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CookieD
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Sat Sep 01, 2012 4:43 pm      Reply with quote
Cross posting this study.



I don't know if this has been posted before but this is one of the best studies I have seen that compares 4 different groups-control, product only, dermaroller only and dermaroller and product.

Now the BIG problem is it is done on rats but it has all kind of microphotographs of skin stains, charts and pictures that show gene expression changes in collagen 1,3,EGF and EGF7 at 2,4 & 8 weeks etc. So we can actually see and read much more information about the study as apposed to just seeing a chart like in Dr. S's study. Maybe this will help us determine how much skin remodeling is done by product only vs needling vs. product & needling. The study use a 3mm roller and Environ Vit A & C products.



http://download.journals.elsevierhealth.com/pdfs/journals/1748-6815/PIIS1748681510001798.pdf







Sixty male SpragueeDawley rats (350e375g), age 4 months, were randomly assigned into four groups: group (A) (n Z 6: control); group (B) (n Z 18: skincare only); group (C) (n Z 18: needling only) and group (D) (n Z 18: needling plus skincare).
Group (A) was left untreated, and group (B) was anaes- thetised, shaved and treated additionally with skincare in the same way as group (D). Groups (C and D) received a 30% total body surface area skin needling (10min) on the shaved back skin under general anaesthesia and analgesia (Rompun 0.3 ml kg-1 of body weight, Ketanest 1.1 ml kg1 of body weight) to induce percutaneous collagen, using a medical needling instrument (Environ! Medical Roll- CITTM, Vivida SA cc, Cape Town, South Africa) (Figure 1c and d). Shaving was done only once in groups (B), (C) and (D). The length of the needles was 3 mm which penetrates right through the epidermis down to the dermis. The end point was achieved after rolling all animals for 10 min to create thousands of microwounds in the dermis that result in a confluent zone of haematoma.

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VeronicaM
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Sat Sep 01, 2012 11:03 pm      Reply with quote
I came across this interesting dermarolling article in a UK newspaper that I'd like to share:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/beauty/article-1226193/Can-Dermaroller-make-look-younger.html
Kassy_A
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Sun Sep 02, 2012 1:50 pm      Reply with quote
Just a quick update for me:

My DR journey started on July 20th. I did two monthly rolls with the 0.5mm roller, and twelve product penetration rolls with the 0.25mm roller.

The only visual improvements I'm seeing as of today are a decrease in pore size (especially the nose), and a slight reduction of the few spider veins I have on both cheeks. Maybe my cheeks are plumping up a little, and it's just not apparent to me. (I did take a few pictures before the 1st roll, so maybe it's time to take a few more for comparison.)

Now for the negatives. I thought I was seeing a reduction of the vertical lines above my lips, but now I realize it was probably just temporary swelling. At rest I don't see them, but they are certainly apparent with the least little pucker.. Laughing My NL lines/folds look a little deeper to me, but I honestly don't know if it's because I'm spending more time than usual looking at the bloody mirror for changes.. Confused Another negative for me is that although the skin on my chest looks nicer and feels softer, when I wake in the morning I have deep creases from being a side sleeper. (Hard as I try, I can't seem to change this life long miserable habit.) Maybe this is why the NL folds look worse now also. Some days I wake up with my face plastered so hard into the pillow, that I'm actually sore... Embarassed Why oh why is the blasted side sleeping just so cozy?

All in all I really enjoy and look forward to the treatments. I don't find it all all (what I would call) painful. I really go at it too! I'm still contemplating moving up to the 0.75 or 1mm. If nothing else, I really think my cheeks need a deeper roll. They are quite plump and firm for an old geezer. (Now if I could just see something exciting start to happen on the lower face, I'd be beyond thrilled!) I'll continue with the same rolling regime, and hoping that in a few months time some "new" collagen synthesis is apparent...

I'm using DIY serums/lotions exclusively and have decided that my skin is most happy and responsive to the following ingredients overall:

-Vitamins A,B(3+5),C,D,E
-Matrixyl 3000
-Ceramides (I rely on oils + lecithin for this)
-Alpha Lipoic Acid
-Green & White Tea
-MSM
-Sea Kelp Powder (loaded with amino acids + vitamins!)
-Aloe Vera
-A plethora of great oils

Hope everyone is having a nice relaxing Sunday

Very Happy

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♥I'm flattered by all the lovely PM's, but I don't get here much these days. Please don't be afraid to post your quearies to other DIY members who will be glad to help you (or sell you their wares..lol) Still happy with LED, dermarolling and a DIY antioxidant regime. Peace & Hugs to all.♥
bethany
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Sun Sep 02, 2012 6:50 pm      Reply with quote
Kassy_A wrote:
Just a quick update for me:

My DR journey started on July 20th. I did two monthly rolls with the 0.5mm roller, and twelve product penetration rolls with the 0.25mm roller.


Kassy, I found that it took 4-6 months before I saw any real changes. At 4 months I saw some odd little bumps (very small) where I had rolled. At 6 months I suddenly noticed my crowsfeet were gone. But anything before that is really just inflammation.

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CookieD
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Sun Sep 02, 2012 8:23 pm      Reply with quote
bethany wrote:

Kassy, I found that it took 4-6 months before I saw any real changes. At 4 months I saw some odd little bumps (very small) where I had rolled. At 6 months I suddenly noticed my crowsfeet were gone. But anything before that is really just inflammation.


Bethany, when you first started out did you always use the bigger needles or did you do any cosmetic rolls?

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bethany
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Mon Sep 03, 2012 8:54 am      Reply with quote
CookieD wrote:
bethany wrote:

Kassy, I found that it took 4-6 months before I saw any real changes. At 4 months I saw some odd little bumps (very small) where I had rolled. At 6 months I suddenly noticed my crowsfeet were gone. But anything before that is really just inflammation.


Bethany, when you first started out did you always use the bigger needles or did you do any cosmetic rolls?


I started with 1.5mm and dialed back to 1mm after reading more research.

I tried cosmetic rolls briefly, but was still red for 3 days even with short needles, so figured the ongoing inflammation would be too damaging.

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bethany
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Sat Sep 08, 2012 8:04 pm      Reply with quote
Ugh...not happy. I just slathered up with Ink-Eeze for an hour (supposedly better than Dr. Numb and Emla) and drank a bottle of wine. But I just can't get to the same numb point I could 3+ years ago where I could roll with a 1mm until blood dripped down my face. Now I am unable to get a decent roll, and pretty much feel like I am wasting my time and won't see the great results that I did in the past. Sad

I may have to resort to a professional roll under anesthesia. I sure wish I knew why my face is so much more sensitive now.

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salster68
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Sun Sep 09, 2012 12:59 pm      Reply with quote
Hi

i bought a 0.02 demaroller (realised i probably have gone to small to combat wrinkles but will start off with this for the time being) I use retin a 0.025% or 0.050% at night. After rolling do i still put my retin a on at night or should i look at getting another cream for after rolling for the nights i use ther dermaroller and then use my retin a the following night

many thanks

sally

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CookieD
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Sun Sep 09, 2012 7:09 pm      Reply with quote
bethany wrote:
Ugh...not happy. I just slathered up with Ink-Eeze for an hour (supposedly better than Dr. Numb and Emla) and drank a bottle of wine. But I just can't get to the same numb point I could 3+ years ago where I could roll with a 1mm until blood dripped down my face. Now I am unable to get a decent roll, and pretty much feel like I am wasting my time and won't see the great results that I did in the past. Sad

I may have to resort to a professional roll under anesthesia. I sure wish I knew why my face is so much more sensitive now.


Sorry Bethany. Did you ever get the Lyapko roller to try to toughen up your skin? I got one and I do use it some but I feel like a dork using it because I don't feel like it does anything but I hold out hope that my skin is toughen up for a big gun rolling down the road.

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bethany
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Sun Sep 09, 2012 8:32 pm      Reply with quote
CookieD wrote:
bethany wrote:
Ugh...not happy. I just slathered up with Ink-Eeze for an hour (supposedly better than Dr. Numb and Emla) and drank a bottle of wine. But I just can't get to the same numb point I could 3+ years ago where I could roll with a 1mm until blood dripped down my face. Now I am unable to get a decent roll, and pretty much feel like I am wasting my time and won't see the great results that I did in the past. Sad

I may have to resort to a professional roll under anesthesia. I sure wish I knew why my face is so much more sensitive now.



Sorry Bethany. Did you ever get the Lyapko roller to try to toughen up your skin? I got one and I do use it some but I feel like a dork using it because I don't feel like it does anything but I hold out hope that my skin is toughen up for a big gun rolling down the road.


I tried it, but didn't think it really did much. Sad

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summer2004
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Mon Sep 10, 2012 3:52 am      Reply with quote
Bethany,

Ever since purchasing the Lyapko roller early this year, I had used only once.

2 months ago, I took it out from the cabinet to see if it could thicken my skin as Keliu said. The first 5 rolls I cried out loud as it hurt me so much, afterwards, it did not hurt much.

Maybe you should roll it slowly - 1 to minute a day and then see how it goes.
bethany
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Mon Sep 10, 2012 5:28 pm      Reply with quote
summer2004 wrote:
Bethany,

Ever since purchasing the Lyapko roller early this year, I had used only once.

2 months ago, I took it out from the cabinet to see if it could thicken my skin as Keliu said. The first 5 rolls I cried out loud as it hurt me so much, afterwards, it did not hurt much.

Maybe you should roll it slowly - 1 to minute a day and then see how it goes.


Thanks...I'll give it another shot!

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Tue Sep 11, 2012 8:24 am      Reply with quote
bethany wrote:
Ugh...not happy. I just slathered up with Ink-Eeze for an hour (supposedly better than Dr. Numb and Emla) and drank a bottle of wine. But I just can't get to the same numb point I could 3+ years ago where I could roll with a 1mm until blood dripped down my face. Now I am unable to get a decent roll, and pretty much feel like I am wasting my time and won't see the great results that I did in the past. Sad

I may have to resort to a professional roll under anesthesia. I sure wish I knew why my face is so much more sensitive now.


Bethany, have you tried using an occlusion over your topical anesthetic? I cut and paste bits of plastic wrap, covering my face and neck after application of the cream. It makes a HUGE difference in how numb I get compared to the same amount of cream without occlusion. Five weeks ago I did a 1.5mm roll with reckless abandon. I was numb as a corpse!! If you are not already using an occlusion, you should do a little patch test on your forehead before your next roll, just to see if it does the trick. I was rolling way back when this thread started and ended up quitting. But it definitely worked, so I'm getting back on it!

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bethany
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Tue Sep 11, 2012 3:21 pm      Reply with quote
mangosteen wrote:
bethany wrote:
Ugh...not happy. I just slathered up with Ink-Eeze for an hour (supposedly better than Dr. Numb and Emla) and drank a bottle of wine. But I just can't get to the same numb point I could 3+ years ago where I could roll with a 1mm until blood dripped down my face. Now I am unable to get a decent roll, and pretty much feel like I am wasting my time and won't see the great results that I did in the past. Sad

I may have to resort to a professional roll under anesthesia. I sure wish I knew why my face is so much more sensitive now.


Bethany, have you tried using an occlusion over your topical anesthetic? I cut and paste bits of plastic wrap, covering my face and neck after application of the cream. It makes a HUGE difference in how numb I get compared to the same amount of cream without occlusion. Five weeks ago I did a 1.5mm roll with reckless abandon. I was numb as a corpse!! If you are not already using an occlusion, you should do a little patch test on your forehead before your next roll, just to see if it does the trick. I was rolling way back when this thread started and ended up quitting. But it definitely worked, so I'm getting back on it!


I have not, but I am desperate enough to wrap my entire head in plastic wrap if necessary, lol.

I'll give it a shot and report back. Thanks!

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bethany
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Tue Sep 11, 2012 3:28 pm      Reply with quote
CookieD wrote:
Cross posting this study.



I don't know if this has been posted before but this is one of the best studies I have seen that compares 4 different groups-control, product only, dermaroller only and dermaroller and product.

Now the BIG problem is it is done on rats but it has all kind of microphotographs of skin stains, charts and pictures that show gene expression changes in collagen 1,3,EGF and EGF7 at 2,4 & 8 weeks etc. So we can actually see and read much more information about the study as apposed to just seeing a chart like in Dr. S's study. Maybe this will help us determine how much skin remodeling is done by product only vs needling vs. product & needling. The study use a 3mm roller and Environ Vit A & C products.


http://download.journals.elsevierhealth.com/pdfs/journals/1748-6815/PIIS1748681510001798.pdf


Sixty male SpragueeDawley rats (350e375g), age 4 months, were randomly assigned into four groups: group (A) (n Z 6: control); group (B) (n Z 18: skincare only); group (C) (n Z 18: needling only) and group (D) (n Z 18: needling plus skincare).
Group (A) was left untreated, and group (B) was anaes- thetised, shaved and treated additionally with skincare in the same way as group (D). Groups (C and D) received a 30% total body surface area skin needling (10min) on the shaved back skin under general anaesthesia and analgesia (Rompun 0.3 ml kg-1 of body weight, Ketanest 1.1 ml kg1 of body weight) to induce percutaneous collagen, using a medical needling instrument (Environ! Medical Roll- CITTM, Vivida SA cc, Cape Town, South Africa) (Figure 1c and d). Shaving was done only once in groups (B), (C) and (D). The length of the needles was 3 mm which penetrates right through the epidermis down to the dermis. The end point was achieved after rolling all animals for 10 min to create thousands of microwounds in the dermis that result in a confluent zone of haematoma.


Cookie, this was a great read.

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salster68
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Wed Sep 12, 2012 12:15 pm      Reply with quote
Hi

i bought a 0.02 demaroller (realised i probably have gone to small to combat wrinkles but will start off with this for the time being) I use retin a 0.025% or 0.050% at nightdepending on how my skin is reacting though i must say i can normally use the higher strength quite wellnow. After rolling do i still put my retin a on at night or should i look at getting another cream for after rolling for the nights i use ther dermaroller and then use my retin a the following night

many thanks

sally

I did a first roll with it last night and glad i only had first bought a small one. Pain free and very relaxing. after an hour my face did feel tight and looked sunburnt. I didnt put anything on my face after as i wasnt sure what to use. I didnt know if i should put my retin a on after or not. Please could someone give me some advice. m

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Wed Sep 12, 2012 2:29 pm      Reply with quote
bethany wrote:

I have not, but I am desperate enough to wrap my entire head in plastic wrap if necessary, lol.

I'll give it a shot and report back. Thanks!


Bethany please make sure that your numbing agent is safe to use with an occlusion. I don't mean to scare you, but there have been instances of people dying from covering to large an area of non-suitable numbing agent with saran wrap. Emla is safe, and even supposed to be covered up, I don't know how it is with other agents.
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Wed Sep 12, 2012 6:28 pm      Reply with quote
I have discovered, quite by accident, that a thicker plastic wrap works much better for making the numbing cream more effective. I use plastic that I cut from a thick bag...

I am careful to only numb sections of my face at a time...forehead, then each side, then chin, then hands.

BFG
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Thu Sep 13, 2012 3:24 am      Reply with quote
Barefootgirl wrote:
I have discovered, quite by accident, that a thicker plastic wrap works much better for making the numbing cream more effective. I use plastic that I cut from a thick bag...

I am careful to only numb sections of my face at a time...forehead, then each side, then chin, then hands.

BFG


Interesting! I just rolled a couple nights ago and didn't get nearly as numb as I had in the past. I was using the same tube of cream, so I chalked it up to the store brand of plastic wrap I just purchased. Previously I used the brand name Saran Wrap. I am guessing the cheapie was more porous. Maybe I'll go with cutting up garbage bags next time.

My skin looks great the day after a deep roll (that was yesterday). The following day(today) it looks tired and flakey. Ugh...

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Fri Sep 21, 2012 7:51 pm      Reply with quote
But not new here even though i had to re-register as i forgot my username

At any rate, i've read and read and read but i'll go ahead and post.

Just bought a 1mm roller and going to attempt this! i am thinking since i'm newly 50 that i want my results to be anti-aging and not just for penetration of actives (although that MAY change with my results...)
so.... it sounds like once a week MAXIMUM or once a month is the frequency (unlike every other day like i've been reading on some blogs!) and also one is to follow up with an "active" after rolling, i wanted to run this active by you all and see what you think...i've been pretty happy with this serum and she also has a vitamin A that i'd like your thoughts about. If neither are "kosher" to follow up after a session, then i have pure aloe vera

(since i'm not allowed to post external links it's from makeupartistschoice website)
it's her "Peptide Serum w/Botanicals"
Quote:
Matrixyl™
An amino peptide, palmitoyl pentapeptide-3, is one of the most powerful peptide molecules found in high end skin care. Rebuilds the skin's matrix.
--increase overall collagen synthesis by up to 117%
--increase collagen IV synthesis by up to 327%
--increase hyaluronic acid synthesis by up to 267%
Clinical studies show the positive effects of Matrixyl increase with time.

Revitalin® BT (glycoprotein)
An oxygen accelerator that boosts radiance and protects skin against environmental damage.

Saccharomyces Lysate Extract
Derived from yeast this extract is an excellent humectant (draws moisture from the air and helps the retention of moisture).

Calendula Extract
Stimulates metabolism of skin cells, prevents free radicals formation.

Citrus medica limonum (lemon bioflavonoids) leaf extract
Astringent, provides brightening effects, rich in limonene which reduces abnormal cell growth, antioxidant.

Horsetail herb
Used as an epithelial regenerator. Has a stabilizing action on the conjunctive tissue, working through epithelial regeneration to strengthen.

Sodium Hyaluronate
Hyaluronic acid. A humectant. Holds 1,000 times its weight in water. Used in hospital burn units for cell regeneration and healing.

Rosemary Leaf Extract

and her .30% Retinol Serum:
Quote:
Our Retinol Serum is formulated in a special delivery system that ensures stabilization of the molecule without oxidation and enhances cutaneous absorption of Vitamin A through the epidermis, reaching even the prickle layer.

Most retinol creams and lotions don't work because their levels of Retinol are too low in addition to being formulated in cheap, ineffective delivery systems.

Our serum is obtained at 12,000 psi (pounds per square inch) under microfluidizing conditions.
What does this mean for your results??? Our Retinol will absorb deeply into your skin, penetrating into the prickle layer
(

i'm very excited (but SCARED) to do this as i love trying to make my skin the best it can be, my main complaints are large pores (which nothing will address) and fine wrinkling especially under the eyes and between brows. Other than that her Glycolic and enzyme peels have been terrific for my skin but i obviously want to crank everything up a notch
Laughing

It's great to be back and i'm looking forward to any help and responses Very Happy

Susie
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Sat Sep 22, 2012 9:24 am      Reply with quote
I am going to start Drerma-rolling to try and get rid of some acne scars. What I plan on getting is:

1)1.5mm roller
2)LED lights (red, yellow, and infrared)
3)needles for single scars
4)making a topical vitamin C

Are there any recommendations on the best products? I have seen many advertised but, many times the sites look sketchy. Also, what are the best type of needles for single scars and a subcision approach? I remember there being a post about the cons of needles like acupuncture,diabetic, etc. but,do not remember there being a final recommendation.
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Sat Sep 22, 2012 11:07 am      Reply with quote
CPHgirl wrote:
bethany wrote:

I have not, but I am desperate enough to wrap my entire head in plastic wrap if necessary, lol.

I'll give it a shot and report back. Thanks!


Bethany please make sure that your numbing agent is safe to use with an occlusion. I don't mean to scare you, but there have been instances of people dying from covering to large an area of non-suitable numbing agent with saran wrap. Emla is safe, and even supposed to be covered up, I don't know how it is with other agents.


Thanks...I just ordered some Emla.

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bethany
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Sat Sep 22, 2012 11:12 am      Reply with quote
Newbies should read this book...1mm rollers are NOT recommended for ongoing weekly usage.

http://www.essentialdayspa.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=45819

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CookieD
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Sat Sep 22, 2012 11:55 am      Reply with quote
maverick323 wrote:
I am going to start Drerma-rolling to try and get rid of some acne scars. What I plan on getting is:

1)1.5mm roller
2)LED lights (red, yellow, and infrared)
3)needles for single scars
4)making a topical vitamin C

Are there any recommendations on the best products? I have seen many advertised but, many times the sites look sketchy. Also, what are the best type of needles for single scars and a subcision approach? I remember there being a post about the cons of needles like acupuncture,diabetic, etc. but,do not remember there being a final recommendation.


A lot of members including me have ordered both dermarollers and single needles from owndoc. Below is a link to review on different rollers that she did.


http://owndoc.com/dermarolling/dermaroller-review/


For led lights I use the LightStim. I like it and think it works but it doesn't have any yellow lights on it. The other brands that seem to be popular are babyq and dpl panels but don't think either have yellow lights.

For Vit c, look in the DIY recipe section. There are tons of different recipes and suppliers listed.

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Sun Sep 23, 2012 12:12 am      Reply with quote
Hi, Just reading all the replys and wondering if anyone has had good results from the dermarolling? I did some research and thought about buying one but am so tired of trying so many different things for wrinkles. I came accross some info. on facial blading/and shaving the face for skin resurfacing. Wondering if anyone has tried this and what results they got. Thanks! Smile
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