Illegal immigration - do other countries have this problem?
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free skin care · Tue Jul 31, 2007 8:47 am

I know this is a very controversial topic in the United States and I'm not really trying to stir the pot [at least not tooo much! Very Happy

] but I would be interested to know what impact, either positive or negative, illegal immigration has on other countries. I don't necessarily believe what I hear in the media about how other countries deal with this problem; I'd rather hear it from real people who have to live and deal with the problems caused by this issue.

Please note that I am referring to ILLEGAL immigrants, not legal immigrants. My father's father came from Mexico, his mother came from Spain; they taught their children to love their new country and to speak its language. My mother's mother can trace their ancestry back to the Mayflower so I'm certainly a product of legal immigrants and truly believe that a great deal of America's culture and energy is a result of the melting pot that we are. People from all over the world come to live here; they manage to take pride in their newfound American * spam * without having to sacrifice the cultures they left behind.

But living in Southern California, I see with my own eyes the negative impact that ILLEGAL immigrants have on our country. There are pockets in Southern California where no one speaks English and you're really expected to speak Spanish. Shock

WTH? School districts in some areas actually build their holiday schedules around Mexican holidays to accommodate the children of illegal immigrants. Many schools have been forced to lower their standards in order to make allowances for students who don't speak English and the parents who don't encourage their children to learn the language of their new country. Hospitals are closing, going broke by having to treat the children of illegal immigrants; colleges are offering illegal immigrants in-state tuition rates while charging more for legal citizens from other states. So many things are so backwards and what seems very obvious to me is completely ignored by the leaders in this country, it truly boggles my mind.

free skin care · Tue Jul 31, 2007 9:03 am

athena123 wrote:

But living in Southern California, I see with my own eyes the negative impact that ILLEGAL immigrants have on our country. There are pockets in Southern California where no one speaks English and you're really expected to speak Spanish. Shock

WTH? School districts in some areas actually build their holiday schedules around Mexican holidays to accommodate the children of illegal immigrants. Many schools have been forced to lower their standards in order to make allowances for students who don't speak English and the parents who don't encourage their children to learn the language of their new country. Hospitals are closing, going broke by having to treat the children of illegal immigrants; colleges are offering illegal immigrants in-state tuition rates while charging more for legal citizens from other states. So many things are so backwards and what seems very obvious to me is completely ignored by the leaders in this country, it truly boggles my mind.

Um, welcome to Texas! We have the exact same problems. Half the staff at the place I work are illegal...most have no intentions of learning English or becoming legal. I really feel like I have seen both sides of it though, my step mother (who is one of the most hard working, greatest people I know btw) came here illegally before she met my Dad. She now is legal and is working on her * spam *, which makes me very proud. Unfortunately most illegals where I am are not inclined to do this. And really why should they? They get free health care, dont pay taxes and birthright * spam *. Its a major problem in our schools and Medicaid offices. I actually got turned down for medicaid (which I have paid into since I was 15) when I was pregnant because I was WHITE! Mindboggling to say the least.

However, I in no way look down on LEGAL immigrants, they are what make America great...and technically we are all immigrants. I just wish that illegals would understand what negative impacts they are having on America, if you want to come here great! Just do it legally!

I hope this topic can stay a discussion and not turn ugly, I would really like to hear others opinions as well.

free skin care · Tue Jul 31, 2007 5:36 pm

I think all countries experience some kind of influx of illegal immigrants. But some countries, such as ours, experience it more than others. To me, illegal immigration is simply and demographics issue, not a race issue everyone wants to make it out to be.

This video is excellent at explaining how I feel about this issue...very interesting (at least to me..I love demography)! The gum ball demonstration is awesome! lolz...such a dork
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4094926727128068265

eta: not trying to make light of the staggering problems faced by 3rd world countries (which the gum ball demonstration really puts into perspective)...just laughing at myself for being so fascinated by population movement

free skin care · Tue Jul 31, 2007 6:20 pm

I think illegal immigration is much more than a demographics issue. It's economic, it's cultural, it's a question of what kinds of physical borders a country has, and who one's neighbors are, and it's an enforcement issue. The US does not enforce immigration law and has not faced the question of being honest about what the country really wants immigration policy to be. Currently we have a pretense of strict policy on the books, but not in practice.

free skin care · Tue Jul 31, 2007 7:30 pm

melanie haber wrote:

I think illegal immigration is much more than a demographics issue. It's economic, it's cultural, it's a question of what kinds of physical borders a country has, and who one's neighbors are, and it's an enforcement issue. The US does not enforce immigration law and has not faced the question of being honest about what the country really wants immigration policy to be. Currently we have a pretense of strict policy on the books, but not in practice.

I agree MH, this pretense is a huge part of the problem. We have plenty of laws but no one enforces them. In southern CA, police depts are actually discouraged from enforcing them.

It's sad, and anyone who speaks out against illegal immigrants is considered to be "racist". Say what? I'm second generation paternal Mexican taught to love and respect America does that make me racist because I recognize the problems caused by this flood of humanity?

I'm sure my father's family is rolling in their graves whenever illegal immigrant activists start bleating about their "rights". Uh excuse me, but could you please show me the line in the United States Constitution that guarantees that non-citizens have rights? Laughing

Hmmm,

wondering if Canadians are worried about Americans flooding their southern borders, which just may happen if things get too bad in the southern US...

free skin care · Tue Jul 31, 2007 7:34 pm

The area I live in has changed for the worse,the only difference is an influx of illegal people.The same thing with the schools here.I am a Grandmother and I cannot count the times a male of Hispanic descent pulls up to me at a stop sign and will turn his music up startling loud as if he is trying to imtimidate me.I try to ignore it,but it does scare me.
I dont know how to handle that situation.
I believe we are all Gods children.
There are some who want to take what they have not earned.
It is sad.
Linda

free skin care · Tue Jul 31, 2007 7:39 pm

melanie haber wrote:

I think illegal immigration is much more than a demographics issue. It's economic, it's cultural, it's a question of what kinds of physical borders a country has, and who one's neighbors are, and it's an enforcement issue. The US does not enforce immigration law and has not faced the question of being honest about what the country really wants immigration policy to be. Currently we have a pretense of strict policy on the books, but not in practice.

Sorry for not clarifying, but demographics is a tool for explaining a lot of all the issues you brought up...that's why I love it so much. If you watch the video I listed above it covers all of those issues and them some(including the environment).

free skin care · Tue Jul 31, 2007 8:12 pm

skin care addict wrote:

I am a Grandmother and I cannot count the times a male of Hispanic descent pulls up to me at a stop sign and will turn his music up startling loud as if he is trying to imtimidate me.I try to ignore it,but it does scare me.
I dont know how to handle that situation.

I sit in my car with the windows closed and blast my dancehall reggae with the bass turned all the way up. If anyone has tried that with me here in California, I would never even have heard them. (And I'm close to you in age Very Happy

.)

free skin care · Tue Jul 31, 2007 8:27 pm

athena123 wrote:

Hmmm,

wondering if Canadians are worried about Americans flooding their southern borders, which just may happen if things get too bad in the southern US...

Canada has similar worries to ours and has extremely strict immigration policies, unfortunately partly based on the applicants' physical health. The main difference is the economic differential between Canadians and their southern neighbors -- not nearly as sizable as the one between US/Americans and their own southern neighbors.

I am one of the Americans that would like to see some sort of nationalized healthcare in the US. I don't think that is a possibility, however, without a radical change in immigration traffic, especially illegal.

I also can see some sort of soft-level amnesty for current illegals, but not full. That would set a terrible precedent, imo.

free skin care · Wed Aug 01, 2007 10:30 am

Thanks for the good idea MAC 8.
I wish I could watch the video,but I have AOL and dial up.I can never get those to play.
I do hope that our President and Congress can do what is right for the people.
God bless the World.
Linda

free skin care · Thu Aug 02, 2007 6:12 am

melanie haber wrote:

...I am one of the Americans that would like to see some sort of nationalized healthcare in the US. I don't think that is a possibility, however, without a radical change in immigration traffic, especially illegal.
...

The issue of nationalized socialist healthcare may be worthy of a separate thread --- I'd truly hate to see healthcare solely in the hands of government bureaucrats. Sad

And if the United States should go the route of socialized healthcare, where would Canadians go when they need the more intensive medical care not available in Canada? Laughing

free skin care · Thu Aug 02, 2007 6:51 am

Until the issues that cause people to cross are addressed (i.e., foreign economies), there will continue to be an influx of immigrants, legal and illegal, across international boundaries.

Personally, the illegal immigrants themselves are not what concerns me, it is the individuals (we call them "coyotes") that smuggle them and drugs into the U.S.

Hikers, campers, and others are shot and killed in the desert because they come across illegal activity. Illegal immigrants don't kill them. The coyotes do. These poor people (the ones who jump the border) spend thousands of dollars to come across in hope of a better life. The criminals that agree to help them cross commit horrible crimes, either murdering the people they've brought from Mexico or the hiker/camper who happens across the group unexpectedly. Not only do they smuggle people, but drugs, money, and weapons as well.

This is a way of life down here (I'm 50 miles from Mexico). I've seen groups run across the road while I'm driving out the west side of town. Two of my friends came across a group of about 30 a few years ago. Luckily no coyotes were with them or my friends could have been killed.

I'm not sure where I stand on immigration. We cannot have an open door policy, but we can't close the borders either. If the latter had happened 70 years ago, my family would not be here. I have a couple friends from various countries who want nothing more than to become American citizens. They are here as students and are beautiful brilliant people. They want so much to become citizens that one is considering marriage for a green card.

But the U.S. government has no idea what they are doing when it comes to this. A segment wall won't do anything. Completely bordering up the south will not do anything. Plus, physical barriers affect the environment as they force animals to change migration patterns, etc.

Until these governments improve the lives of their citizens, people will always seek a better life for themselves and their families in other countries.

free skin care · Thu Aug 02, 2007 7:11 am

I think a good first step is to simply enforce current immigration laws. The government's current policy is to look the other way, which is ridiculous. We are a country of laws and if we don't enforce them, people will not follow them and the people who DO obey the law suffer.

My parents and I were immigrants and now citizens. We came in legally, and I think everyone should too. This whole issue really tees me off and I wish the government would actually try to do something about it rather than condone it (which, thankfully, failed).

free skin care · Thu Aug 02, 2007 7:29 am

I know that when a couple of my coworkers were on survey and were attacked by coyotes (who luckily didn't have guns) and called Border Patrol...it took BP almost two hours to get there because they just don't care.

They definitely enforce stuff to a point down here. They send hundreds of immigrants back every week to Mexico. We even have special flights from Tucson to Mexico City to take them back. This reminds me of when you get a critter in your yard and animal control traps it, and drives it miles away to dump it in the middle of nowhere in hopes it won't find its way back.... Confused

free skin care · Thu Aug 02, 2007 9:11 am

ParisTroika wrote:

Until the issues that cause people to cross are addressed (i.e., foreign economies), there will continue to be an influx of immigrants, legal and illegal, across international boundaries...

PT, I couldn't agree more - it's too bad that the people in Mexico who only want better lives are at the mercy of the corruption so rampant in their government. And Americans are unfortunately paying the price for the shortcomings of Mexico's government as well. Perhaps all the money the US spends to subsidize illegal immigrants would be better served making things better in Mexico so they wouldn't have to come here for a better life, but again we're stymied by Mexico's corrupt government.

ParisTroika wrote:

...They are here as students and are beautiful brilliant people. They want so much to become citizens that one is considering marriage for a green card...

I agree, most Mexican nationals I meet are beautiful, kind people but most who come across the border under cover of darkness don't aspire to US * spam *. From what I see and hear, they only want to come here to work without fear of deportation. They're not interested in * spam *, they're not interested in learning to speak the language of their new country, they're not interested in assimilating. They want the rights of US * spam * without making the effort of becoming a US citizen; They want to have their cake and eat it too, which is why an amnesty won't work.

ParisTroika wrote:

...
A segment wall won't do anything. Completely bordering up the south will not do anything. Plus, physical barriers affect the environment as they force animals to change migration patterns, etc.

-

Building a fence will be a great start, but enforcing our laws against hiring illegals will be even better. Without the market for jobs, the demand will recede.

free skin care · Thu Aug 02, 2007 9:12 am

skim wrote:

I think a good first step is to simply enforce current immigration laws. The government's current policy is to look the other way, which is ridiculous. We are a country of laws and if we don't enforce them, people will not follow them and the people who DO obey the law suffer.

My parents and I were immigrants and now citizens. We came in legally, and I think everyone should too. This whole issue really tees me off and I wish the government would actually try to do something about it rather than condone it (which, thankfully, failed).

I agree 100% skim - We already have laws to curtail illegal immigration but politicians won't enforce them - I read in the paper that that Nestor Kirchner, president of Argentina says that the U.S. border fence plan is an insult to Mexico and an insult to all of Latin America. And he doesn't think it's an insult when illegal immigrants march the streets of Los Angeles bearing the mexican flag? In Mexico, illegal immigration is a felony yet they deride the United States because we want to protect our borders?

free skin care · Fri Aug 03, 2007 8:41 am

A very offending post resulted in the temporary removal of this thread and has since been removed because racist comments are certainly not welcome nor pertinent to this issue.

I've found most participants in this topic have been very thoughtful, let's keep it that way OK ladies?

Peace,

free skin care · Fri Aug 03, 2007 1:26 pm

Some good points have been made here. I believe that if the IRS and other gov't agencies would start going after the EMPLOYERS of these illegal immigrants, this would have a tremendous impact on the situation. Supply and demand theory.

Fri Aug 03, 2007 7:13 pm

Hi, I am also a product of legal immigration. My father was asked to come to USA because of his research. He is a scientist! He came with $10.00 in his pocket and left his whole family behind. When I finally came here I could not speak a word of English but in 6 months I learned. My father built a nice life for us and he also gave back to the country in technology through his research. We do not have a problem with illegal immigration in my state but I do believe that something should be done about illegal immigration. I can not believe what these people have been allowed to get away with. Any one who comes to USA and decides to live here needs to learn the language of that country and adapt to their school system and their by laws. I do have sympathy for those that are very poor and want a better life but they should do it legally.

free skin care · Sat Aug 04, 2007 8:23 am

Janna wrote:

Some good points have been made here. I believe that if the IRS and other gov't agencies would start going after the EMPLOYERS of these illegal immigrants, this would have a tremendous impact on the situation. Supply and demand theory.

I agree with this. The focus is always on the illegal immigrants themselves because they come here with needs - healthcare, housing, language barrier, etc. The discussion circles around how these people are doing something illegal and how that ought to be stopped. But really, many of us, if we were living in their conditions, we'd do it too - even though it's breaking the law. We're talking about desperate people here.

But if the employers here in the U.S were held accountable - and I mean the big companies too, big corporations - if they were penalized appropriately for employing illegals, the availability of jobs would go away significantly. We, as consumers, would have to pay a bit more for things like OJ from Tropicana, but that is the reality we have to face if we want illegal immigration under control.

It is not just folks running accross the border either...it is truck loads of them - being brought in and essentially kept as slaves to pay back their passage, which they can never do.

I agree it's a problem for the average American citizen, but I think those problems are symptomatic of much deeper problems in our own economic culture.

Betsy

free skin care · Sat Aug 04, 2007 11:24 am

samuel wrote:

Hi, I am also a product of legal immigration. My father was asked to come to USA because of his research. He is a scientist! He came with $10.00 in his pocket and left his whole family behind. When I finally came here I could not speak a word of English but in 6 months I learned. My father built a nice life for us and he also gave back to the country in technology through his research. We do not have a problem with illegal immigration in my state but I do believe that something should be done about illegal immigration. I can not believe what these people have been allowed to get away with. Any one who comes to USA and decides to live here needs to learn the language of that country and adapt to their school system and their by laws. I do have sympathy for those that are very poor and want a better life but they should do it legally.

Good to hear from you Samuel and kudos to your father for instilling his love for learning to you and your family! English is a very difficult language to learn; big kudos to YOU for learning in only 6 months. - America can only be enriched by the experiences you can bring to the table. Very Happy

free skin care · Sat Aug 04, 2007 11:45 am

charlibets wrote:

....But really, many of us, if we were living in their conditions, we'd do it too - even though it's breaking the law. We're talking about desperate people here.

If I were in the same situation I'd probably cross the border as well, but I know I'd be more cognizant of my position as a guest. As a guest, you don't go into someone's home, put your feet up on the coffee table and scream for a cold beer! As a guest, you accomodate your host and don't make claims for that which is not due. The statements and demands made by illegal immigrant activists shame me and shame the people they represent.

charlibets wrote:

...But if the employers here in the U.S were held accountable - and I mean the big companies too, big corporations - if they were penalized appropriately for employing illegals, the availability of jobs would go away significantly. We, as consumers, would have to pay a bit more for things like OJ from Tropicana, but that is the reality we have to face if we want illegal immigration under control. ...

I'm perfecty willing to pay more for my orange juice! Laughing

Mexico is very rich in natural resources [including its people]. I honestly wish there were a way to redirect funds spent in the US to deal with the influx of illegal immigrants to combat the poverty in Mexico; then everyone could win. I guess the question we have to ask, is why is the government so corrupt and how can that be resolved?

free skin care · Sat Aug 04, 2007 12:31 pm

athena123 wrote:

If I were in the same situation I'd probably cross the border as well, but I know I'd be more cognizant of my position as a guest. As a guest, you don't go into someone's home, put your feet up on the coffee table and scream for a cold beer! As a guest, you accomodate your host and don't make claims for that which is not due. The statements and demands made by illegal immigrant activists shame me and shame the people they represent.

I agree with this. But I feel like it is a vocal minority who paint a bad image on most of them. Either that, or the "rights" aspect has been going on so long that it is now expected - so that which we think is not due, is actually due in some minds. I also live near Mexico (New Mexico) and work in a health care setting - the stories I hear are mostly of the desperate variety. There are so many policies that could be set up such that the helping of these people would not always be at the detriment of citizens. Sometimes I think our own govt wants us at each other's throats, rather than seeking a win/win situation for all, or at least most concerned.

athena123 wrote:

I'm perfecty willing to pay more for my orange juice! Laughing

Mexico is very rich in natural resources [including its people]. I honestly wish there were a way to redirect funds spent in the US to deal with the influx of illegal immigrants to combat the poverty in Mexico; then everyone could win. I guess the question we have to ask, is why is the government so corrupt and how can that be resolved.

You might be willing to pay more for OJ, and so would I, but would Tropicana be willing to make less profit? There lies the rub. You might say you'd pay more for OJ, but in the end, you might actually buy less OJ if it was too costly. The companies know this. Sadly, I think we have a situation where people do not want to give up their more comfortable situation so that more people can be better off - and I think it is on both sides of the border. The history of Mexico has it's own component of racism and classism - there is no motivation on the part of those in power to change the status quo as long as they maintain their power, wealth, etc. I also think the U.S. benefits by keeping most of Mexico poor. We have a beautiful neighboring country to visit - think how much more expensive it would be to go there if there were actually a middle class in Mexico - and really, that's the way it should be, but the economies of both our countries would suffer, even if some of us are willing to pay more - neither govt wants that. Also, we have cheap labor for our own country in the form of illegal immigrants - that would go away if we interfere and help Mexico clean up it's own corrupt govt, providing better jobs in their own country. Even for legally established businesses in Mexico - U.S. owned...it is more profitable for us to keep the work force expecting less in Mexico.

I think the answer lies in first answering the question of who profits from the current arrangement - as they say "follow the money". People on both sides of the border, both in govt and business - they are the ones making the money and the decisions - so there is little motivation to provide much more than lip service to changing anything. For example, if we refused to do business in Mexico, or any country with a corrupt govt, maybe change could begin...but we have companies that profit greatly by doing business with corrupt governments that govern oppressed people. And in the U.S., our corporations have a great deal of power and influence.

It is for that reason that I think the wall is a horrible idea. It will not stop illegals from entering, it will interfere with the environment, and it is a throw back to situations like the Berlin wall. I think it sends a message of hostility when folks who could actually do something productive sit back do nothing, or nothing useful.

I agree though that current immigration laws should just be enforced in the first place and that would be something - unenforced laws are pointless. But when an illegal gets busted for working without papers, or a green card, etc on someone's farm, or in their factory, the pain should be felt by that business owner as well. But it's not, and that's why you see another illegal working at the same business not long after one gets deported.

Betsy

free skin care · Sat Aug 04, 2007 12:51 pm

Sundew wrote:

I think all countries experience some kind of influx of illegal immigrants. But some countries, such as ours, experience it more than others. To me, illegal immigration is simply and demographics issue, not a race issue everyone wants to make it out to be.

This video is excellent at explaining how I feel about this issue...very interesting (at least to me..I love demography)! The gum ball demonstration is awesome!

That's an interesting video - he makes a pretty clear point. But as was asked before...what can we really do about conditions in other countries that drive their citizenry out, seeking a better way for themselves here?

Betsy

free skin care · Sun Aug 05, 2007 6:22 pm

We maybe willing to pay for OJ, but will we willing to pay say $10,000 for a new roof instead of $5,000 ? I used to live in Chicago, and anytime I need work to be done around the house and get quotes, the prices vary so much and what I suspect is, one contractor is paying legals and benefits and one is not.

Home repairs are costly budget items and it's really difficult to pay someone $5000 extra for the same work, esp. when you really have no proof they are breaking the law.

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