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DermaRoller

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Barefootgirl
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Thu Jun 27, 2013 5:52 am      Reply with quote
I think the 0.5mm is more suited to enhancing product penetration than building collagen, but if you were using the right products with the 0.5mm, you should have gotten at least some results...

As far as the 1.0mm and above - were you rolling vigorously enough to get the growth factors ignited?

I've recently heard that bleeding is not always a good indicator since some people don't bleed but are still needling effectively....examples: smokers or people who've already done several deep rolls and whose skin is now "thickened".

BFG
Barefootgirl
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Mon Jul 01, 2013 6:30 am      Reply with quote
I'm not sure why this hasn't been discussed before, but I also recently learned that needling can reverse early skin cancers...I am still trying to understand it - but presumably by removing or breaking up early clusters in the skin? Not sure, need to look into it. The thought that it could keep someone from pain and possibly dying, is good news.

I would think lasering or peels might be able to do the same?

BFG
UmEnis
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Wed Jul 03, 2013 7:09 am      Reply with quote
BFG, I would love to find some more info on that. It is interesting, though I don't know that laser would have the same effect. I'm totally open to peels and laser, but obviously to go as deep into the skin as the roller goes is a serious peel.

I actually was logging on here to post about my very first roll last night Smile I hadn't seen much action here and thought I'd be the first new post in awhile till I saw barefootgirl's post Embarassed I've been making my way through this mega thread but I haven't seen the answer to my specific question. I apologize for being tedious in advance, as I'm sure its already been answered, but here goes:
I know some people are bigger bleeders than others, but I did a 1.5 roll on my lower abdomen (post-pregnancy-skin issues) and I'm not even sure the rollers penetrated. I did a .5 roll on my face and didn't think it penetrated either, until my husband noticed I was a bit red. Still wasn't sure I did it right, till i noticed a bit of peeling today.

Now, I prepped my skin as own doc suggests--actually waaay more, as I've been exfoliating for years. I alternately use vitamin C and a decent lactic acid daily peel on my abdomen, I also dry brush pretty hard. On my face, I alternate retin a, lacsal from skin biology and vitamin c; I also use a clarasonic. I do have fairly "hearty" skin. I watched the vidoes on own doc (they are own doc rollers btw) and put moderate pressure as suggested--enough pressure that I feel like I am putting pressure but not like I am trying to hammer nails in or anything.

How can you tell if the needles have penetrated? Is it possible that they didn't? It was prickly and uncomfortable (verging on a bit painful in a few spots) but not like getting a tattoo or getting a tattoo removed or anything?

Any thoughts? Much obliged!
Yubs
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Wed Jul 03, 2013 7:32 am      Reply with quote
BFG wrote:
I'm not sure why this hasn't been discussed before, but I also recently learned that needling can reverse early skin cancers...I am still trying to understand it - but presumably by removing or breaking up early clusters in the skin? Not sure, need to look into it.

I'm thinking maybe it's simply that needling promotes healthy cell growth. Possibly because the needled area is flooded with the "good chemicals" necessary to heal properly, cancer simply can't grow any more. Normal growth takes over and overwhelms the cancer, instead of cancer (mutated, out of control cell growth) overwhelming the normal growth. This is very interesting and thanks for posting about it!

UmEnis, I apparently don't bleed much, either. I didn't even with the My-m on 1.5...it actually seemed like I got a better roll with the 0.5 roller, although I didn't bleed then, either. Just the "sunburn". But mine was fairly painful, even if not like tattooing. I actually think getting a tattoo is less painful than needling, because the needle is going so fast. Or maybe my perception is because I never tattooed myself. Wink

I'd wait the recommended amount of time for your needle length before trying to assess results. Not the expert here but from what I read everybody responds a bit differently.
UmEnis
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Wed Jul 03, 2013 1:44 pm      Reply with quote
[quote="Yubs"]
BFG wrote:


I'd wait the recommended amount of time for your needle length before trying to assess results. Not the expert here but from what I read everybody responds a bit differently.


Oh, no, Yubs, I'm not jumping the gun on seeing results here--I know these things take time... But how do I know the needles even penetrated?
harperl
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Wed Jul 03, 2013 2:05 pm      Reply with quote
Hello everyone! I've never posted here before (I don't think?) but have popped in to read over the years. Like a bunch of other people here, I have read this whole thread but have a pretty simple question I'm hoping you won't mind my asking:

For people who find dermastamping to be more effective or easier to get deep with, what dermastamp/size of dermastamp do you have success with? I recall reading, maybe here but I'm not sure (it's taken me weeks and weeks to get through this board + OwnDoc info!), that that larger rectangular one you see on OwnDoc and elsewhere isn't the best choice. I already have one of the orange 35-needle ones but it seems like it would take forever to do the whole face with it. Are there other alternatives? I like the idea of using a stamp to get uniform depth.

Thank you! And thank you generally for this amazingly informative board.
CookieD
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Wed Jul 03, 2013 2:34 pm      Reply with quote
UmEnis wrote:
But how do I know the needles even penetrated?


You could try the roller on something soft, maybe a tomato and see if the needles penetrate. Just a thought.

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CookieD
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Wed Jul 03, 2013 2:47 pm      Reply with quote
harperl wrote:

For people who find dermastamping to be more effective or easier to get deep with, what dermastamp/size of dermastamp do you have success with? I recall reading, maybe here but I'm not sure (it's taken me weeks and weeks to get through this board + OwnDoc info!), that that larger rectangular one you see on OwnDoc and elsewhere isn't the best choice. I already have one of the orange 35-needle ones but it seems like it would take forever to do the whole face with it. Are there other alternatives? I like the idea of using a stamp to get uniform depth.


Hi Harper and welcome to EDS. I haven't ever used the large rectangular Dermastamp but have used the orange one. It would take forever to do your whole face with that. Most people that use the stamp either use it on small areas like under eye or upper lip. Or on scars and then use the roller on bigger areas.

There are some alternatives. They are electric dermarollers. Own doc has come out with one called DermaJet and there is another called My-m that is a knockoff of the Derampen used by doctors and spas. They use very small diameter needle heads that work in a stamping motion but at a speed that far exceed anything you would be able to do manually. The DermaJet is suppose to be able to glide over the skin while stamping. The My-m that I have needs more of a stamping motion although I can glide it on a slower speed with the smaller needles. You can read about it in the link below.


http://www.essentialdayspa.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=47313

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harperl
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Wed Jul 03, 2013 3:25 pm      Reply with quote
Thanks! I've read about the electronic alternatives but they're just so expensive I don't know if I can swing it.
Needl
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Wed Jul 03, 2013 5:10 pm      Reply with quote
"How can you tell if the needles have penetrated? Is it possible that they didn't? It was prickly and uncomfortable (verging on a bit painful in a few spots)"

Hi UmEnis, I do think they simply don't penetrate much where my skin and/or subcutaneous fat is thick (eg thighs) as opposed to areas where it is thinner and the bone is nearer (shins). In the latter areas it really hurts and really bleeds, and I do think I get results.

On my neck and cheeks, where I do want penetration and bleeding but things are soft, I have to strongly tense the muscles below to get enough resistance and penetrate. Stretching the skin a bit with the other hand is another option, I've read.

It doesn't sound like you're fighting the dreaded thin, crepey skin? If those 'hearty skin' areas (sounds lovely) are a concern because of stretch marks, check out what results people have had for stretch marks with single needling. I think they've managed to go deep and really target that way. Also, a single needle doesn't create its own little resistant bed of needles, the way dermarollers can (especially ones with too many needles - people have complained that some are just too densely needled to penetrate much).
UmEnis
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Thu Jul 04, 2013 10:12 am      Reply with quote
Needl wrote:


It doesn't sound like you're fighting the dreaded thin, crepey skin? If those 'hearty skin' areas (sounds lovely) are a concern because of stretch marks, check out what results people have had for stretch marks with single needling.


Oh, I think I wasn't terribly clear. The hearty skin is on my face. I actually did realize I had penetrated there (it was pinkish and there was even some peeling later), but it was my abdomen where I couldn't penetrate. Its odd the skin there, its loose and overstretched with a good solid fat layer but crinkly. I do have some stretch marks, but they are not my biggest concern. My stomach looks reminiscent of these woman in the before pics (WARNING: NOT sufficient for work--upper body nudity) Somewhere I'd say between this [/url]http://www.drjeremyhunt.com.au/Breast/combined-abdobreast/combined-breastabdo.html[url] and this [/url]http://www.realself.com/blog/mommy-makeovers-two-months[url]

But its good to know that its not just my imagination! And the tensing muscle technique is a great tip! I never thought of it! Thank you so much.

And Harperl... Welcome! Great question, thanks for asking, as dermastamping and the My-M/ dermajet are definately things I've considered for my issue
yadanpeng
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Tue Jul 09, 2013 6:13 pm      Reply with quote
I also want to try those products. wants more information Very Happy
ShastaGirl
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Tue Jul 09, 2013 9:44 pm      Reply with quote
yadanpeng wrote:
I also want to try those products. wants more information Very Happy


I suggest you start at page 1 of this topic and read through. There is a wealth of information here that will provide a lot more information.
CarolineP
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Sun Jul 14, 2013 12:19 am      Reply with quote
Yadanpeng, what information are you looking for specifically?

I read through this whole thread as well as others that relate to my concerns. Yes, shoveling through pages and pages of posts took a while Wink , but I learned A LOT.
CarolineP
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Sun Jul 14, 2013 12:44 am      Reply with quote
Does anyone use Sea Buckthorn oil after a deep roll? I am wondering if this oil (being so healing) will minimize the necessary inflammation and reduce the effectiveness of the treatment.

I have been using Sea Buckthorn oil for 2 weeks in preparation for a roll. And I am leaning toward using it post-roll because of its high vit A, vit C content. I have also added vit E to it.

Unfortunately, because I am still nursing my youngest child, I cannot do retinoids at the moment. And Vitamin C serums give me a horrible case of blackheads.

So I was looking for something that would work in my situation for both pre- and post-roll. Rolling is so much work, so I would like to do everything possible to maximize my success. This is going to be my very first time Shock Shock Ahh! I'm a chicken. But I want to be a well prepared chicken, Ha-ha-ha!
iostream71
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Sun Jul 14, 2013 12:53 am      Reply with quote
I haven't had the time to read through this monster thread yet, but I have a few questions.

1)Are the MT brand rollers ok to use?

2)How long do they usually last(plan on every other day with .05 needle)

3)Is there any concern of damage to the skin with long-term use?

Thanks =)
Pandax12
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Sun Jul 14, 2013 4:52 am      Reply with quote
iostream71 wrote:
I haven't had the time to read through this monster thread yet, but I have a few questions.

1)Are the MT brand rollers ok to use?

2)How long do they usually last(plan on every other day with .05 needle)

3)Is there any concern of damage to the skin with long-term use?

Thanks =)


I used a 1.0mm and 1.5mm MT roller last night. Along with another brand 2.0mm. What I do is buy them on ebay. I look for the golden/mustard colored ones (harder to find) that have cross-linked needles. They are said to have a greater effect than the straight across needles. As to your other questions, I suggest reading this great PDF from owndoc.com http://dermaroller.owndoc.com/dermaroller-instructions.pdf
lindsay123
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Fri Jul 19, 2013 8:06 am      Reply with quote
So i'm getting closer to starting derma rolling..., or stamping. In the evenings i'm managing to read through this thread and a few others (page 104 so far Smile), as well as the papers and journals posted elsewhere. I'm looking to tackle some shallow acne scarring and poor texture on my forehead after a retinoid did a number on my skin (bad texture and thin).

I have some quick questions if anyone has some time to help me out. Since i have sensitive and reactive skin i think i might start with a 1mm stamp to work on the most prominent scars (this makes sense, right?), and if i like what's happening i'll get a .75 or 1mm roller and see where things go from there.

- can anyone recommend a good source of vit A that isn't an acid that i can use for a few weeks before starting and also after the treatment? Retinoids are a bit too strong for me but everywhere i've read suggests a source of vit A pre and post is almost essential.

- the other active i know i need is vit C - again is there something available for sensitive skin people have experience of, or is it best to simply buy l-ascorbic acid and add my own ratio of water etc? I also read that for sensitive skin you might want to avoid l-ascorbic acid altogether (especially post treatment) - are there other sources of vit C i could use?

- i have some first gen copper peptides that i know would be good to apply a day or two after treatment..., but do you have to toss up between all these, or is it really advisable to use a combination of vit A, vit C, and cps post treatment? It just seems quite a lot to me. I'm so clueless when it comes to actives (new to skincare in general)...confusing!

- finally, does anyone use the infadolan ointment from the owndoc site after treatment for a day or two? Do you think something like this is necessary before starting other actives?

URGH. Okay, i think that's all just now. Oh, actually no, one more - does anyone use a stamp? Do you need to move the stamp a little each time to press down (it's recommended to stamp 6-8 times on owndoc)?

I'm hoping this is one of those things that becomes much easier once you start and have all your gadgets in places.

Thanks!
CarolineP
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Sat Jul 20, 2013 1:27 am      Reply with quote
Lindsay, I have a similar situation to yours. (cannot do retinoids because of breastfeeding, and cannot do Vitamin C serums because of bad congestion and blackheads as a reaction to vit C serum)

From everything I read, vitamins A and C are essential when derma rolling. So I have been looking for alternative topicals to be used as pre and post treatments.

So far I have been using oils with high vitamin A and vitamin C content - Sea Buckthorn oil and Rosehip oil. I am getting ready to do a roll soon and using these two daily, SeaBuckthorn at night, and Rosehip in the morning.

I am hoping some of the pros will chime in with better ideas. Smile Smile Perhaps I am on the right track ?
lindsay123
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Sun Jul 21, 2013 7:20 am      Reply with quote
Yes, it's a bit frustrating. There isn't much point rolling / stamping if your skin doesn't have the actives it needs to build collagen and repair..., but i didn't think it would be so hard to find the right actives. I just want to starting rolling / stamping already Sad !

From the reading i've managed to do it seems that Dr Fernandes recommends A and C (but not the acid forms) for pre and post rolling, and to definitely avoid ascorbic acid post rolling. But over at own doc Sarah Vaughter sells ascorbic acid and says "non-acidic vit. C is not suitable for a microneedling skin serum" so i'm a bit confused.

Regarding other actives that are derivatives of vit C that are non acidic, i came across ascorbyl tretaisopalmitate / tetrahexydecyl ascorbate, but this seems impossible to get in the UK / Europe. Garden of Wisdom do a 'chock full of vitamins' serum (non acidic vit c AND retinol) but again i can't find it in the UK or Europe. Another one i found was ascorbyl palmitate but i can't find much information about it. Another shop bought one i found when reading was the Environ Ionzyme C-Quence 1, which contains vit A and C in a non-irritating formula. It say it is recommended for mature skin (although it's suitable for most skin types) and i'm 24. It's also £75 Surprised..., you can't need to spend that much surely.

It seems that looking for a good vit C serum, and then looking for a good vit C serum for using when rolling are two different tasks.

So some people don't use an acidic version of vit C (or vit A) at all pre and post rolling, but some use it pre but not post until a few days after the rolling? I am so CONFUSED Mad.

The best i can think of just now is something like this:

pre rolling:

for two weeks or whatever use a weak diy vit C serum of what, 5%? Just with distilled water..., maybe only every third day.

post rolling:

use something like Infadolan (non acidic vit. A & D ointment) for the initial post treatment and maybe another day. After that maybe the first gen copper peptides (which is non acidic of course), and maybe use the weak diy vit C on alternate days a few times a week.

I'm just a bit lost of the non acidic vit A front.

I should say i'm looking to do more than merely product penetration so my outlook may differ from yours depending on your aim.

Sorry for the rambling! Comments appreciated Smile
Needl
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Tue Jul 23, 2013 10:54 pm      Reply with quote
I have very successfully done 1.5 rolling and single needling without any topicals. Just plenty of good food (protein) and time to let the skin build up new collagen.
Yubs
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Wed Jul 24, 2013 9:53 am      Reply with quote
I suspect lack of topicals can be made up by good diet, as Needl said, or even supplements. I take a lot of oral vit C and eat lots of liver for vitamin A. I'm not an expert, however, and mine is an experiment in progress.

I have another question, though. Hopefully more experienced needlers (BFG, Keliu, bethany, LauraLizzie, CookieD, etc.) will chime in...do you guys see the value of the "short" (0.2 - 0.5) roll in between more aggressive sessions every six weeks?
bethany
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Wed Jul 24, 2013 2:37 pm      Reply with quote
Yubs wrote:
I suspect lack of topicals can be made up by good diet, as Needl said, or even supplements. I take a lot of oral vit C and eat lots of liver for vitamin A. I'm not an expert, however, and mine is an experiment in progress.

I have another question, though. Hopefully more experienced needlers (BFG, Keliu, bethany, LauraLizzie, CookieD, etc.) will chime in...do you guys see the value of the "short" (0.2 - 0.5) roll in between more aggressive sessions every six weeks?


Short needles (.2-.3) can help release growth factors and increase product penetration, but only if you don't increase inflammation levels. They recommend starting with 2x a week and working up from there.

.5 is way too long to use frequently.

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Yubs
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Wed Jul 24, 2013 2:52 pm      Reply with quote
bethany wrote:
Yubs wrote:
I suspect lack of topicals can be made up by good diet, as Needl said, or even supplements. I take a lot of oral vit C and eat lots of liver for vitamin A. I'm not an expert, however, and mine is an experiment in progress.

I have another question, though. Hopefully more experienced needlers (BFG, Keliu, bethany, LauraLizzie, CookieD, etc.) will chime in...do you guys see the value of the "short" (0.2 - 0.5) roll in between more aggressive sessions every six weeks?


Short needles (.2-.3) can help release growth factors and increase product penetration, but only if you don't increase inflammation levels. They recommend starting with 2x a week and working up from there.

.5 is way too long to use frequently.


Thanks, bethany. In your experience, do you think a roller or dermastamp might be better for this kind of "short needling" than an auto-needler?

For this purpose, should the density of holes/mm of skin be "light", or is it okay/desirable to have dense punctures since the needles are so short?

Also, based on your experience, after a deep, aggressive roll, what do you think is the optimum point to start with the short needles? Two weeks? Three? Etc.

Thanks in advance for the advice. Smile

I have the dermaneedling manual, BTW...I need to get it out and read it some more. So much stuff to do, so little time. Rolling Eyes
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Wed Jul 24, 2013 6:41 pm      Reply with quote
Yubs wrote:

I have another question, though. Hopefully more experienced needlers (BFG, Keliu, bethany, LauraLizzie, CookieD, etc.) will chime in...do you guys see the value of the "short" (0.2 - 0.5) roll in between more aggressive sessions every six weeks?


I don't think I would do a short session in between aggressive sessions. Mostly because it is a lot of work and I wouldn't want to get sloppy with my prep and aftercare. And for me, I can see myself deciding if .5 is ok, maybe 1.0 would be ok too and end up trashing my skin by overdoing it. Maybe you have more self control. Smile

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