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DermaRoller

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Yubs
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Thu May 15, 2008 9:49 am      Reply with quote
From the abstract bethany posted:
Quote:
This study also evaluated the penetration forces and needle length. Interestingly, after evaluation of all the biopsies, new collagen fibers were only found at the corium not deeper than 0.5mm to 0.6 mm. Even though 1.5 mm needles were used, no new collagen fibers could be found in the sub dermal layer illustrating no benefit to using longer more invasive needles.


Before I say this, let me preface it with the statement that if we find we can use shorter needles with the same results, NO ONE will be happier than me. The prospect of not using any of my current pain alleviation measures pleases me greatly. Laughing

However, drawing the conclusion that there is no benefit to using longer needles just because new collagen fibers were not found below a certain depth could be false--especially since they specifically state that only 1.5mm needles were used. That is, there may be benefit conveyed by using the longer needles, even though new collagen was not found at the longest depth of the needle. I cannot know for sure because I'm not a scientist or a dermatologist...but neither can they, really, since they didn't use any shorter needles as a control. My feeling (as someone who is trained to read research) is that the conclusion drawn does not necessarily follow from the results of the study.

All the stuff we've read so far to do with actual collagen induction (rather than penetration of actives) has been studied using the longer needles. A different study done with shorter needles and control groups that showed the same amount of new collagen fibers for shorter as well as longer needles would be nice to confirm this. But who knows if that's out there yet?

Just sayin'. It's intriguing, though.
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Thu May 15, 2008 11:00 am      Reply with quote
Cadia, what barrier repair cream would you suggest for dry-ness after rolling?

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bethany
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Thu May 15, 2008 11:40 am      Reply with quote
Yubs wrote:
From the abstract bethany posted:
Quote:
This study also evaluated the penetration forces and needle length. Interestingly, after evaluation of all the biopsies, new collagen fibers were only found at the corium not deeper than 0.5mm to 0.6 mm. Even though 1.5 mm needles were used, no new collagen fibers could be found in the sub dermal layer illustrating no benefit to using longer more invasive needles.


Before I say this, let me preface it with the statement that if we find we can use shorter needles with the same results, NO ONE will be happier than me. The prospect of not using any of my current pain alleviation measures pleases me greatly. Laughing

However, drawing the conclusion that there is no benefit to using longer needles just because new collagen fibers were not found below a certain depth could be false--especially since they specifically state that only 1.5mm needles were used. That is, there may be benefit conveyed by using the longer needles, even though new collagen was not found at the longest depth of the needle. I cannot know for sure because I'm not a scientist or a dermatologist...but neither can they, really, since they didn't use any shorter needles as a control. My feeling (as someone who is trained to read research) is that the conclusion drawn does not necessarily follow from the results of the study.

All the stuff we've read so far to do with actual collagen induction (rather than penetration of actives) has been studied using the longer needles. A different study done with shorter needles and control groups that showed the same amount of new collagen fibers for shorter as well as longer needles would be nice to confirm this. But who knows if that's out there yet?

Just sayin'. It's intriguing, though.


Yubs, thos eare very good points. I sure wish there was more information out there!

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Thu May 15, 2008 2:02 pm      Reply with quote
mogulicious wrote:
Cadia, what barrier repair cream would you suggest for dry-ness after rolling?

I use La Roche-Posay Cicaplast which I discovered by chance. It hides the flaking completely and makes peeling so much more fun Very Happy
Quote:
Cicaplast accellerates the skin barrier recovery process with a formula containing:
Mineral complex copper/zinc/manganese: These three active ingredients are shown in vitro to encourage to promote epidermal barrier recovery.
Madecassoside: For the first time, Madecassoside extracted from Centella Asiatica, known for its skin's recovery properties, has been isolated and purified over 95% and mixed into Cicaplast. It is to help restore the balance in the epidermis barrier and optimal skin recovery.
A resistant texture acts as a barrier to protect the damaged skin from external aggressions in order to create an ideal recovery situation.

Indications:
Irritated, distressed or post-procedure skin
Flaking, chapped skin, post-cosmetic peels
Cadia
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Thu May 15, 2008 2:26 pm      Reply with quote
Bethany, I've seen that study too. I chose to forget about it because I doubt doctors would use the longer needled ones if they weren't beneficial. All the before after images tend to be from the treatments with longer needles and if the same results were obtainable with shorter ones, my guess is they would all happily switch to that and a much shorter recovery time.

There are tons of info out there, but it can be a bit hard to find. Have you tried the search term "percutaneous collagen induction"? What was most enlightening and convincing for me, was the article by Dr. Fernandes that I posted here again yesterday.
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Thu May 15, 2008 2:31 pm      Reply with quote
Keliu wrote:
I've just received a promotional email from Clearskin Care. They're offering 30% off their skin rollers at the moment. Their website is:

www.clearskincare.com.au


Keliu - Thanks for this. Did it mention how long the offer lasts?

I just sent them an email asking for research showing that .75mm is sufficient for collagen generation (as opposed to the 1.0mm or 1.5mm) and am waiting to hear back before I buy.

But the quality of their product sounds great, especially the fact that it lasts 12 months.

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Thu May 15, 2008 2:44 pm      Reply with quote
Cadia wrote:
Bethany, I've seen that study too. I chose to forget about it because I doubt doctors would use the longer needled ones if they weren't beneficial. All the before after images tend to be from the treatments with longer needles and if the same results were obtainable with shorter ones, my guess is they would all happily switch to that and a much shorter recovery time.

There are tons of info out there, but it can be a bit hard to find. Have you tried the search term "percutaneous collagen induction"? What was most enlightening and convincing for me, was the article by Dr. Fernandes that I posted here again yesterday.


Cadia, I did a ton of reading last night and today, including the article that you shared.

I saw lots of info regarding the longer needles being used for elimination of deeper scarring, and lots of stuff saying that .5mm was sufficient in other cases. But no real comparisons of needle length and the collagen generated in each scenario.

Being completely honest, I am looking to buy the shortest needle to accomplish my goals simply because I don't like pain and don't want the hassle of numbing cream. I know...I'm a wuss AND I'm lazy! Sad

We'll see what Dr. McCaffery says in response to my email...if there is no real research showing what I am looking for, I will opt for the 1.5mm and suck it up! Very Happy

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Thu May 15, 2008 3:50 pm      Reply with quote
Where does everyone buy your dermaroller? What brand is the best one?
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Thu May 15, 2008 4:04 pm      Reply with quote
Bethany, I agree, it's not published much information about that.

There might not be that significant which length to choose if you're just after increasing collagen, but I believe you need the longer ones in order to thicken the dermis and to me, that is no less important.
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Thu May 15, 2008 4:10 pm      Reply with quote
ruk1 wrote:
Where does everyone buy your dermaroller? What brand is the best one?


I purchased my first roller (1.0mm) from the Nova Clinic for $105.00.

Last month I purchased my 0.5mm & 1.5mm rollers from this site: http://www.dermarollers.us/ They have a good sale going on now (and free shipping), plus if you use coupon code 248f3 during check out, you receive another 20% off your roller. Today, May 15th, is the last day that coupon code is valid. I'm very pleased with both brands as the needles are very sharp and fine.

Jen
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Thu May 15, 2008 4:20 pm      Reply with quote
JenJ wrote:
ruk1 wrote:
Where does everyone buy your dermaroller? What brand is the best one?


I purchased my first roller (1.0mm) from the Nova Clinic for $105.00.

Last month I purchased my 0.5mm & 1.5mm rollers from this site: http://www.dermarollers.us/ They have a good sale going on now (and free shipping), plus if you use coupon code 248f3 during check out, you receive another 20% off your roller. Today, May 15th, is the last day that coupon code is valid. I'm very pleased with both brands as the needles are very sharp and fine.

Jen


Thank you so much for the discount code. This is very nice of you to share.
bethany
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Thu May 15, 2008 8:13 pm      Reply with quote
bethany wrote:
Keliu wrote:
I've just received a promotional email from Clearskin Care. They're offering 30% off their skin rollers at the moment. Their website is:

www.clearskincare.com.au


I just sent them an email asking for research showing that .75mm is sufficient for collagen generation (as opposed to the 1.0mm or 1.5mm) and am waiting to hear back before I buy.



Well, writing to Clearskincare was an exercise in futility. When I asked if they had any research, Hugh first told me:

Quote:
The 0.75mm needle was chosen because it is long enough to stimulate collagen and elastin, proof is that it causes spot bleeding meaning that it has passed through the epidermal/dermal junction and is thereby stimulating the upper dermis creating collagen and elastin, yet short enough not to cause pain or major bleeding thereby inhibiting the user to effectively perform the treatment on themselves and just the right length to be durable and able to last for 12 months with daily use.


I then said that sounds good, but do you have any research info illustrating this. Hugh's reply:

Quote:
No, we do not have clinical proof/research papers (this is all relatively new and we are small family company who do not have the resources to undertake this work), in exactly the same way that the people who are telling you about the 1mm or the 1.5mm needles do not have clinical proof (nor any relationship with clinicians of any kind) to back their heresay.

This is not rocket science, I think you can see that the logic of our statements is sound.


Hmmm...he sounds a little defensive! But based on the claims that they make around their experience and design, I certainly expected there to be more dermatological science there...

Claims from their website:
Quote:
Clearskincare rollers represent two years of research, design, development and patient trials by Dr Philippa McCaffery to bring an affordable skin roller to clinicians and the public....The Clearskincare Skin Roller range is unique, they are the only rollers available worldwide to be certified as a medical device and designed to be reused (homecare rollers last for 12 months), constructed using the finest quality stainless steel needles and autoclavable medical grade plastic roller and handle. http://www.clearskincare.com.au/


And from their online store:
Quote:

I designed the Clearskincare Roller range to maximise results for improving the appearance of acne scars, surgical, chicken pox and all indented scars lines, wrinkles, stretchmarks as well as thinning hair whilst minimising downtime and pain. Maximising results whilst minimising downtime and pain is achieved by the careful selection of needle length to target the specific areas of the epidermis and dermis to achieve these goals.

To achieve these desired results needle length and gauge are the most critical factors when selecting skin rollers. Clearslincare rollers use 0.25mm gauge needles, the thickest usable needle gauge to stimulate maximum collagen and elastin whilst not causing scarring. Thicker needles will cause scarring, unnecessary pain and bleeding, thinner needles will not stimulate enough collagen or elastin to be effective.

http://stores.ebay.com.au/Clearskincare-acne-scar-hair-loss


Yet they have NO RESEARCH backing up these claims?

Editing to add:

Hugh also said the following in his inital reply to me:

Quote:
Others rollers on the market were designed to be disposable and use inferior needles and toothbrush grade plastics. They were designed by engineers who have no medical background or understanding of scar, anti aging skin treatment, hair loss or any understanding of the human anatomy, hence their generic choices of needle lengths (0.25mm, 0.5mm, 1mm, 1.5mm, 2.5mm etc.) that were chosen purely for their ease of manufacture from an engineering perspective. There was no anatomical or results driven reasoning for the choice of these generic needle lengths.

It should also be noted that when using needles the longer the needle the quicker they become blunt. A 1.5mm needle will last only 10-12 treatments, it will also be painful (you will need to use some form of topical anesthetic) and bloody. A 1mm will be the same but not quite to the same degree (it will last 1.5 to 3 months max). The pain and excessive bleeding inhibits users from performing effective treatments on themselves. The 0.75mm needle was chosen because it is long enough to stimulate collagen and elastin, proof is that it causes spot bleeding meaning that it has passed through the epidermal/dermal junction and is thereby stimulating the upper dermis creating collagen and elastin, yet short enough not to cause pain or major bleeding thereby inhibiting the user to effectively perform the treatment on themselves and just the right length to be durable and able to last for 12 months with daily use.


So how did they choose the .75mm?? Let me guess...they put all the needle lengths on slips of paper in a hat, and then pulled one out....

Yes folks, we have a WINNER!!! The.75mm is our new STAR! Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes

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Fri May 16, 2008 12:53 am      Reply with quote
bethany wrote:
Keliu wrote:
I've just received a promotional email from Clearskin Care. They're offering 30% off their skin rollers at the moment. Their website is:

www.clearskincare.com.au


Keliu - Thanks for this. Did it mention how long the offer lasts?

I just sent them an email asking for research showing that .75mm is sufficient for collagen generation (as opposed to the 1.0mm or 1.5mm) and am waiting to hear back before I buy.

But the quality of their product sounds great, especially the fact that it lasts 12 months.


Their email doesn't give any dates on how long the offer lasts.

I actually have both the .75mm roller from the Clearskin Clinic and the 1.5mm roller from the Nova Clinic. To be perfectly honest, I don't find any difference in terms of pain or results with either roller - IMO using the .75mm roller is just as unpleasant as the 1.5mm.

If I had to pick a favourite roller (I have also used the one from Thailand sold on Ebay) it would be the 1.5mm from the Nova Clinic. It is beautifully made, the needles are sharp and sturdy and do not bend easily.

There is also no visible difference in rolling with the 1.5mm to the .75mm - my face does not get covered in blood with the 1.5mm.

As for looking into all the research on skin needling - most research is based on trials carried out in clinics by professionals. For research on home-use, I don't think you can beat the experience of the "roller girls" on this forum! It's been a case of trial and error for us all and we all have our individual routines - but the general consensus of opinion is that skin needling really works.
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Fri May 16, 2008 5:54 am      Reply with quote
Keliu wrote:
I actually have both the .75mm roller from the Clearskin Clinic and the 1.5mm roller from the Nova Clinic. To be perfectly honest, I don't find any difference in terms of pain or results with either roller - IMO using the .75mm roller is just as unpleasant as the 1.5mm.

If I had to pick a favourite roller (I have also used the one from Thailand sold on Ebay) it would be the 1.5mm from the Nova Clinic. It is beautifully made, the needles are sharp and sturdy and do not bend easily.


Keliu, thank you VERY much for that perspective...if the .75mm is just as bad as the 1.5mm, then I may as well go for the 1.5mm.

And I found your posting last night where you described your new roller...I found the same Dr. Roller on ebay and and going to pick one up today.

And if it wasn't for the "roller girls" sharing their feedback and successes, I wouldn't even be considering poking myself with 192 crazy little needles! I am indeed very appreciative. Smile

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Fri May 16, 2008 7:00 am      Reply with quote
I need your help.
I just got my light stim. I roll on Friday nights. So my question is... When should I use my light in relation to my rolling. I am thinking do the light first and then roll.
What do you all think?
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Fri May 16, 2008 1:13 pm      Reply with quote
sherryf13500 wrote:
I need your help.
I just got my light stim. I roll on Friday nights. So my question is... When should I use my light in relation to my rolling. I am thinking do the light first and then roll.
What do you all think?


Since LED reduces inflammation, I would not do it right before the roll, nor would I do it the day (or several!) after. I read last night in one of the studies that the longer the inflammation stage lasts, the higher the quality of the collagen that is produced.

Keep in mind that LEDS are best not used every day since your skin needs time to recover from that too, so taking a break from LED to roll will be fine.

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Fri May 16, 2008 2:34 pm      Reply with quote
I have a Quasar SP, so Bethany (and anyone else who may have an opinion), are you suggesting to not use this at all while rolling, say within a 6-week treatment period? Also, if one takes a break from weekly (long needles) rolling, but continues to use a .25 for product absorbtion, would you think it would be ok to use the SP?

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Fri May 16, 2008 5:43 pm      Reply with quote
bethany wrote:
Quote:
I read last night in one of the studies that the longer the inflammation stage lasts, the higher the quality of the collagen that is produced.


ha Well, if that's the case, then between the rolling and the retin-A, I should look like I'm 16 again inside of two weeks! Rolling Eyes Laughing I mean I have NEVER had anything like this happne to me on purpose! I itch, I'm peeling, and my co-workers are calling me "Scarlett" and asking me if it's contagious. Shock I'm hanging with it, though. But I don't know when I'm going to be able to roll again. My face is okay but the lower half of my neck and my decollatege are defnitely off-limits for the time being. I may even wait a month and just do retin-A and light treatments and then start with the rolling again. I haven't decided yet.

mogulicious, I have SP, too, and I think just do your LED treatments a couple of days before or a couple of days after rolling. Not right before or right after. I did a light treatment right after my first roll and it calmed the inflammation a great deal, and then I read about inflammation and began to think maybe calming is not what we should be after. But IMO there's no need to stop altogether. I'm not...just spacing the light treatments strategically. In fact, I just bought a ProLight amber, and you know I'm not going to put off using my new light for six weeks because I'm rolling! Razz
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Fri May 16, 2008 6:23 pm      Reply with quote
How close to the eyes should I roll? I have the 1.5 Dr. Roller. Should I roll the brow pads? How 'bout directly under my eyes? I'm thinking, if I stretch the skin tight in both locations (away from the eye orbit) I might be able to get away with rolling in those places?
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Fri May 16, 2008 6:25 pm      Reply with quote
Bethany, could you please post a link to the study you referenced about inflammation? Thank you!
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Fri May 16, 2008 7:11 pm      Reply with quote
Here is something interesting I read on treatment cycles...with an answer directly from from Horst Leibl, the creater of the Dermaroller:

Quote:
Hello Mr. Liebl,

In my quest to learn more about your DermaRoller and CIT process I have read through your website and found it very informative. However, I am a little uncertain about a few issues concerning the treatment protocol with the 1.5 mm size, and hope you can share some additional details with me.

I understand that the entire process of how the Dermaroller works is based on the wound-healing cycle and that a cascade of actions is stimulated by the micro-injuries created by the DermaRoller in the dermis. I’ve read several articles that describe the three phases of wound healing (Inflammation, Proliferation, Maturation). However, I am not clear on one issue. When a new sheet of collagen is laid down just above the dermis and is populating with Collagen Type III for approximately 21 days from the onset of the “injury”, it then slowly converts from Type III to Type I. From that point on, the collagen fibers composed of Type I begin to strengthen and the greatest effects of skin remodeling take place and continue to do so for upwards of a year (or longer).

Based on this, I am wondering how it is possible to tell so early on after an initial DermaRoller treatment if you require another treatment (or more) 4 to 6 weeks later. The Maturation phase extends beyond 4 to 6 weeks and this is when the greatest results are developing and become more visable….right? Essentially how can you ’see’ results that haven’t had a chance to mature yet?
I am also wondering why just 3 treatments instead of 4 or 6, etc., should additional treatments be deemed necessary. Is the Maturation phase interrupted in some way by incorporating additional treatments with the 1.5 mm too close together? Some other ‘experts’ are claiming that the 1.5 mm size can be used several times a week for an indefinite period of time. But this just does not make ANY sense to me based on the wound-healing cascade and life cycle.

I am truly hoping that you can help me understand the reasoning behind the different Treatment Instructions for the 1.5 mm and why they should be stopped after 3 procedures during the first year of using the DermaRoller.

Thank you so much for your time and help. I look forward to hearing back from you.

Regards,
XXX

(Quote referenced from website) “According to the individual skin condition, 1 to 3 procedures, separated by 4 to 6 weeks, are sufficient to resurface the skin. As aging continues, we recommend one refresher-CIT every year. Between the CITs and after the last one, you can support the results of the CIT by using the Home Care Dermaroller in combination with high-end peptide serums.”


FYI - the Home Care Dermaroller mentioned above is .5mm.

His reply...

Quote:
Thank you very much indeed for your thoughtful mail. I have received thousands, but never such a detailed concern. Let me explain what we know so far. It is widely believed that skin reacts to needling by the wound healing cascade. But if one looks closer and goes more in cell biology than the picture suddenly changes dramatically. First we have to answer the question what is an injury? The best definition would be: The disruption of tissue integrity. Now the next question would be: Does a fine, precisely tooled, non traumatic needle cause an injury? Yes and no. Certainly cells may be damaged and capillaries may be punctured. A wound can only heal, when certain skin cells are stimulated by signals be become active. If there is a bleeding wound, naturally TGF (transmitted Growth Factors), usually transported by blood platelets, would send signals to various cells to become active, and in the end fibroblasts would transform into collagen fibers for wound closure. This we would call wound repair by fibrosis. Until this point school of thoughts is clear.

But if we have a closer look at needling that does not go further the average thickness of the dermis of about 1,5 mm, the picture changes dramatically. Although needles may puncture some capillaries, that are “emptied” by visible petechiae on the surface, their TGF amount would not be sufficient to trigger wound healing. Matter of fact, if skin cells receive injury signals transmitted by nerve cells (about 200 per square centimeter just below the basal membrane), they release also TGF. Unfortunately this is widely unknown.

We made experiments for years with MatTek and Biosciences in he USA in order to find out what causes new collagen formation in the dermis. We used cultured skin cells (without blood vessels, and therefore without TGF that derivate from platelets)) and needled it in various depths. By measuring the electrical skin resistance first we could see a significant change in electrical conductivity between intra- and extra cellular signal exchange. We clearly could harvest new collagen fibers after needling. Why they differ in amount – we do not know (yet).

Quote:
The needling interval is a good question and we do not have yet the right answer. But if one looks at the fast response to needling of acne scars, we know that an interval of about 6 weeks is sufficient.
Personally I am more on your side and I would like to see longer intervals. But at present, in so called modern times, we have a problem: people are impatient and they “want it now”. Although you should not forget, many physicians are often pushed for fast results. They actually should be the protagonists and tell people to be patient. However, why should a new cell formation influence the previous needle induced ones?

As all cases are different we only can give guidelines, but patient and physician in the end must decide. Also do not forget one point: The average knowledge of physiology. People are impatient and most of them are not interested in what happens in their body. We live in competitive times of individuals, and each one wants to be the first and best looking. This is the reason behind why we publish only fractions of medical knowledge.

Even for physicians needling and its mechanism of action is widely unknown. I just came back from a lecture and workshop and only after the lecture, they suddenly stood up and admitted that “they did not know how cell biology works”.

I hope that this answers your questions to some extent. If you have more, please do not hesitate to contact me again. Then I shall guide to to the right articles to get a closer picture.

Last but not least. To any ablative, cutting or cell damaging procedure the body will respond with its repair mechanism – fibrosis, an unformatted bundle like collagen. To micro needling (provided the right needles are used) the body responds with cell regeneration and new collagen that integrates into the existing collagen formation and its cross linked pattern. It is as simply as that.

Best regards
Horst Liebl

http://dermaroller.wordpress.com/2008/04/25/question-about-treatment-intervals/

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Fri May 16, 2008 7:50 pm      Reply with quote
Face4ward wrote:
Bethany, could you please post a link to the study you referenced about inflammation? Thank you!


I was close on my recollection...I had said higher quality collagen, but it was higher quantity.

Here is the quote:

Quote:
Collagen type III is the dominant form of collagen in the early wound-healing phase and becomes maximal 5 to 7 days after injury. The longer the initial phase, the greater the production of collagen type III. ...Collagen type III is gradually replaced by collagen type I over a period of a year or more,which gives increased tensile strength..


Here are the phases:
Quote:
Phase I: inflammation, which starts immediately after the injury
Phase II: proliferation (tissue formation), which starts after about 5 days and lasts about 8 weeks
Phase III: tissue remodeling, from 8 weeks to
about 1 year


Quote:
In standard wounds, the inflammatory phase ends after about 5 to 6 days, as proliferation and tissue formation ensue.


http://www.dermogenesis.com/roll-cit/Clinics_of_N_Am_2005.pdf

BTW, anyone rolling should make sure that they are getting enough Vit C in order to faciliate the production of collagen...the document above points that out very clearly.

They also generally recommend that skin be prepped for rolling with Vit A for a period of time prior to rolling if there is significant sun damage, which means that Retin-A users are already ahead of the game.

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Fri May 16, 2008 7:55 pm      Reply with quote
mogulicious wrote:
I have a Quasar SP, so Bethany (and anyone else who may have an opinion), are you suggesting to not use this at all while rolling, say within a 6-week treatment period? Also, if one takes a break from weekly (long needles) rolling, but continues to use a .25 for product absorbtion, would you think it would be ok to use the SP?


The .25mm is too short to induce collagen, so you should be able to use your LED at any time with that one.

Based on what I just posted above regarding the inflammation phases, I am planning to not use my LED for a week after a 1.5mm roll.

Quote:
In standard wounds, the inflammatory phase ends after about 5 to 6 days, as proliferation and tissue formation ensue.

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Yubs
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Fri May 16, 2008 8:25 pm      Reply with quote
bethany, thanks for that great link! Quoting you:

Quote:
Based on what I just posted above regarding the inflammation phases, I am planning to not use my LED for a week after a 1.5mm roll.


So you're going to extend the wait periods between your rolls now?

This all has me wondering still more about treatment intensity. Does anyone have any idea or have they read anything about the treatment intensity the experts like Mr. Liebl are talking about? That is, at what intensity does a 1.5mm roll warrant a protracted break? Is it any roll with the 1.5mm? Does the standard home roll that us weenies Wink are able to give ourselves warrant the break, or is it only a more aggressive roll such as brave souls like polkadot are able to give themselves?

Like I said, just wonderin'. Some gauge/standard measure of treatment intensity would be helpful. I wonder if Mr. Liebl would answer a question like that?
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Fri May 16, 2008 8:29 pm      Reply with quote
Hi ladies,

Please forgive me if this is a little off topic, but it's been awhile since I read this thread. (Okay, a few weeks, but I've read so many other threads they're all getting muddled up in my mind... Laughing ) Anyways, I finally caved and bought a roller (1mm) to help with acne scarring and hyperpigmentation, as well as a few fine lines on the side. However, after using it twice, once very lightly, since I didn't realize how much it would sting Shock , and then again yesterday more aggressively, to the point where I started bleeding and got the "sunburnt" look some have described, I'm getting a little nervous, since it seems to have made my skin drier than it was, exacerbating the fine lines on my forehead (I'm 21, so they're not *too* bad, but I'd like to fix them while I can), and some areas have a very obviously "rolled" look, if you catch my drift (sort of bumpy, like little roller tracks). I'm sure this has all been covered earlier, but, like I said it's been awhile since I've read over this thread, and I don't really have the time or wherewithal right now to go back over it. Basically what I'm asking is, is this normal and should I keep going? Or should I stop?

If anyone reading could take a moment to put my fears to rest, I would be EXTREMELY grateful.

(For reference, I followed the rolling on the first day with Avene Eluage retinol gel and cream, and CP serum about half an hour to an hour later, and on the second day with Lumene Vit C drops and cream, as well as the Eluage).

Regardless, I want to thank all of you ladies, I've learned so much from you! Very Happy
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