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Yubs
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Wed Aug 14, 2013 10:21 am      Reply with quote
Barefootgirl wrote:
The general consensus has been between 4-6 weeks, based on the 30 day wound healing cycle...for 1mm+ needles. I am wondering if this weekly protocol is new or recommended for other skin issues.
BFG

I'm not talking about any general consensus here on the forum or anywhere else. I'm talking about the difference between Dr. F's philosophy and Dr. S's.

My understanding is that Dr. F has always advocated this more aggressive needling strategy, regardless of where general consensus may have moved, and that it was his original approach to needling in the first place. Am I wrong about Dr. F original strategy? I realize I might be so if I am I'd like someone to tell me.

Regardless, I still would like to hear bethany's opinion on the results she got when following this more aggressive protocol v. the results she saw when following Setterfield's 30 day/6-week wound healing strategy. Unless I've misread and bethany never followed the 1x/week, 6 week strategy.
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Wed Aug 14, 2013 12:57 pm      Reply with quote
Yubs wrote:
Barefootgirl wrote:
The general consensus has been between 4-6 weeks, based on the 30 day wound healing cycle...for 1mm+ needles. I am wondering if this weekly protocol is new or recommended for other skin issues.
BFG

I'm not talking about any general consensus here on the forum or anywhere else. I'm talking about the difference between Dr. F's philosophy and Dr. S's.

My understanding is that Dr. F has always advocated this more aggressive needling strategy, regardless of where general consensus may have moved, and that it was his original approach to needling in the first place. Am I wrong about Dr. F original strategy? I realize I might be so if I am I'd like someone to tell me.

Regardless, I still would like to hear bethany's opinion on the results she got when following this more aggressive protocol v. the results she saw when following Setterfield's 30 day/6-week wound healing strategy. Unless I've misread and bethany never followed the 1x/week, 6 week strategy.


Dr. F's initial approach was to use the super long needles under full anesthesia, though it was never clear how frequently that would be repeated. I do remember reading some info from Europe saying 2x a year. Then in November 2007 he published an article comparing 1mm rolls to 3mm rolls and why he felt they were superior. It was around this time that he said 6 weekly rolls because you would not get the same needling density unless you were under full aesthesia as required for the 3mm needles. What he did not address was how often a series of 6 rolls could be repeated. (fyi...the article takes some time to load):

http://www.scribd.com/doc/46025449/Environ-Micro-Needling


Dr S did train under Dr F, and it is pretty apparent to me that they don't necessarily agree with each other on everything. Having read a gazillion documents in the thread I used to update (link below), plus more recent articles and Dr S's book, here is where I net out:

    - I think Dr. F has a much stronger understanding right now of what works and what doesn't based on his extensive experience.

    - I think Dr. S has some theories, but he doesn't necessarily have enough experience under his belt yet to fully prove them out. However, I do agree that his theory of collagenase if you roll more than every 30 days makes sense. Combine that with what we know about chronic (2 weeks max) vs. acute inflammation (ongoing), and I think less frequently is better.

    - I have read that embryonic healing is strongly dependent on environmental factors, ie ongoing floating in fluid comprised of all kinds of beneficial, hydrating, nutritive stuff. Until we can replicate that with our faces and it is explained, I don't find it to be relevant at this time.

My personal rolling history is that I rolled initially for 6 weeks in a row in 2008 in a very aggressive manner using .5mm and 1.0mm needles...only 302 Skincare products between rolls which I believe had some anti-inflammatory ingredients. I took a 2 month break, and then did one roll. I repeated that once more time. Approximately 4 months after my initial 6 week series of rolls was completed, I saw some interesting little bumps appear in my crows feet area, and at 6 months my crows feet were completely obliterated. I took several years off from rolling due 1) having no wrinkles and 2) way too much work. In 2012 I did a roll, and I did one with the My-M in 2013.

I was thinking about this last night, and whether or not I wanted to do another series of 6 rolls. After much thinking, I ultimately decided against it because I just don't need to be that aggressive since I have limited wrinkles, and I don't like the idea of ongoing inflammation. (even using the ReAura for 4-8 weeks is concerning to me). So my plan right now is to do a few more ReAura treatments (3 weeks total) and then finish with a needling treatment. That puts me at 4 weeks of inflammation trauma and I don't want to extend that, even though I will be using anti-inflammatory products in between treatments. I think that and a focus on barrier repair and pigmentation suppression will get me to where I want to be.

I still believe that less frequent trauma is better, and that needles over 1mm aren't necessary. (until someone has concrete data showing otherwise of course!) I will periodically do a roll with at least 3-6 months in between.

Yikes....that was a novel. Sorry about that!


Link to past CIT articles:
http://www.essentialdayspa.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=29860&highlight=cit

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Barefootgirl
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Wed Aug 14, 2013 1:21 pm      Reply with quote
Thank you for clarifying Bethany...that link appears recent (2013), so it looks like he's still a proponent of those weekly Medical/Surgical Roll CIT treatments.

For myself, until I get new info, will be following this guideline from Setterfield:

Understanding the predictable phases of wound healing dictates optimum timing for treatment and modalities to obtain greatest success. Prolonging the inflammatory phase (day 1-5) will result in more growth factors. Photomodulation and lymph drainage are valuable from day 2-14 and then cosmetic rolling combined with Sonophoresis and micro-current are beneficial to assist maximum delivery of nutrients to cells. Collagenase peaks at around day 14 to reorganize collagen fibrils, converting collagen 3 to collagen 1 and it therefore makes no sense to reinjure the skin more frequently than every 30 days.

Collagen synthesis requires Vitamin A (e.g. Retinyl Palmitate, Retinyl Acetate, Retinol or Tretinoin), Vitamin C (e.g. Magnesium Ascorbyl Phosphate, L-Ascorbic Acid), key amino acids (proline & glycine), bioflavonoids, growth factors, selenium, silicon allied with magnesium and calcium, copper peptides, zinc and iron (co-factors), hormones and essential fatty acids (for cell function and membranes). Stem cell products and platelet rich therapy hold enormous promise.

I do believe this advice will be updated soon by new research forthcoming. I keep my cosmetic rollers in the bedside drawer and use them several times/week. BFG
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Wed Aug 14, 2013 1:29 pm      Reply with quote
Barefootgirl wrote:
Thank you for clarifying Bethany...that link appears recent (2013), so it looks like he's still a proponent of those weekly Medical/Surgical Roll CIT treatments.

For myself, until I get new info, will be following this guideline from Setterfield:

Understanding the predictable phases of wound healing dictates optimum timing for treatment and modalities to obtain greatest success. Prolonging the inflammatory phase (day 1-5) will result in more growth factors. Photomodulation and lymph drainage are valuable from day 2-14 and then cosmetic rolling combined with Sonophoresis and micro-current are beneficial to assist maximum delivery of nutrients to cells. Collagenase peaks at around day 14 to reorganize collagen fibrils, converting collagen 3 to collagen 1 and it therefore makes no sense to reinjure the skin more frequently than every 30 days.

Collagen synthesis requires Vitamin A (e.g. Retinyl Palmitate, Retinyl Acetate, Retinol or Tretinoin), Vitamin C (e.g. Magnesium Ascorbyl Phosphate, L-Ascorbic Acid), key amino acids (proline & glycine), bioflavonoids, growth factors, selenium, silicon allied with magnesium and calcium, copper peptides, zinc and iron (co-factors), hormones and essential fatty acids (for cell function and membranes). Stem cell products and platelet rich therapy hold enormous promise.

I do believe this advice will be updated soon by new research forthcoming. I keep my cosmetic rollers in the bedside drawer and use them several times/week. BFG


This is consistent with what I am doing from a rolling standpoint, but less frequently. So are you saying you will be rolling every 30 days, or less frequently as well?

And unfortunately I can't do the cosmetic rollers at all...I am guaranteed to be red and puffy even with .15mm for at least 24 full hours whether I use products on not. So unfair!

ETA: I am eagerly awaiting any new research that he has!

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Wed Aug 14, 2013 1:47 pm      Reply with quote
bethany: tl;dr. Razz Laughing

Seriously, so totally kidding about that! Most excellent novel! Thank you very much for clarifying. I appreciate the time it took to put that together.

I remember seeing those hamburger face pictures of what I think were Dr. F's first patients...they still give me the willies when I think of them. Brutal.

However, since ours is an ongoing experiment in progress, once I figure out the right technique with Dermajet (if there is one, and if it doesn't crap out on me) I may give the 1x/week strategy a try with Lifeline and then give it a nice long break like you did. For an experiment, just because I can. It doesn't seem like it's terribly detrimental based on looking at Dr. F, even if it's not something we would want to do on a frequent basis.

If Dermajet doesn't work out I may just get some rollers or use only dermastamp. So I have a couple more questions:

Aside from the work-like aspect of rolling every week, how tolerable was the pain from week to week? For example, did it get progressively more painful from week to week, or did you find that you healed up fairly well by the time your next roll came around?

Also, did you experience any tightening of sag from doing the aggressive, frequent rolls? Or was it all wrinkle reduction?

Thanks again...
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Wed Aug 14, 2013 1:54 pm      Reply with quote
Yubs wrote:
Aside from the work-like aspect of rolling every week, how tolerable was the pain from week to week? For example, did it get progressively more painful from week to week, or did you find that you healed up fairly well by the time your next roll came around?

Also, did you experience any tightening of sag from doing the aggressive, frequent rolls? Or was it all wrinkle reduction?

Thanks again...


The pain was pretty consistent from week to week...3-4 days of redness, tightness, and bruising just around my eyes. I was looking pretty decent by the time I had to do another one.

And zero improvement (that I noticed) for sagging...primarily just wrinkle reduction. FYI that it did zilch for my forehead wrinkles, though it helped my glabellas a bit (mine are primarily from sleeping on my side). But the crows feet and cross-hatching under my eyes had a HUGE improvement.

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Yubs
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Wed Aug 14, 2013 1:57 pm      Reply with quote
bethany wrote:
Yubs wrote:
Aside from the work-like aspect of rolling every week, how tolerable was the pain from week to week? For example, did it get progressively more painful from week to week, or did you find that you healed up fairly well by the time your next roll came around?

Also, did you experience any tightening of sag from doing the aggressive, frequent rolls? Or was it all wrinkle reduction?

Thanks again...


The pain was pretty consistent from week to week...3-4 days of redness, tightness, and bruising just around my eyes. I was looking pretty decent by the time I had to do another one.

And zero improvement (that I noticed) for sagging...primarily just wrinkle reduction. FYI that it did zilch for my forehead wrinkles, though it helped my glabellas a bit (mine are primarily from sleeping on my side). But the crows feet and cross-hatching under my eyes had a HUGE improvement.

Thanks. One more question: any negatives that you could potentially pin on the frequent aggressive rolls?
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Wed Aug 14, 2013 2:01 pm      Reply with quote
Yubs wrote:
Thanks. One more question: any negatives that you could potentially pin on the frequent aggressive rolls?


Not at the time. But based on what I know now, I don't think I personally would do more than 2 in a row. or 4 if you really want to push the envelope.

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Wed Aug 14, 2013 2:14 pm      Reply with quote
bethany wrote:
Yubs wrote:
Thanks. One more question: any negatives that you could potentially pin on the frequent aggressive rolls?


Not at the time. But based on what I know now, I don't think I personally would do more than 2 in a row. or 4 if you really want to push the envelope.

So no long term negatives, either? Just clarifying, as you said "Not at the time".

So...not at *this* time, either, meaning nothing happening in the present that could be attributed to over-needling...correct? Do you think maybe your skin barrier problems came from that?

FWIW, I probably won't be able to get all the way through *one* sequence, let alone plan for four. Rolling Eyes At this point I'm still considering whether or not to attempt, so all this info is very helpful.
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Wed Aug 14, 2013 2:34 pm      Reply with quote
I won't do a deep needling/stamping session any more frequently than once every 4-6 weeks, but I am thinking we will get updated advice on this in the near future, so I am still open to changing this regimen.

I find the cosmetic rolling uncomfortable at times, but not at others, it's strange...the only time it is very uncomfortable is when combinated with Vitamin C, likely due to the low pH. I don't combine them often - usually with hormone topicals or retinoids.

Yubs - I learned ways to mitigate the pain - with Emla, it helps me to user thicker plastic covers and to follow soon after cleansing with the hydrogel masks.

BFG
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Wed Aug 14, 2013 3:26 pm      Reply with quote
Yubs wrote:
bethany wrote:
Yubs wrote:
Thanks. One more question: any negatives that you could potentially pin on the frequent aggressive rolls?


Not at the time. But based on what I know now, I don't think I personally would do more than 2 in a row. or 4 if you really want to push the envelope.

So no long term negatives, either? Just clarifying, as you said "Not at the time".

So...not at *this* time, either, meaning nothing happening in the present that could be attributed to over-needling...correct? Do you think maybe your skin barrier problems came from that?

FWIW, I probably won't be able to get all the way through *one* sequence, let alone plan for four. Rolling Eyes At this point I'm still considering whether or not to attempt, so all this info is very helpful.


OH...I did not meet 2 or more sequences! I meant 2 or 4 rolls in a row (with a week between each one).

As far as my skin barrier issues, the needling could have definitely contributed to that. Especially since in the old days many of us used Retin A right after a roll. Shock Embarassed Shock Plus I had done Fraxel before that. All I know is that despite me not using acids that frequently, my skin is more sensitive now than ever. Sad

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Wed Aug 14, 2013 4:56 pm      Reply with quote
Okay, got it. I think I will attempt to give it a go with 4 rolls in a row, see how I do. But not for a couple of more weeks at least. Possibly not until after my kitchen is done. Remodeling is not the best environment to be trying to perform sterile procedures, even if you're not in the same room with the remodel. I wish to heaven I could just move out until it's done. They're supposed to start next week so I may not needle at all for a while, given this "new" (everything old is new again at some point, I guess) development of a series of fairly aggressive rolls in weekly succession.

Sorry to hear about your ongoing skin sensitivity, Bethany. Sucks, for sure. Thanks again for all the advice!

BFG, I've never understood...why does saran wrap make a difference with numbing cream? It seems like some trouble. It's not really the pain afterwards that bothers me, it's during. Anything I can do to help with that, I will try.
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Wed Aug 14, 2013 5:29 pm      Reply with quote
Yubs wrote:


BFG, I've never understood...why does saran wrap make a difference with numbing cream? It seems like some trouble. It's not really the pain afterwards that bothers me, it's during. Anything I can do to help with that, I will try.


Not BFG, but I think it has to do with heat.
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Wed Aug 14, 2013 5:54 pm      Reply with quote
I don't know why ...all I know is that keeping the numbing cream under plastic until just before the procedure, assists in the numbing process - i.e.- makes it more effective.

I stumbled upon an even better solution with thicker sheets of plastic, cutting them into shapes that mirror parts of my face and then using those instead of the wrap.

I wouldn't be able to needle without it.

BFG
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Fri Aug 16, 2013 8:55 am      Reply with quote
I did my last needling without plastic wrap over my EMLA cream. I didn't notice it less effective. Except I forgot to apply on my forehead and that hurt. I can't imagine doing the whole face and neck without some numbing. The forehead was done with .5 depth and anything else and I would have been jumping off the table.

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Fri Aug 16, 2013 9:51 am      Reply with quote
Stepping back to Setterfield's comment here:

Photomodulation and lymph drainage are valuable from day 2-14 and then cosmetic rolling combined with Sonophoresis and micro-current are beneficial to assist maximum delivery of nutrients to cells.

I've theorized that one of the reasons Fernandes and his patients look so good is because of the sonophoresis and nutrients post rolling.

I've looked into sonophoresis machines for home use in the past and threw my hands up in confusion. Now I see mention of micro-current to assist with the process. Given all the discussions here on micro-current, are there any devices that most recommend for this? Anyone know?


Thanks a bunch, BFG
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Fri Aug 16, 2013 10:05 am      Reply with quote
Please excuse me, I see there is a very recent thread on microcurrent.


BFG
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Fri Aug 16, 2013 10:12 am      Reply with quote
Barefootgirl wrote:
Stepping back to Setterfield's comment here:

Photomodulation and lymph drainage are valuable from day 2-14 and then cosmetic rolling combined with Sonophoresis and micro-current are beneficial to assist maximum delivery of nutrients to cells.

I've theorized that one of the reasons Fernandes and his patients look so good is because of the sonophoresis and nutrients post rolling.

I've looked into sonophoresis machines for home use in the past and threw my hands up in confusion. Now I see mention of micro-current to assist with the process. Given all the discussions here on micro-current, are there any devices that most recommend for this? Anyone know?



Hi BFG, check out the Squoom or a Squoom knockoff like the Merbe that I have. I did use it on my first/last DermaJet treatment and it really helped with the bruising and lymph I got under my eye area. It got rid of the strawberry type blood spots on both my under eye area and neck quicker then I think they would have gone away on their own. I wrote a little bit about it on the DermaJet thread.


SQOOM significantly improves the skin’s own production of collagen and elastin, sustainably improving the skin’s structure, regenerating problem skin and improving the overall appearance of the skin – making it brighter, firmer and more youthful. These results occur within a very short time frame. With longer term use, the effects are even more pronounced.

It connects the iontophoresis with ultrasound (sonophoresis) in a unique way. In other words: The ultrasound is the doorbell, and the ionophoresis subsequently opens innumerable doors. And that happens one million times in each second.

http://www.sqoom.com/en/meta/sqoom-how-it-works/

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Fri Aug 16, 2013 1:03 pm      Reply with quote
Thanks Cookie...looking into it.

Looks like the Fernandes book is now available:


http://www.amazon.com/Illustrated-Guide-Percutaneous-Collagen-Induction/dp/1850972532/ref=reg_hu-rd_add_1_dp


I wonder if the Setterfield book was delayed until this was released...just a speculation, who knows.

BFG
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Fri Aug 16, 2013 1:33 pm      Reply with quote
Barefootgirl wrote:
Thanks Cookie...looking into it.

Looks like the Fernandes book is now available:


http://www.amazon.com/Illustrated-Guide-Percutaneous-Collagen-Induction/dp/1850972532/ref=reg_hu-rd_add_1_dp


I wonder if the Setterfield book was delayed until this was released...just a speculation, who knows.

BFG


Here is the other Fernandes book that is not out yet:
http://www.amazon.com/Your-Skin-Factory-Desmond-Fernandes/dp/0957668104/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1376685089&sr=1-2&keywords=Fernandes

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Fri Aug 16, 2013 1:42 pm      Reply with quote
My skincare habit is starting to get real expensive, LOL


BFG
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Fri Aug 16, 2013 7:16 pm      Reply with quote
Ugh...had a Visia analysis done today after not doing much to my skin for a few years due to work and life distractions. While not much has changed over 5 years (a good thing), it was enough to get me to pull out the needles again! I will be doing an aggressive treatment this weekend so I can get those wrinkles kicked to the curb.

Bring on the collagen!

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Mon Aug 19, 2013 11:34 am      Reply with quote
So the SQOOM is basically an ultrasound, right?
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Mon Aug 19, 2013 11:47 am      Reply with quote
ko6kin. wrote:
So the SQOOM is basically an ultrasound, right?


Correct, using fragmented HA gels for increased penetration.

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Mon Aug 19, 2013 12:07 pm      Reply with quote
Thanks Bethany
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