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Yubs
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Wed Jul 24, 2013 6:45 pm      Reply with quote
LauraLizzie wrote:
Yubs wrote:

I have another question, though. Hopefully more experienced needlers (BFG, Keliu, bethany, LauraLizzie, CookieD, etc.) will chime in...do you guys see the value of the "short" (0.2 - 0.5) roll in between more aggressive sessions every six weeks?


I don't think I would do a short session in between aggressive sessions. Mostly because it is a lot of work and I wouldn't want to get sloppy with my prep and aftercare. And for me, I can see myself deciding if .5 is ok, maybe 1.0 would be ok too and end up trashing my skin by overdoing it. Maybe you have more self control. Smile

Well, there's that. Laughing Wink
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Sat Jul 27, 2013 12:23 am      Reply with quote
Yubs wrote:
Quote:
I suspect lack of topicals can be made up by good diet, as Needl said, or even supplements. I take a lot of oral vit C and eat lots of liver for vitamin A. I'm not an expert, however, and mine is an experiment in progress.


Well, Supplements and chicken liver then Smile
Thank you Smile I didn't think of it, hope this helps.
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Sun Jul 28, 2013 12:01 am      Reply with quote
Hey everyone,

What an amazing thread! I've read quite a bit, but havent found the answer to my question yet:

is it possible to dermaroll on skin where you have had fillers?

Thanks for your help!

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Violetlight
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Sun Jul 28, 2013 4:33 am      Reply with quote
Also, has anyone used dermarolling in conjunction with LED therapy?

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Thu Aug 08, 2013 10:49 pm      Reply with quote
bump.

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bethany
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Tue Aug 13, 2013 2:59 pm      Reply with quote
Here is a very good (and fairly recent) article from Dr. Fernandes on rolling...including the difference between cosmetic rolling for product penetration (.2mm roller) and skin remodeling/wrinkle reduction rolling (1mm to 1.5mm). He also addresses frequency (to some degree) and the question of whether or not bleeding is necessary.

http://www.a2magazine.co.za/2013/03/needle-work-low-down-on-skin-needling.html

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Tue Aug 13, 2013 3:19 pm      Reply with quote
Yubs wrote:
Thanks, bethany. In your experience, do you think a roller or dermastamp might be better for this kind of "short needling" than an auto-needler


I have tried a 0.2 mm session with the DermaJet and it hurt me like hell. I normally do not even feel neither a 0.2 mm dermaroller nor a 0.5 mm dermastamp.

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bethany
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Tue Aug 13, 2013 3:35 pm      Reply with quote
RussianSunshine wrote:
Yubs wrote:
Thanks, bethany. In your experience, do you think a roller or dermastamp might be better for this kind of "short needling" than an auto-needler


I have tried a 0.2 mm session with the DermaJet and it hurt me like hell. I normally do not even feel neither a 0.2 mm dermaroller nor a 0.5 mm dermastamp.


How long did it take to do your whole face? I think a roller would be much faster for a short needle session.

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Tue Aug 13, 2013 4:27 pm      Reply with quote
Thank you Bethany,

Some of this appears to differentiate himself from some of what Setterfield has been saying -

e.g. - that some don't bleed with CIT needling (those who've had several treatments and smokers)

.2 versus .3 needles (MTS and Setterfield)


Unfortunately there is growing disillusionment that bleeding is not essential - and that the same growth factors released from real medical needling will be induced by electrical changes - which are caused by deeper epidermal needling. In my earlier research I found no clinical evidence to confirm that.

We need to decipher this statement. I think I know what he's saying, but I have to think abou it. It's been a long day and I am tired.

BFG
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Tue Aug 13, 2013 4:30 pm      Reply with quote
Generally I recommend that the patient should have six sessions of needling done once a week under topical anaesthesia, or if they prefer, they could have one intensive session done with nerve block. The difference is that with the lighter sessions under topical anaesthesia, they can return to work the very next day, whereas after an intensive needling, they will be swollen and bruised for about four days.

I wonder what length of needles he is referring to here - that would be used once per week...

To augment the results, I suggest the use of very low concentration peeling agents which “sterilize” the wound and also seem to promote even more growth factor release. I wonder topicals he is referring to here?

BFG
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Tue Aug 13, 2013 4:43 pm      Reply with quote
Barefootgirl wrote:
Generally I recommend that the patient should have six sessions of needling done once a week under topical anaesthesia, or if they prefer, they could have one intensive session done with nerve block. The difference is that with the lighter sessions under topical anaesthesia, they can return to work the very next day, whereas after an intensive needling, they will be swollen and bruised for about four days.

I wonder what length of needles he is referring to here - that would be used once per week...

To augment the results, I suggest the use of very low concentration peeling agents which “sterilize” the wound and also seem to promote even more growth factor release. I wonder topicals he is referring to here?

BFG


I am thinking 1mm or 1.5mm needles. But then how long until the next 6 week treatment?

I am not sure on what topicals he is recommending...maybe salicylic acid? And how much time after the treatment should this be applied....immediately? two weeks later?

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Tue Aug 13, 2013 6:40 pm      Reply with quote
If it's to sterilize the "wound" I would think he means immediately?

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Tue Aug 13, 2013 6:52 pm      Reply with quote
Immacolata wrote:
If it's to sterilize the "wound" I would think he means immediately?


Good point!

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Tue Aug 13, 2013 7:41 pm      Reply with quote
The article looked to me like Dr. F is trying to hammer home the point that unless you bleed with the longer needles, you're not doing any good. Platelets have the growth factors.

0.2 is good for product penetration but that's the only good the shorter needles do.

He also says 1x/week sessions for six weeks, I'm assuming with longer needles. Jeez.

The statement about growing disillusionment with bleeding I take to mean that even though there is disillusionment, bleeding is still the essential thing, that people are mistaken if they believe the beneficial changes are still taking place even when there's no bleeding.

This is just my $0.02 after reading the article. No judgment (that is, I don't know enough to speculate about whether or not he's right about the necessity to draw blood, and apparently a lot of it) but that's what I understood it to mean.

Thanks for posting the link, bethany. It's an interesting read even if one could wish a pro like Dr. F would take a little more care to write more clearly. Is English a native language for him? I'm wondering if that factors into the lack of clarity at certain points.
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Tue Aug 13, 2013 10:32 pm      Reply with quote
bethany wrote:
Barefootgirl wrote:
Generally I recommend that the patient should have six sessions of needling done once a week under topical anaesthesia, or if they prefer, they could have one intensive session done with nerve block. The difference is that with the lighter sessions under topical anaesthesia, they can return to work the very next day, whereas after an intensive needling, they will be swollen and bruised for about four days.

I wonder what length of needles he is referring to here - that would be used once per week...

To augment the results, I suggest the use of very low concentration peeling agents which “sterilize” the wound and also seem to promote even more growth factor release. I wonder topicals he is referring to here?

BFG


I am thinking 1mm or 1.5mm needles. But then how long until the next 6 week treatment?

I am not sure on what topicals he is recommending...maybe salicylic acid? And how much time after the treatment should this be applied....immediately? two weeks later?


I just found some info on a peel Dr F "created"....

http://www.rejuven.co.uk/treatments/skin/environ-advanced-skin-peeling

http://www.dermalintegrity.com/lenviron.html

http://www.facethefuture.co.uk/shop/environ/home-peels/cat_224.html

http://www.beautyinthebag.com/wordpress/environ-launches-lacm-cool-peels/

http://www.watersideskincare.co.uk/treatment/environ-skin-clearing-treatment/

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Wed Aug 14, 2013 5:25 am      Reply with quote
Interesting.

A few things we know - you don't apply acids after needling, so maybe this is a pre-needling peel, which would not surprise me.

Notice the peel is recommended once per week for six weeks - the same as his article recommendation for needling.

My guess is that he is applying a very light peel, then needling some patients, once per week for a six week protocol.

All I can say is that applying a > 1.0mm needle once per week for six weeks would leave my skin a swollen mess - no time to recover.

I wonder if there is new research out there that is supporting more frequent needling?

maybe something about this embryo healing model vs. adult healing model.

BFG
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Wed Aug 14, 2013 5:30 am      Reply with quote
I think he is deliberately vague in the article in order to avoid making it appear to be a direct advertisement for Environ and to appear to be more "scientific" in nature.

Unfortunately there is growing disillusionment that bleeding is not essential - and that the same growth factors released from real medical needling will be induced by electrical changes - which are caused by deeper epidermal needling. In my earlier research I found no clinical evidence to confirm that.

My decipher on this: (1) bleeding is essential to release the growth factors.
(2) those out there who are advocating for devices that produce electrical changes in the skin are wrong in that those devices will not produce the same release of growth factors that is achieved with needling.
BFG
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Wed Aug 14, 2013 5:34 am      Reply with quote
Ok, second cup of coffee. I have changed my mind. I read it again.

He is stating that the skin improvements with needling come with the release of the growth factors, not from any electrical changes in the skin that happens with needling (as some others have stated).

Sorry for the early morning confusion.

And yes, you can roll over areas of the skin that have been filled with filler...you just need to wait before or after - search the forum - and you will find my previous guidance.

BFG
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Wed Aug 14, 2013 5:35 am      Reply with quote
Regarding any new research that discusses frequency of needling - we know you can needle any old time and practically as often as you want, with the short needles...but it is the longer needles that have been under discussion.

More research data required here.

BFG
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Wed Aug 14, 2013 8:27 am      Reply with quote
Barefootgirl wrote:

All I can say is that applying a > 1.0mm needle once per week for six weeks would leave my skin a swollen mess - no time to recover.

BFG


That was the initial recommendation when I started rolling in 2009, though people were using longer needles. It was pretty tough on my skin, though I definitely saw results.

The reason there were 6 rolls was because unless people were put under anesthesia, he did not feel that they were able to be needled densely enough in one sitting.

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Wed Aug 14, 2013 8:50 am      Reply with quote
bethany wrote:
That was the initial recommendation when I started rolling in 2009, though people were using longer needles. It was pretty tough on my skin, though I definitely saw results.

The reason there were 6 rolls was because unless people were put under anesthesia, he did not feel that they were able to be needled densely enough in one sitting.

Would you consider that you saw better results with 1x/week use of longer needles than with spacing out your rolls according to Setterfield's recs?

For the 1x/week, 6-roll pattern, how long was the break before you were supposed to go back to 1x/week, 6-rolls? I realize that info is probably buried in this thread but just can't face trying to dig it up. A quick answer would be appreciated.

Also, based on your experience with electric needlers v. dermarollers, do you think this heavy, frequent recommendation might apply mostly to the time when there were no auto-needlers available? It crossed my mind that the density issue could be an artifact of dermarollers. Since autoneedlers already have their needles more densely packed, the density issue could be a moot point now. And while the auto-needlers still hurt, IMO rollers hurt more. Both factors might make more frequent, less dense sessions attractive to both consumers and practitioners, regardless of any significant increase of positive results v. denser, less frequent rolls.
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Wed Aug 14, 2013 8:53 am      Reply with quote
Help, I am confused Cool

Would the weekly rolls be with needles longer than 1mm?

Doesn't this go against all the other advice historically that recommends a deep roll (1mm+) not sooner than 4-6 week intervals?


Thanks, BFG
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Wed Aug 14, 2013 9:20 am      Reply with quote
Barefootgirl wrote:
Help, I am confused Cool

Would the weekly rolls be with needles longer than 1mm?

Doesn't this go against all the other advice historically that recommends a deep roll (1mm+) not sooner than 4-6 week intervals?


Thanks, BFG

My understanding is that Fernandez is the pioneer, Setterfield is following up and refining his work. I believe Setterfield is the primary (or at least the original) proponent of a less aggressive treatment strategy.

IMHO Dr. F looks pretty darn good, and he's aggressively needled himself over 50 times. I don't know if Setterfield practices on himself. This is not a deal-breaker for me, because other factors may be figuring into Dr. F's good results, but it is nice to see some concrete results of at least one treatment option. Setterfield looks good, too, but I'm sure is not as old as Dr. F.

My thing is the pain. I don't know if I could stand 6 weeks in a row of long needle sessions, Dermajet or not, and regardless of any potential results.
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Wed Aug 14, 2013 10:06 am      Reply with quote
The general consensus has been between 4-6 weeks, based on the 30 day wound healing cycle...for 1mm+ needles. I am wondering if this weekly protocol is new or recommended for other skin issues.


BFG
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Wed Aug 14, 2013 10:13 am      Reply with quote
Now I am confused too Embarassed

Wish his book was out then we might have a more definitive answer.

I think though I may well stick to setterfield's ideas just now, given the fact that Im reading Carl Thornfeldt's book on at all time maintaining the skin barrier. That is unless I can see that you could combine the two approaches then we would have a winner!!

Bethany? BFG?
Anyone?
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