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DermaRoller

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neondaze
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Thu Nov 26, 2009 2:44 pm      Reply with quote
This Is Miranda - I can't remember exactly where I read about Fernandes and the retinyl palmitate, it might have been in some links that Barefootgirl posted. But yes, as Rileygirl also points out, his Environ products all use A and C derivatives, and that particular quote is talking about how to prep your skin for a few weeks beforehand. I know this thread is very long but it is really worth having a bit of a read through some of the studies etc.

Rollergal - I'm afraid I don't know how to do a DIY version of RP. Perhaps do a search. I'm sure someone would have tried to give it a go at some point!
EC413
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Thu Nov 26, 2009 3:23 pm      Reply with quote
Ok, I think a dermaroller is what I want, LOL.

I was redirected here to ask some questions.

I'm in my 20's, and I have (on both cheeks) little indent scars. Some seem deep and are visible and others are more shallow and only visible in certain light. Basically, they drive me crazy.

Will using a dermaroller help soften the scars? What one should I get? 1mm, 1.5mm?

Also, when dermarolling, do you simply let the needles roll on TOP of the skin? Or does the whole needle actually completely stab into the skin? It sounds painful, if that's the case.

It kind of scares me, to think about stabbing my skin with needles, but I did some research and found that this is probably one of the best ways to stimulate collagen and repair skin.

Will dermarolling cause ANY new scarring? Will the holes be visible after treatment? Is bleeding common?

I'm trying to think of other questions...thank you to anyone that can help me out!

I think this might be the cure for my little scars that don't wanna go away!
jjbeacham
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Thu Nov 26, 2009 3:23 pm      Reply with quote
Rollergal, this is a link to Skinactives' Retinyl Acetate, which costs $4.50 and is enough for 4 ounces of base cream or sea kelp bioferment at a 2% formulation. That would be quite a bit of product for very little expenditure, and I'm sure it would work just as well as retinyl palmitate. I found retinyl palmitate in an oil base on eBay for about $18, including shipping; it's a 2 oz. bottle.

http://www.skinactives.com/product/detail.aspx?prodID=86

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This is Miranda
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Thu Nov 26, 2009 3:42 pm      Reply with quote
neondaze wrote:
This Is Miranda - I can't remember exactly where I read about Fernandes and the retinyl palmitate, it might have been in some links that Barefootgirl posted. But yes, as Rileygirl also points out, his Environ products all use A and C derivatives, and that particular quote is talking about how to prep your skin for a few weeks beforehand. I know this thread is very long but it is really worth having a bit of a read through some of the studies etc.


You may not think it or believe it but I have read through this mammoth thread and the DR for stretchmarks thread plus threads on different forums - I like to do my homework before embarking on skin products or tools - this I learnt the hard way (my skin was almost ruined by a professional's regime). Whichever thread you read, throughout it has been clear, everyone's opinions are different.
You may have missed the second Dr. F. quote I posted, which is for post rolling, he doesn't specify which type of Vit A so for me the assumption is he's referring to his previous Vit A list. I don't remember reading any advice from Dr. F about never using Retin-A, only ones saying he prefers his own line of Environ products (Barefootgirl, sometime in Aug).

Here is an interview from Dr. F where he talks about his own use of Retin-A (before his Environ company was set up). It's because of this, I believe when Dr. F talks about his preferences for Environ products, it is not that he is saying Tretinoin is detrimental.

"Because of the positive effects that I had noticed on my patients whom I had treated for acne, I started using vitamin A acid (retinoic) on my own facial skin in 1982, just before my 40th birthday. By 1986, I had uncovered all the positive facts about vitamin A and the antioxidants and I started to promote the use of Tretinoin for the prevention of skin cancer. Eventually in 1987, I wrote a letter to the South African Medical Journal to urge doctors to protect their patients by using Tretinoin. That letter was not published for more than a year but, after a heated debate between myself and the Department of Dermatology at the University of Cape Town, it was eventually published in July 1989.

At that time, people laughed when I spoke about free radicals as they were then not the household word that they have now become. Meanwhile, I had approached two South African cosmetic companies and advised them to make creams using vitamin A and free radical scavengers. They were not interested so, initially, I used to prepare vitamin A creams myself in my kitchen! I hunted for a chemist and we then created the creams which I offered to my patients (from 1988 onwards). The creams became so popular that people made appointments to see me just to obtain them. And it was then that I decided to start a company to sell the creams. I truly believed that these creams would keep people’s skins healthy, in fact, I believed that these creams were essential to keep their skins healthy. "

Unless I read something more specific or see something bad on myself, I will continue to use Retin-A with my DR.

Lastly, there's no escaping the fact that my stomach stretchmarks are responding very well with the DR and Retin A. It's been nearly 2 months since I started and two rolls later, I have small patches of smooth skin growing through. I am quite frankly amazed and over the moon!!
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Thu Nov 26, 2009 3:47 pm      Reply with quote
EC413 wrote:
Ok, I think a dermaroller is what I want, LOL.

I'm trying to think of other questions...thank you to anyone that can help me out!


Hi EC413

Take a look at this article; it will answer many questions! (Although the cases in it are more extreme than yours.)

http://www.dermogenesis.com/roll-cit/Clinics_of_N_Am_2005.pdf

Smile
neondaze
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Thu Nov 26, 2009 4:59 pm      Reply with quote
Hi Miranda, as I said I'm no expert, I just was under the impression that Retin A shouldn't be used directly after a roll - but of course I could be wrong!
Best of luck to you!
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Thu Nov 26, 2009 6:10 pm      Reply with quote
neondaze wrote:
Hi Miranda, as I said I'm no expert, I just was under the impression that Retin A shouldn't be used directly after a roll - but of course I could be wrong!
Best of luck to you!


I am not an expert, either, neondaze, but my thinking is definitely no to penetrating Retin A. We do not know how safe it is to penetrate Retin A, but this is just my opinion.

Miranda - here are a few things from Dr. Fernandes that you might find interesting.

"please remember that retinoic acid (Retin-A) cannot be stored so whatever you put on your skin and is absorbed, if it cannot be absorbed into the cells becomes an irritant and so on the nights when you not using it your levels are dropping. The advantage of using retinyl palmitate daily is that all excess is stored in the cell and when you don’t use it for a night or two, then the levels can be kept up by the stored vitamin A. Retinyl palmitate is also a photo-protective agent and can and should be used both morning and evening. Because retinoic acid is a photosensitiser, it can only be used at night."

And this:

"I naturally recommend Environ. When I formulated it I tried to make it the most effective cosmetic product in the world. I believe it works with the physiology of the skin and that’s why people who use it generally can be distinguished because of a healthy glow (not the glow of alpha hydroxyacids). I also did all the research on needling with it and our experience shows that the molecules we use are safe."
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Fri Nov 27, 2009 9:30 am      Reply with quote
neondaze wrote:
Hi Miranda, as I said I'm no expert, I just was under the impression that Retin A shouldn't be used directly after a roll - but of course I could be wrong!
Best of luck to you!


Hi Neondaze - I'm definitely no expert either - I'm just relying on other peoples opinions like yours! It all helps me and others to make up their minds!

My dogged belief in Retin-A is because of my experience with my 5yr old post-pregnancy SM's using Retin-A after rolling, which has been nothing short of miraculous. Anyone with SM's will know how hard they are to shift. At the moment I have small patches of smooth skin growing through - which is why I decided to DR with Retin A on my face, but at a milder level. I do think Dr. F was a big fan of Tretinoin until he made his own range but then I'm sure he made his own range knowing exactly what was needed (I respect him and his views more than any other plastic surgeon).


Rileygirl, your quotes are hugely interesting - this I must have missed if they were already on here. I'm a big fan of Dr. F's stance against AHA's, would I be right in thinking his products are anti-exfoliation? Or just over-exfoliation? Therefore with his Vit A products, there's less flaky skin after?

rileygirl wrote:
Miranda - here are a few things from Dr. Fernandes that you might find interesting.

"please remember that retinoic acid (Retin-A) cannot be stored so whatever you put on your skin and is absorbed, if it cannot be absorbed into the cells becomes an irritant and so on the nights when you not using it your levels are dropping. The advantage of using retinyl palmitate daily is that all excess is stored in the cell and when you don’t use it for a night or two, then the levels can be kept up by the stored vitamin A. Retinyl palmitate is also a photo-protective agent and can and should be used both morning and evening. Because retinoic acid is a photosensitiser, it can only be used at night."

And this:

"I naturally recommend Environ. When I formulated it I tried to make it the most effective cosmetic product in the world. I believe it works with the physiology of the skin and that’s why people who use it generally can be distinguished because of a healthy glow (not the glow of alpha hydroxyacids). I also did all the research on needling with it and our experience shows that the molecules we use are safe."
KrazyKatLadyAUE
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Fri Nov 27, 2009 10:24 am      Reply with quote
Hi,

Has anyone here used Avocado Oil to prepare the skin for rolling? I have heard it is rich in Vitamin A, although I haven't found any info on how much Vitamin A it contains, and whether or not it is the type of Vitamin A that would be useful for prepping the skin for deeper rolls.

Thanks!

KKL
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Fri Nov 27, 2009 10:24 am      Reply with quote
This is Miranda wrote:
Rileygirl, your quotes are hugely interesting - this I must have missed if they were already on here. I'm a big fan of Dr. F's stance against AHA's, would I be right in thinking his products are anti-exfoliation? Or just over-exfoliation? Therefore with his Vit A products, there's less flaky skin after?



These were from a personal email to me, Miranda, so you did not miss them! Sorry, I should have clarified.

I don't know his feelings on AHA's, though I believe he does have an AHA line in his products, so I don't think he is against them?
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Fri Nov 27, 2009 10:47 am      Reply with quote
KrazyKatLadyAUE wrote:
Hi,

Has anyone here used Avocado Oil to prepare the skin for rolling? I have heard it is rich in Vitamin A, although I haven't found any info on how much Vitamin A it contains, and whether or not it is the type of Vitamin A that would be useful for prepping the skin for deeper rolls.

Thanks!

KKL


Haven't tried avocado oil for rolling but I was disappointed with it as a skincare oil (switched to hempseed oil which is brilliant).

Apparently Rosehip Oil is also rich in Vit A; I have an overnight serum which contains this (and omega 3 & vit E) and my sensitive skin has liked it.
neondaze
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Fri Nov 27, 2009 2:48 pm      Reply with quote
I guess the thing to remember is that Retin A / tretinoin is Retinoic Acid. So like ascorbic acid should be avoided on skin that has been wounded. I think it is fine to use Retin A after 5-7 days, if you have done a roll with longer needles but anything sooner is probably not such a great idea.

Miranda you seem to be very interested in not over-exfoliating and thereby inadvertently causing more damage to the skin (as I am too! I don't exfoliate at all, other than use a microfibre cloth. Everybody seems to use acids these days though!) You might want to take a look at the first 302 thread which contains a lot of information from Dr Huber about acids, over-exfoliation, and the problems of using too many products to prop the skin up. Be warned, it is another monster thread! But there is a heap of interesting (and to some people, controversial) information in there. Dr Huber's posts are in blue (the second 302 thread doesn't have his input)
302 Skincare Part 1: Intro to a Non-Acid Regimen http://www.essentialdayspa.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=28855
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Fri Nov 27, 2009 4:37 pm      Reply with quote
breezy42, yes I like the package which can hold the roller on air for drying after cleaning Smile I bought emla finally from pharmacy yesterday. its a bit expensive. $70aud for 30gr. i hope it will really numb my skin.


jjbeacham, thanks for the link. I actually want to use other than retin-a because I'm afraid to use retin-a with rolling. For face I might use something milder. but I will consider retin-a for my SM. Since they're hidden under my clothes, even if I get bad reaction at least people won't see it hehe..

for Retinyl Acetate, is it ok to mix it with the vit-c serum? since i'm going to be making vit-c serum which contain the sea kelp bio. or is it better to make separate serum of the Retinyl Acetate and apply it at different time after rolling?
rollergal
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Fri Nov 27, 2009 5:04 pm      Reply with quote
Yesterday when I went to pharmacy to buy emla, the lady asking me what would I use it for. She's a bit hesitant to give it to me. I couldn't tell her "to pierce my skin with the tattoo needle", so I told her I want to wax my facial hair. And then she said emla would be too strong for face. Then I quickly said "but is it ok for hand and leg?" She said yes hehe... So I finally can buy it, I was so scared she wouldn't hand it to me ;P
This is Miranda
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Sat Nov 28, 2009 1:44 am      Reply with quote
neondaze wrote:
I guess the thing to remember is that Retin A / tretinoin is Retinoic Acid. So like ascorbic acid should be avoided on skin that has been wounded. I think it is fine to use Retin A after 5-7 days, if you have done a roll with longer needles but anything sooner is probably not such a great idea.

Miranda you seem to be very interested in not over-exfoliating and thereby inadvertently causing more damage to the skin (as I am too! I don't exfoliate at all, other than use a microfibre cloth. Everybody seems to use acids these days though!) You might want to take a look at the first 302 thread which contains a lot of information from Dr Huber about acids, over-exfoliation, and the problems of using too many products to prop the skin up. Be warned, it is another monster thread! But there is a heap of interesting (and to some people, controversial) information in there. Dr Huber's posts are in blue (the second 302 thread doesn't have his input)
302 Skincare Part 1: Intro to a Non-Acid Regimen http://www.essentialdayspa.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=28855


I've never taken a look at this thread, which is a shame as it would have been a big help 6 months ago (a dermatologist stripped my epidermis with AHA's, peels, microdermabrasion and aged me by 10years in 4 months, her theory being it would reveal my young, fresh skin. It revealed my lines and noticeably thinner skin). Everything I do now is to return my skin to how it was in April.
Surprisingly I've been met with alot of opposition on EDS when warning about over-exfoliation - so many people swear by daily exfoliating products.
I thought the 302 thread was just about a brand.... I will definitely read (or skim) through it - many thanks for the tip!
You are right that Retin-A is acidic - it's my only acidic product that I use once a week with vit c powder and Hempseed oil. I've only used it once in conjunction with a DR on my face (last Sunday)- and the reaction is more extreme than I expected (but I also rolled harder than I should have. Duh!). I just put alot of faith in Dr. F's guidance on DR and I've never seen him warning not to use Retinoic acid. Maybe he designed his own range to address his desire for something better to work with DR'ing but doesn't want to dismiss tretinoin completely. I will err on caution and not use it on my face again (unless next week I look 10 years younger again!) but until I see direct wording like the ascorbic acid warning, I will continue to use it after rolling my SM's. The results are too good for me to stop.

Rollergal wrote:
I will consider retin-a for my SM. Since they're hidden under my clothes, even if I get bad reaction at least people won't see it

Definitely give it a try on your SM's (there's a great 'Dermarolling for Stretchmarks" thread, full of info and not too long), I genuinely can't believe my results and check them everyday - but the good patches are still there and growing!! I only rolled my left side so I know it's the DR (combined with the debated Retin A). I used Retin A on its own for most of last year but it didn't make any difference, but maybe I've prepped my skin very well which is why the result has shown through very quickly? Now that's something I hadn't thought of til now. Idea
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Sun Nov 29, 2009 3:42 am      Reply with quote
This is Miranda wrote:
jeanleemarquis wrote:
I was wondering whether someone who has experience and had success with the dermaroller would perhaps consider starting up a new thread with rolling protocols, with tips such as where to buy, what size to buy in order address what purpose, rolling pattern, how hard to press, how often to roll, whether or not one should see blood spots, what products to use with the roller, what to expect immediately afterwards... this thread is just getting so difficult to navigate!

I've used the 1.5mm dermaroller 4x since August (once a month rolls), using no numbing cream, pressing medium-hard I'd say, and applying .025% retin-a afterwards... and I haven't really seen any changes, certainly nothing like the CIT pictures that I've seen online! Still, I'm planning on rolling twice more, (once in December, once in January) and hoping that the changes will come, perhaps more gradually?

Immediately after the roll I appear a bit red & swollen, which lasts until the next day for me. The day after that my skin starts to appear very nice, as though I've had a nice facial... however, the effect fades within a few days.

My skin is not really in bad condition, but I am hoping to address some hyperpigementation on my cheeks. Still, so far, not much.

(By the way Miranda, I had suspected that you were probably very attractive, and the picture you posted-- without your eyes-- has proven me correct!)


Hi JLM,
Thank you for your kind compliment, unfortunately I didn't look like this 2 days later after doing the dermaroll but I'm getting there again!
It sounds like you roll much the same way as me (1.5mm, no numbing, med hard) only differences are that I apply 0.1% retin-a after and remain red-ish for 2-3 days. I still have tight, tingly skin 4 days after my roll.
I'm intrigued that you haven't had any results. Are you only addressing hyperpigmentation? Have you not found your skin more plump or less lines (if you have any?).
It's good to hear the results from someone who has been doing it a few months. I have so much faith in DR'ing that I may be putting too much hope into it.


Well, based on my own results so far, I've been a bit disappointed... then again, it supposedly takes up to a year to see results.

Yes, my main concern is hyperpigmentation on my cheeks, but of course I've rolled my entire face not just the pigmented areas, vertical, horizontal, diagonal both ways. And unfortunately, no, I would say that I really haven't seen any improvement here since I've begun that I would attribute the the dermaroller. And I can't really say that I've seen any other changes in regard to my skin that I would attribute to the dermaroller-- no change in the slightly enlarged pores on my cheeks around my nose, plumpness, etc.

However, since embarking on a slew of other things to help improve my skin & keep aging at bay (MSM mega mega-doses, green smoothies, a change in diet with more veg, facial exercise, and now bone masage!) I have seen positive changes in my skin. The reason why I attribute the changes to these factors is because I've seen a marked improvement and almost immediately after starting these things.

From what I understand, new collagen takes about 21-28 days to establish itself after dermarolling, so it could be that what I'm seeing is the delayed result the prior rolls, but as I said, when I incorporated the other changes into my regime, the effects were immediate, like next day.

(I wonder if the reason why the dermaroller hasn't lived up to my expectations has to do with that I already have adequate collagen reserves in my skin-- for example, with both of my pregnancies, I did not get a single stretchmark, even though I gained about 40 pounds both times.)

I'm still going to go ahead with a few more sessions of rolling, however, and see how it goes. It can't hurt, right? Oh, let me take that back-- it *can*!
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Sun Nov 29, 2009 4:31 am      Reply with quote
jeanleemarquis wrote:

Yes, my main concern is hyperpigmentation on my cheeks...


JLM, I've just posted something on the dermarolling for prod. pene. thread about rolling and hyperpigmentation (in short, met a woman with her own clinic which does DR'ing, but she hasn't found anything to help her own cheek melasma).

It would be good if Rileygirl could tell us if Dr. F believes in treating hyperpig. with the dermaroller?
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Sun Nov 29, 2009 7:23 pm      Reply with quote
This is Miranda wrote:
jeanleemarquis wrote:

Yes, my main concern is hyperpigmentation on my cheeks...


JLM, I've just posted something on the dermarolling for prod. pene. thread about rolling and hyperpigmentation (in short, met a woman with her own clinic which does DR'ing, but she hasn't found anything to help her own cheek melasma).

It would be good if Rileygirl could tell us if Dr. F believes in treating hyperpig. with the dermaroller?


Thanks Miranda-- to go a bit OT, I have to say that although I feel that the dermaroller hasn't done much re the age spots on my cheeks, I *do* feel that the mega doses of MSM that I've been taking have had an effect. Since I've been mega dosing-- 3 tsp AM, 3 tsp PM, my spots do seem lighter. I will update if they go away completely-- my goal!
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Mon Nov 30, 2009 10:02 am      Reply with quote
jeanleemarquis wrote:

this is miranda wrote:
JLM, I've just posted something on the dermarolling for prod. pene. thread about rolling and hyperpigmentation (in short, met a woman with her own clinic which does DR'ing, but she hasn't found anything to help her own cheek melasma).


Thanks Miranda-- to go a bit OT, I have to say that although I feel that the dermaroller hasn't done much re the age spots on my cheeks, I *do* feel that the mega doses of MSM that I've been taking have had an effect. Since I've been mega dosing-- 3 tsp AM, 3 tsp PM, my spots do seem lighter. I will update if they go away completely-- my goal!


Hi Jean, I asked this same beauty clinic woman about supplements as I worry about overloading the liver with vits & minerals. She said MSM was brilliant because it was sulphuric which is good for the liver. She did also say it has anti-inflammatory effects which may go against what we look to achieve in dermarolling.

I take just 800mg a day but after reading your tip, I may just roll the ball out and up it to 1.6g!!
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Mon Nov 30, 2009 10:46 am      Reply with quote
Hi Miranda,

Just take it *slow* if you decide to increase your dosage. There's an older EDS thread with more details on MSM-- called something like "I lost body fat & have gotten tighter skin with MSM"-- lots of very good info there. Mega dose side effects-- while not harmful-- can include headaches, gastric upset, & insomnia. I am currently experiencing the insomnia on many nights, although strangely enough, I am more or less able to function pretty well the next day. I have also had some gastric upset too, although I'm fine now.

But I have to say, I can scarcely believe my eyes-- I think it's *working* Very Happy I just want to make sure that it's completely gone before I make a final evaluation-- I've come about this far before (Obagi) and then been disappointed that there was no further progress.

Also, there is someone named Vanessa Wild who has written about megadosing with MSM and combatting hyperpigmentation, although apparently, her evidence is pretty questionable (small group, culled online, who self-reported on their progress).

Sorry to go OT everyone! Very Happy
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Mon Nov 30, 2009 11:05 am      Reply with quote
Sorry- last word on the MSM--

Miranda, just to reiterate, I take 6 teaspoons of MSM powder a day-- 3 in the AM, 3 in the PM. Since a 1/2 tsp is about 2500mg MSM, according to my calculations, I'm taking about *gulp* 30 grams of MSM a day. This is the dosage that I'm finding effective in treating my age spots. In lower dosages, I have not found that taking MSM has made much of a difference in treating this condition. However, MSM is very safe-- no toxic effects have been in found in humans taking 1 gram per kilogram body weight for 30 days, and whatever MSM your body does not need is excreted after 12 hours-- which is why I split my MSM dosage. I only plan on continuing this megadosing for about 2 more weeks, and then I will back down again, probably to about 1-2 tsp (or 5000-10000 mg). Will let you know how it goes!
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Wed Dec 02, 2009 3:39 am      Reply with quote
I've been posting about dermarolling my face and using the much-debated Retin-A after.

I will continue this saga over on the Dermarolling for Product Penetration thread (the results were interesting!).
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Fri Dec 04, 2009 3:55 am      Reply with quote
Hi, just got to this thread WOW!

Where can I purchase Retinyl Palmitate at a budget price? Would anyone be able to help me on this one?
Thanks!
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Tue Dec 08, 2009 6:22 am      Reply with quote
Hello to everybody

I'm sorry for my english not very well

I would like to know as follow.

Which results do you have obtained using dermaroller on scars?

In particular I've so much stretch marks Crying or Very sad

Is it better to use dermaroller by myself or with doctor?

Thanks
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Tue Dec 08, 2009 2:31 pm      Reply with quote
donrodrigo wrote:
Hello to everybody

I'm sorry for my english not very well

I would like to know as follow.

Which results do you have obtained using dermaroller on scars?

In particular I've so much stretch marks Crying or Very sad

Is it better to use dermaroller by myself or with doctor?

Thanks

Hi Donrodrigo and welcome to EDS!

There's a very good thread especially for advice on dermarolling and stretchmarks; here is the link;

http://www.essentialdayspa.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=500651#500651

It's getting long now but worth reading through as most of your questions may have been already answered!

And most of us dermaroll ourselves!
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Thu Dec 14, 2017 3:52 pm
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