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Sun Apr 22, 2007 10:13 pm  |
Sue from Skin Interactive posted this article, similar to previous research notions on DAME.
http://www.cosmeticsurgery-news.com/article3001.html |
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Simple but No Simplier...Approaching late 20s, Normal/Combination Skin, Rarely Breakout now but have some old acne marks, sunspots, & broken caps |
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Thu May 03, 2007 12:09 pm |
I don't want to sound like an alarmist but I shelved my DMAE after reading the article posted by wildcat....Does anyone know if there is any research out there that counters the claim that DMAE causes a pathological reaction in skin cells (swelling of fibroblasts that act as interface between the inside and outside of cells)....Any input from any of the "ingredient masters" out there would be great!
pudoodles |
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Thu May 03, 2007 9:50 pm |
| I am so confused. So we shouldn't use any products containing DMAE, even if the concentration is extremely low? |
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Fri May 04, 2007 5:44 am |
I got this email from PSF..I didn't put in a request..I assume they sent it out to everyone who's bought from the site. For those who didn't get it, here it is:
Thank you for your email. I can completely understand your concern about
this recent
information on DMAE. As soon as we read the excerpt from the abstract, we
purchased the
entire article from the British Journal of Dermatology. Our team of
scientists &
formulators have read the entire article & have discussed it together in
depth. They
have come to the conclusion that this abstract has some serious flaws in
the way it
was executed & they feel that the manner in which the data was assimilated &
reported was very misleading to the lay-reader.
Firstly, this is an abstract - not a study. There are numerous
peer-reviewed, double
blind, placebo-controlled studies that show that DMAE is not only safe for
topical
application, but that it is actually beneficial on a cellular level.
Secondly, there
are obvious discrepancies in the methodology used for this research - the
method in
which the solution was prepared and applied into the rabbit skin is not
commensurate
with how DMAE preparations are applied topically in the cosmetic industry.
We were totally prepared to remove this product from our line if our team
felt that
there was a reasonable level of concern after examining the full scope of the
research presented in this article. They feel that this one abstract was
poorly
executed & that unsubstantiated assumptions were made in regard to the
reason for
the cellular vacuolization. Just because the vacuoles swelled, it does not
mean that
it was due to cytotoxicity. There are numerous reasons why cells can swell
& then
return to their normal size. They are making weak connections between two
possibly
unrelated actions, and assuming that it will result in cell death. It is like
assuming that all abdominal pains are caused by appendicitis. They went
into this
research with a very specific hypothesis that they were looking to
support. And our
team feels that even though this research was executed in a manner that
was weighted
to support that claim, their conclusions still are not sound or convincing.
Our DMAE Gel is a lower price-point item & to be honest is not one of our
best sellers. So if we
felt that there was any danger involved with its continued use, we would
immediately
discontinue this item & replace it with another face firming gel with
alternative
ingredients. However, after taking the research into account, our
scientists do not
feel that there is any need for concern at this time. They would, however,
like to
see more research done on this subject. They hope that future research
done in this
area will incorporate better methodology & that the data analysis will be
assimilated &reported
in a more careful & scientifically sound manner. |
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Fri May 04, 2007 6:19 am |
| Hi marina - I've purchased PSF DMAE twice but I didn't get this email. Thank you so much for posting it -- I really appreciate it! |
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Fri May 04, 2007 8:41 am |
| m.april wrote: |
| Hi marina - I've purchased PSF DMAE twice but I didn't get this email. Thank you so much for posting it -- I really appreciate it! |
A big thanks from me as well, marina! M.april -I immediately thought of you when I heard this info..my heart sank! I am going to continue using my PSF DMAE for now...are you going to continue with it?
Puds |
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Fri May 04, 2007 9:04 am |
I didn't receive the email either, although I've bought this product. But the response doesn't make me feel comfortable about using the product anymore. I understand the concern that there may be some flaws in the study that might lead to a false conclusion that DMAE is not safe. But their response, as I read it, is to say that the study hasn't shown cytotoxicity, only something that is often but not invariably associated with cytotoxicity.
That may be true, but the truth is that PSF has no evidence to show that the vacuole observations are harmless and not connected to cytotoxicity.
So here's what it comes down to: there's a study that demonstrates a disturbing cellular phenomenon that is correlated with serious cellular damage but it may or may not be actually causing such damage. There is absolutely no evidence showing that the cellular changes observed are not a result of
cellular damage. I feel a lot like I did in the 1960's when the tobacco companies were arguing that studies showed only that smoking was correlated with health problems but that there was no actual proof. My feeling then as a teenager was that a possibility of harm was enough to stop me from smoking. And, for me, a possibility that the cellular changes induced by DMAE are harmful is enough to make me disclined to use it. YMMV of course.
But it is a good reminder of the fact that cosmeceuticals are a mixed blessing. The good news is that there are now a number of products that do more for us than just moisturize superficially but actually cause medically observable changes in the skin. The bad news is, we don't have scientific studies conclusively showing how they work and what the long term consequences will be. In effect, we're all guinea pigs, folks. I'm okay with that, or I wouldn't be using any actives at all. I read labels and try to read up on ingredients and, as in this case, make my own cost-benefit analysis that sometimes means that I drop something even when it seems effective. First hydroquinone, now DMAE. Sigh...sure hope they don't come up with any bad news on Vitamin C. |
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Fri May 04, 2007 10:23 am |
| I think we're all guinea pigs by using new products that make big promises, but haven't had a long track record. It's a risk we take when we use anything new..... As long as we take it knowingly. Buyer beware and all. |
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Fri May 04, 2007 12:01 pm |
Hi Pudoodles! - Yes, I still use DMAE occasionally. I've actually cut back on a lot of other potions and treatments I'd been using though since starting a new product, NIA24 Skin Strengthening Complex. Here's what I posted on that other thread about DMAE:
I read this study a while back and admit it gave me pause. But I need to know and understand a lot more, because other skin care ingredients can have a cytotoxic effect. I've only done some brief checking, but for instance, things like hydroquinone, kojic acid, benzoyl peroxide and alcohol can have a cytotoxic effect. This didn't surprise me. But I've also read articles in which l-ascorbic acid is said to have a cytotoxic effect! Plus, I've read that certain phototherapy can be cytotoxic. And anti-bacterial soaps, etc. I'm sure there are more but I haven't really dug into this much. And I don't yet understand in what conditions, or in what ways, or in what applications, or in what amounts it matters. Or if it always matters, or if it only matters sometimes.
So I need some context as well as perspective about this issue. I wish someone who's really knowledgeable about this kind of thing could answer our questions!
Since I posted that, I've read just a little more about cytotoxicity. There are lots of skincare products with ingredients that can be cytotoxic. I've seen various acids that many of us commonly use on lists of cytotoxic substances. Many acne treatments contain cytotoxic ingredients.
It's all so complex and confusing. A cytotoxic effect can be desirable in the case of cancerous cells for instance.
Bottom line, I'll cautiously continue to use products that make my skin look better unless there's widespread concern, like in the case of hydroquinone. |
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