009 10:26 am      Reply with quote
rileygirl wrote:
Lowbrowscientist wrote:
Dr Liebl's blog is a great resource, and his sentiments (on infrequent treatments) is expressed there, along with other information that he makes available to us on an ongoing basis.


He (Liebl) is also the one who does not recommend anything other than the smallest roller for home use, and he recommends using that 3-5 times a week. http://www.dermaroller.de/en/home-care-dermaroller/home-care-dermaroller.html


Yes, he believes that the collagen induction treatments (with longer needles) should only be done by a clinician.

But if we can duplicate the proper protocol (VERY important, in my humble opinion, to minimize risk), and be diligent about disinfection, this is one area where I'm inclined to try it myself.
Lowbrowscientist
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Sat May 02, 2009 10:33 am      Reply with quote
Barefootgirl wrote:
This morning, I used the .15mm roller for the second time in a week (and second time ever) and was surprised to see small blood spots over my face - I did not think I was pushing in more aggressively nor rolling for a longer time..but cannot be sure, exactly.

I then applied the Skinmedica C serum - the sting was very sharp, on par with a chemical peel and my face is still red - I will be backing off for a few days.

For background purposes, I am a longtime user of retinoids and c serums.

BF


BF, it's interesting to note that so far, it seems that almost all of the long-term retinoid users have had more bleeding (or induced bleeding more easily, even if very little). Also, so far, these users are the ones getting the best results from the CIT treatments.

I'm not sure how this would apply to the small roller, but it may not be a bad thing. Backing off for a few days (and maybe using it somewhat less frequently in general) is probably a good idea, but when you do use it, you might very well get better results from it than most. In other words, you might be one of the lucky ones who sees dramatic improvement. Keep us posted! Smile
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Sat May 02, 2009 12:50 pm      Reply with quote
Barefootgirl wrote:
I then applied the Skinmedica C serum - the sting was very sharp, on par with a chemical peel and my face is still red - I will be backing off for a few days.

For background purposes, I am a longtime user of retinoids and c serums.

BF


BF, I wonder if you would consider using a different C for after your rolls? I am sure the sharp sting is due to the ascorbic acid in the skinmedica.

Lowbrow, I definitely agree with you on duplicating proper protocol and rolling for ourselves (though I would love to have a professional roll in all honesty!) Very Happy
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Sat May 02, 2009 7:57 pm      Reply with quote
Lowbrowscientist wrote:
Barefootgirl wrote:
This morning, I used the .15mm roller for the second time in a week (and second time ever) and was surprised to see small blood spots over my face - I did not think I was pushing in more aggressively nor rolling for a longer time..but cannot be sure, exactly.

I then applied the Skinmedica C serum - the sting was very sharp, on par with a chemical peel and my face is still red - I will be backing off for a few days.

For background purposes, I am a longtime user of retinoids and c serums.

BF


BF, it's interesting to note that so far, it seems that almost all of the long-term retinoid users have had more bleeding (or induced bleeding more easily, even if very little). Also, so far, these users are the ones getting the best results from the CIT treatments.

I'm not sure how this would apply to the small roller, but it may not be a bad thing. Backing off for a few days (and maybe using it somewhat less frequently in general) is probably a good idea, but when you do use it, you might very well get better results from it than most. In other words, you might be one of the lucky ones who sees dramatic improvement. Keep us posted! Smile


The fact seems to be that the rollers who are getting blood are often the ones seeing long term results. This blood factor can probably be compared to the platelet treatment mentioned in the article..."Microneedling Platlet Rich Plasma" In this study they are using this treatment with the smaller needles and getting results....After all, we have platelets in our blood. They "are irregularly-shaped, colorless bodies that are present in blood. Their sticky surface lets them, along with other substances, form clots to stop bleeding. When bleeding from a wound suddenly occurs, the platelets gather at the wound and attempt to block the blood flow. The mineral calcium, vitamin K, and a protein called fibrinogen help the platelets form a clot" Again maybe the blood factor is the key!!!
P Girl
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Sat May 02, 2009 8:15 pm      Reply with quote
I've been rolling since January for stretchmarks and I have fantastic results and I rarely bleed (and I roll very aggressively).

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Lowbrowscientist
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Sat May 02, 2009 8:25 pm      Reply with quote
vivre wrote:
The fact seems to be that the rollers who are getting blood are often the ones seeing long term results. This blood factor can probably be compared to the platelet treatment mentioned in the article..."Microneedling Platlet Rich Plasma" In this study they are using this treatment with the smaller needles and getting results....After all, we have platelets in our blood.


I totally agree, I think it is exactly the same mechanism going on here. But, aren't they actually injecting the plasma? Or am I thinking of a different article? If this is the treatment where they *inject* the patient's own plasma, I think that for home dermaroller users, we would still need longer needles, because we have to puncture the dermis to get some blood flow. We don't have the option of just injecting it from the surface.

I am definitely on board with shorter needles, though, lol... I already have my 1.5 so I'm going to use it, but if I lose a needle or have to replace it sooner than expected, I may go with a 1mm instead.


Quote:
When bleeding from a wound suddenly occurs, the platelets gather at the wound and attempt to block the blood flow. The mineral calcium, vitamin K, and a protein called fibrinogen help the platelets form a clot"


Yes, you are describing the wound healing cascade, and that's exactly why dermarolling with 1mm or longer needles works for collagen induction, according to Drs Liebl and Fernandes.

I do think that others using shorter needles (that don't draw blood), and possibly those who just don't see much or any blood even with longer needles/aggressive treatments can still get excellent cosmetic improvement due to the thickening of the epidermis. But, I think you need to be rolling on a fairly regular basis to maintain that, as opposed to the CIT treatments, which can eventually be reduced to once or twice a year for maintenance.
Lowbrowscientist
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Sat May 02, 2009 8:30 pm      Reply with quote
P Girl wrote:
I've been rolling since January for stretchmarks and I have fantastic results and I rarely bleed (and I roll very aggressively).


That's great news for those who don't see a lot of blood even with aggressive rolling. I do wonder if body skin is different, though? I think most skin on the body is thicker than facial skin and can perhaps be treated slightly differently (and may respond differently).

I usually just refer to facial skin by default.

I wonder if the great results you're getting are also from the epidermis thickening up, in addition to new collagen? This is a benefit I'd love to experience myself, but alas, even my little .25mm gives me so much swelling/redness/peeling that I can't use it often enough for that Neutral
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Sat May 02, 2009 8:41 pm      Reply with quote
Lowbrowscientist wrote:
P Girl wrote:
I've been rolling since January for stretchmarks and I have fantastic results and I rarely bleed (and I roll very aggressively).


That's great news for those who don't see a lot of blood even with aggressive rolling. I do wonder if body skin is different, though? I think most skin on the body is thicker than facial skin and can perhaps be treated slightly differently (and may respond differently).

I usually just refer to facial skin by default.

I wonder if the great results you're getting are also from the epidermis thickening up, in addition to new collagen? This is a benefit I'd love to experience myself, but alas, even my little .25mm gives me so much swelling/redness/peeling that I can't use it often enough for that Neutral


I've rolled my face once and I didn't really bleed there either. But I do think the body skin is very different than the face. I just think it's important that people who are new to this know that they don't need to abuse themselves (anymore than we're already doing!) with their rollers just trying to make themselves bleed. LOL

I can definitely tell that my skin is somewhat thicker. For example, there's an area on my boobs that was so thin that I could see little red veins EVERYWHERE, but I've rolled the area twice and it's much less visible and the skin is much less crepey.

Areas where I think the skin is somewhat thicker or tougher naturally (like the abdomen) are very stubborn and slow in showing results. It's a very interesting process really.

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vivre
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Sat May 02, 2009 9:09 pm      Reply with quote
Lowbrowscientist wrote:
vivre wrote:
The fact seems to be that the rollers who are getting blood are often the ones seeing long term results. This blood factor can probably be compared to the platelet treatment mentioned in the article..."Microneedling Platlet Rich Plasma" In this study they are using this treatment with the smaller needles and getting results....After all, we have platelets in our blood.


I totally agree, I think it is exactly the same mechanism going on here. But, aren't they actually injecting the plasma? Or am I thinking of a different article? If this is the treatment where they *inject* the patient's own plasma, I think that for home dermaroller users, we would still need longer needles, because we have to puncture the dermis to get some blood flow. We don't have the option of just injecting it from the surface.

I am definitely on board with shorter needles, though, lol... I already have my 1.5 so I'm going to use it, but if I lose a needle or have to replace it sooner than expected, I may go with a 1mm instead.


Quote:
When bleeding from a wound suddenly occurs, the platelets gather at the wound and attempt to block the blood flow. The mineral calcium, vitamin K, and a protein called fibrinogen help the platelets form a clot"


Yes, you are describing the wound healing cascade, and that's exactly why dermarolling with 1mm or longer needles works for collagen induction, according to Drs Liebl and Fernandes.

I do think that others using shorter needles (that don't draw blood), and possibly those who just don't see much or any blood even with longer needles/aggressive treatments can still get excellent cosmetic improvement due to the thickening of the epidermis. But, I think you need to be rolling on a fairly regular basis to maintain that, as opposed to the CIT treatments, which can eventually be reduced to once or twice a year for maintenance.


From what I understand they are both using it topically and injecting it as well...However I may have misunderstood...If you are curious you can read the article here:

http://www.dermalintegrity.com/newsmedia/micro.html
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Sun May 03, 2009 9:10 am      Reply with quote
<<<BF, I wonder if you would consider using a different C for after your rolls? I am sure the sharp sting is due to the ascorbic acid in the skinmedica.

Yes, that is what I am looking at right now. The rest of my protocol is coming together, but I am still looking at appropriate protocols - for both dermarolling with the short needle rollers and whether the same topicals would be appropriate for use with the longer needles.

I find it interesting that only some sellers of rollers offer topicals.

The name of the game in the beauty industry is selling topicals, many of which seem to offer limited value.

In an odd way, it is almost refreshing.

I would love to know which A and C formulations others use - I know some use the 302 products, but beyond those...

I recall article authors referring alternatively to the Environ products and retinyl palmitate.

BF
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Sun May 03, 2009 9:11 am      Reply with quote
oops sorry, I mean appropriate *topicals*

BF
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Sun May 03, 2009 12:28 pm      Reply with quote
Is there a favorite size for the product penetrating roller?
I am about ready to get mine.
I don't think I will get longer than the 1.5 for the other one...I don't see why they would use longer if that is the depth of the skin. Unless its for really thick scars, or maybe trying to break up cellulite?

I hope it shrinks the skin...I have so many stretch marks, I have twice as much skin as I need. Mine are about 26 years old.
I can't believe I am going to do this. AT first it seemed like the wackiest thing ever, but after reading about it, it makes perfect sense.
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Sun May 03, 2009 5:19 pm      Reply with quote
I want desperately to roll away my spider veins...I've read that vitamin K causes the blood to clot in the veins and then the vein closes up and dissolves...

I would like to apply a vitamin K cream after dermarolling (1.0 needle roller) along with the vitamin A and C...does anyone see any problems has anyone tried using the vitamin K when rolling? The creams that I have seen are using a 1% vitamin K.

Any comments or suggestions are appreciated!
Mary
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Sun May 03, 2009 5:27 pm      Reply with quote
I am going to be buying another 1.5mm roller... I will use my current one for my stomach and the new one on my arms.

I have read through the discount thread and decided to buy from either http://dr-roller.eu or http://derma-rollers.com... but I was just wondering if anyone here has ordered from either and what was your experience overall?
Then I can decide which one to go with.

dr-roller.eu 1.5mm roller works out at about £41.60 (with free shipping and 10% discount) and the derma-rollers.com 1.5mm roller will be £55. So I could save myself just over £13... but if peoples experience has been good with derma-rollers then I will order from there.
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Sun May 03, 2009 7:29 pm      Reply with quote
Kay2008 wrote:
I am going to be buying another 1.5mm roller... I will use my current one for my stomach and the new one on my arms.

I have read through the discount thread and decided to buy from either http://dr-roller.eu or http://derma-rollers.com... but I was just wondering if anyone here has ordered from either and what was your experience overall?
Then I can decide which one to go with.


I posted in that thread about my experience with Kaia at dr-roller.eu -- she was great. I'm in the USA and she ships from overseas, so it might be a couple weeks until you receive it, depending on your location. But as I recall, she sends a tracking number, so you can keep track of where it is and how soon it will arrive. Jack is also excellent, and if you're in the US the rollers will arrive faster. His info is on the very first page (he might be more expensive though; I can't remember anymore).
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Mon May 04, 2009 2:08 am      Reply with quote
Kay2008 wrote:
I am going to be buying another 1.5mm roller... I will use my current one for my stomach and the new one on my arms.

I have read through the discount thread and decided to buy from either http://dr-roller.eu or http://derma-rollers.com... but I was just wondering if anyone here has ordered from either and what was your experience overall?
Then I can decide which one to go with.

dr-roller.eu 1.5mm roller works out at about £41.60 (with free shipping and 10% discount) and the derma-rollers.com 1.5mm roller will be £55. So I could save myself just over £13... but if peoples experience has been good with derma-rollers then I will order from there.


Hi Kay, I ordered my rollers from derma-rollers.com and had no issue and fast delivery, infact I ordered in the am and had them the next morning. I ordered them over the phone and got a little discount. They were very good only issue I have is their exagurated photo demo on stretchmarks on their website which can't be true and by that I mean to get those results in 4 weeks. Elle
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Mon May 04, 2009 7:29 am      Reply with quote
MaryClaire wrote:
I want desperately to roll away my spider veins...I've read that vitamin K causes the blood to clot in the veins and then the vein closes up and dissolves...

I would like to apply a vitamin K cream after dermarolling (1.0 needle roller) along with the vitamin A and C...does anyone see any problems has anyone tried using the vitamin K when rolling? The creams that I have seen are using a 1% vitamin K.

Any comments or suggestions are appreciated!
Mary


brilliant idea! please let us know how it goes.

I was putting ozone (oxygenating gel) on a suspicious spot on my nose and it wasn't helping. I then decided to dermaroll and put the gel on and it worked almost immediately.

Man-- Gotta love this stuff!

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Kay2008
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Mon May 04, 2009 10:17 am      Reply with quote
Lowbrowscientist wrote:
Kay2008 wrote:
I am going to be buying another 1.5mm roller... I will use my current one for my stomach and the new one on my arms.

I have read through the discount thread and decided to buy from either http://dr-roller.eu or http://derma-rollers.com... but I was just wondering if anyone here has ordered from either and what was your experience overall?
Then I can decide which one to go with.


I posted in that thread about my experience with Kaia at dr-roller.eu -- she was great. I'm in the USA and she ships from overseas, so it might be a couple weeks until you receive it, depending on your location. But as I recall, she sends a tracking number, so you can keep track of where it is and how soon it will arrive. Jack is also excellent, and if you're in the US the rollers will arrive faster. His info is on the very first page (he might be more expensive though; I can't remember anymore).


Hi,
Thank you for replying. Kaia does sound like she offers a great service... also they work out so much cheaper! When I bought my roller from Nova clinic a year ago it was about £50 - £60 but since the exchange rate has gone bad it will work out at about £80!

I'm in the UK so if it's coming from the EU it shouldn't take too long hopefully. The free shipping is great too! and there's a 10% discount at the moment for EDS users! Very Happy

Elle2009 wrote:
Kay2008 wrote:
I am going to be buying another 1.5mm roller... I will use my current one for my stomach and the new one on my arms.

I have read through the discount thread and decided to buy from either http://dr-roller.eu or http://derma-rollers.com... but I was just wondering if anyone here has ordered from either and what was your experience overall?
Then I can decide which one to go with.

dr-roller.eu 1.5mm roller works out at about £41.60 (with free shipping and 10% discount) and the derma-rollers.com 1.5mm roller will be £55. So I could save myself just over £13... but if peoples experience has been good with derma-rollers then I will order from there.


Hi Kay, I ordered my rollers from derma-rollers.com and had no issue and fast delivery, infact I ordered in the am and had them the next morning. I ordered them over the phone and got a little discount. They were very good only issue I have is their exagurated photo demo on stretchmarks on their website which can't be true and by that I mean to get those results in 4 weeks. Elle


Hi Elle,

I like the fact that these are UK based! and are cheaper than Nova Clinics.
Are their rollers the Dr.Roller brand?

I agree, I posted about those photos on here a good few pages back. But since I posted about it, there has been so much useful info posted on here about rolling daily and how bad it can be etc etc... I wont be following their instrucions now. But I will admit, after seeing those photos I was tempted to roll daily... that's why I asked if anyone knew if they were true or not.

I'm just not sure if those pictures are 100% genuine... those dramatic results in just 4 weeks? hmm. Or it could just be a case of inflammation... that looks like results Laughing
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Mon May 04, 2009 12:16 pm      Reply with quote
Quote:
Hi Elle,

I like the fact that these are UK based! and are cheaper than Nova Clinics.
Are their rollers the Dr.Roller brand?

I agree, I posted about those photos on here a good few pages back. But since I posted about it, there has been so much useful info posted on here about rolling daily and how bad it can be etc etc... I wont be following their instrucions now. But I will admit, after seeing those photos I was tempted to roll daily... that's why I asked if anyone knew if they were true or not.

I'm just not sure if those pictures are 100% genuine... those dramatic results in just 4 weeks? hmm. Or it could just be a case of inflammation... that looks like results Laughing


Hi Kay, yes they are the dr roller's. I am very pleased with mine (if that is possible with these torture tools) its a solid little tool.

Re pic's on their website I did call the company and asked them if they were genuine and the chap I spoke to said they were I am a bit doubtful but he did seem genuine and said that he saw the woman in person and the stomach looks like the last pic and you can see something like lines in the skin when you pull the skin but that was it. Not sure what to think but I am of the opinion that younger people will get better results then older people due to the increased collagen production naturally at a younger age. Elle
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Mon May 04, 2009 4:36 pm      Reply with quote
Hi,

Just popping on very quickly to ask this question...

I have just been reading through the dr-roller.eu website and came across a little info that caught my eye.

Quote:
It is common and most recommended that with skin roller with needle length 1.0 mm or longer to have four to six treatments at approximately six-weeks intervals. The level of improvement rises with each treatment, but it may take up to three months in some cases to see the improvement. During the intervals between treatments, a 0.15 mm or 0.25 mm needle length roller should be used to stimulate skin care products absorbtion to skin


So with all the discussion on here about not using 1.5mm roller daily, or even weekly as it can be bad... what about the above? Using the 1.5mm every 4 - 6 weeks, and then using a 0.15mm or 0.25mm needle during those 4 - 6 weeks to help product penetration?
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Mon May 04, 2009 7:42 pm      Reply with quote
Hey, new to this forum.

Just purchased a 0.3 roller from ClearSkinCare in Australia on the recommendation of a friend. Used it for the first time last night with Dermalogica multivitamin power concentrate and woke up this morning looking about 5 years younger - have had comments about it all day. Will keep using the roller daily but I was wondering if anyone has tried it with the MAP-15 regenerator - worried it may be a bit too astringent for post roller use. I have been scouring the forum for any comments on this subject but could find none - does anyone know of any authoritative articles on good post roller products?

Would appreciate any help.
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